[pearson424] Fuel Tank Replacement
Philippe Fontaine Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 5:40 PM
Jim and Rich
I'd just like to offer some encouragement that dealing with fuel tank replacement might not be as daunting as one first imagines and can be considered separately from a decision to repower. There is a lot of helpful information in past 424 Newsletters and e-mails.
My tank started to leak in mid season2003 and I managed to get through the season by catching the leakage with oil absorbing pads. After the boat was hauled in the Fall I took several pictures of the engine compartment before disconnecting and tagging all of the electrical wires, hoses, fuel lines and drive shaft. The marina moved the engine for me with their crane. We elected to leave the engine in the boat when it became obvious that getting it out would require removing the transmission.
I had managed the fuel in the tank carefullynear the end of the season so as to run it quite low before the boat was hauled. The remainder was pumped out into gerry cans through the fuel gage opening in the top of the tank with a small hand pump (other owners have siphoned larger quantities through hoses led to cans on the ground).
After disconnecting all the tank connections the actual tank removal turned out to be fairly simple.A Sawsall is the tool of choice to cut the fasteners (which come in from the sides) retaining the fence across the front of the tank. Removal of the front tank support (by removing the wooden wedges under it) allowed the tank to drop a few inches (permitting the pick-up tube boss to clear the mizzen support beam) and the tank slid right out.In my case the tank fit through the companionway so no cutting was required. Some owners were not so lucky. I have attached a sketch I made from my tank for the fabrication of a new tank which might help you determine the situation in your boats.
I obtained four or five quotes on the internet andselected Luther's Welding and Fabrication of Bristol, RI make the new tank. They had the best price and a good reputation with the marina people. They also had one of their employees deliver it to my boat in Connecticut at no charge since they are frequently in the area.
The cost in terms of labor was about two days of my time in the Fall and about the same in the Spring and also a few hours of help from family members for some tasks that are best done by two people (like lifting the old tank out and installing and fastening down the new one). The tank price was $510 (1/3 thicker than the old tank and with an external coating). The marina charges to move the engine in the Spring and Fall and to realign the shaft (I elected to replace engine mounts) was about $250.
  fueltank.jpg
846K
The leak, in my case was not associated with the bronze staples reported by other owners.It occurred at the starboard front corner where the tank was touching the wooden support in an area prone to being wet.Still, it lasted 25 years which I understand is quite good for aluminum tanks.
Good luck,
Phil Fontaine
Lee Thurner Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 8:01 AM

Thanks Phil for the drawing of the fuel tank.It will certainly make life easier when replacement time comes (soon, I'm afraid).It will be most helpful to have a new one standing by when the old one comes out.

Lee
Meridian, No. 139
dkimmel Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 8:16 AM
What no garage??
Carter, Richard Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 8:33 AM
Phil,
That's great! I'll save the drawing for the day I replace the tank. I've been favoring a dual tank arrangement because it would allow greater fuel capacity, but two tanks can lead to twice the headache. I wouldn't consider dual tanks with the W60 because it it such a pain to bleed. If I could make the task of pulling the engine easier, I could replace the tank without feeling compelled to repower at the same time.
I've considered moving the engine myself. If I disconnect the transmission and external components, I could get the engine down to 800lbs. I might be able to lift the engine with a cable winch, set it on rollers and move it out of the way. I've used refrigerator rollers on 2x6" planks to move heavy stuff like this in the past. I'm not sure how strong the cabin floor is, so I don't know if weight would be a problem. Apparently it wasn't an issue for you.
I haven't figured out where to attach the other end of the cable winch. A crossbrace set in the hatch opening sounds easy enough, but I don't want to risk damaging the deck. I think I'd have to spread the load. If I built some kind of frame above the hatch to spread the load around, I see no reason that I shouldn't be able to lift the engine in place, slide planks and rollers under it, and roll it out of the way. I could hire a crane as I did in the past, but that presents its own set of problems.

Rich Carter

Lee Thurner Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 12:06 PM

Richard,When I removed my W-58 to correct some leaks and change out the engine mounts (as well as to do extensive upgrades to the soundproofing in the engine box) I just set it on a piece of plywood in the floor of the aft stateroom. I lifted it using a 1 ton come-along (cable winch) hung from a piece of maple 2x4 across the companionway opening. I used a 4-part handy-billy (actually my spare preventer) attached to the mast to pull the load forward enough to set it down clear of the engine beds.Photo attached is of it hanging before it was set down.

 

Engine 0ut 2
When Harry Robb (past owner of SHAY, Hull No. 90) and I replaced his fuel tank that?s the way we handled his W-60. Phil?s experience was similar to ours except that we had to remove the trim around the companionway to get the tank out . Harry?s solution was not a new fuel tank, but 1/8? aluminum plates welded to the outside of his existing tank on the sides and bottom, because that?s where his pinhole leaks were (the old copper staple problem) and then he had the whole thing coated with Awlgrip.And we did away with the copper staples.J

Good luck. And I'd still like a picture of that cockpit table.Lee

Meridian, Hull No. 139

Carter, Richard Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 2:20 PM
Well, your experince indicates that the deck area around the hatch should have no problem with the weight of the engine and I'm hearing the same thing about the sole.
Do you know if there are problems welding the old tank? I've always heard that you can't have one welded because of fumes in the tank. My tank looks pretty good. If it can be patched I see no reason to replace it.
I pulled my transmission a coulple of years ago and had it rebuilt. There's a few bolts to disconnect then it comes right off. It's very heavy, but I can lift it without hurting my back if I use my legs. I'd guess about 130lbs. I'd disconnect it before lifting the engine.
I have a spare W60 engine I bought from Jack Tyler a couple of years ago when he repowered. I've moved that engine around in my garage a few times using refrigerator rollers. These are plastic rollers sold at most hardware stores for the purpose of making it easier to move your refrigerator in and out for cleaning. There's nothing wrong of course with your approach using the block and tackle to jocky things around. As I mentioned earlier, I place the rollers under the engine and use 2x6's as a surface to roll things on. I'd probably only have to lift the engine a few inches to clear the mounts, then roll it forward out of the way. The spare engine is mounted to a pallet. Clearly there isn't room for a pallet on the floor in the aft cabin. I'd have to make a smaller frame or perhaps lag bolt something for the rollers to mate with, maybe a pair of2x4s where the mountsattach. I probably couldn't move it forward very much, the door frame is too narrow.

Rich Carter

Lee Thurner Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 3:54 PM
Rich,

There's no problem welding on fuel tanks if they are purged of combustible vapors first.This can be done by filling it with nitrogen or, if it's out of the boat and leakage won't compromise welding, by filling it with water.

Unless you're going to take the engine out of the boat, I'd recommend leaving the transmission attached to it. Assuming you have the tools, there isn't a great deal of difference between lifting 550 pounds of engine and 680 of engine and transmission, but removing the transmission takes time and effort that you really don't need to expend.

Lee
Meridian, Hull No. 90

Lee Thurner Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 5:04 PM

Rich,

The W58 and the W60 are physically the same size-one would assume they'd be similar in weight too.I admit I really don't know what my engine weighs but I vaguely remember being told that it was 550 pounds. This was in the context of a discussion of repowering with a dealer at a boat show. He told me I could save about 100 pounds by changing to a current equivalent Westerbeke model that (if I recall correctly) weighed 450 pounds dry.

At any rate, when we removed Harry's engine (a W60) it was with the transmission attached, and I recall it being about the same bulk as mine.I did all my work alone and didn't have any difficulty maneuvering my engine around the aft stateroom.

Re: your vibration problem for the v-drive to move in relation to the fiberglass mounting pan, wouldn't there have to be slop in the holes (in the fiberglass)?There shouldn't be any adjustment should be taken on the pieces that bolt to the pieces that bolt to the fiberglass. If there is excess play in those holes, could you bush them, or alternatively just fill them with fiberglass and re-drill new ones?

Lee
Hank Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 9:21 PM
  w60.pdf
3164K
Westerbeke data refers to weight of710 to 735 pounds. See attached brochure.
Hank Sarkis
Lighthouse Point, FL
Pearson 424 Ketch SHAY, #90
Carter, Richard Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 8:46 AM
I stand corrected on the weight. I was quoting from memory using the shipping weight of the spare engine I bought.
The W64 weighs in at 678 lbs. I like the option of having dual alternators, and the torque range is similar to the W60. It is likely an easier job to drop this in.
The yanmar 75hp weighs in at 483 lbs. I like the extra power. It has a very good reputation. This is a faster turning engine, so there may be issues with the drive train. I can pick this up at a significant discount.
Westerbeke has the 71 of course too, but this is a faster turning engine like the Yanmar.
Westerbeke also sells an 82, which is the same engine as the 64, but rated at a higher RPM. The only physical difference is the fuel system. This might be the best bet if I could get a good price. The list price is $2600 higher than the W64. It's probably overkill, but it sure would be nice to have the ability to run at hull speed with power to spare.
There's quite a difference in weight. I'd rather go with a lighter engine, but each have advantages. If I were to purchase a replacement, I'm planning to go with a simpler control panel, just tach, key, and idiot lights with alarm. I'd mount this within reach of the helmsman. I'm thinking of some kind of instrument pod under the wheel hub. I'd buy aftermarket instruments for water temp, oil pressure, fuel level, and alternator(s) charge rate and mount them in the same stupid spot the instruments are now. I've had false instrument readings from bad senders in the past. Having dual sensors sound like a good feature.
Regarding the vibration problem. I don't think we are counting on tight holes as a means of insuring that the v-drive can't walk. They'd have to be precision drilled. Fiberglass just doesn't lend itself to those kinds of tolerances. If the v-drive is walking, it could either be the pan mounts or the side brackets that are at fault. I'm bringing a breaker bar down this weekend to torque down the side mounts and I'll see what I can do with the pan fasteners. I'll have to be careful about overtightening things. There's no torque spec on either of these. Tighter than they are now sounds right.

Rich Carter

edwin.merrick Fri, Jul 8, 2005 at 9:20 PM

Hi All,

Fortunately Indulgence was in a boat yard when it was time to remove the engine. It cost $100 to have it lifted out and $100 to have it put back in. I bought a lifting bar for about $40. The cost of the bar and the yard crane was money well spent. It is relatively easy to remove the transmission. I have done it three times including this spring to fix a ATF leak caused by my reuse of an "O" ring. It wasn't the cost, but the availability, that caused this mistake. Some perma-gasket fixed it. I have put some hours on it in the last two weeks with no leak. Anyway I took the transmission out, put the sealer on the "O" ring, pressure tested the transmission and replaced in in one afternoon. It is even easier if the engine is already lifted. You need a short 11/16 open end wrench to get at the bottom two nuts if the engine is in place. Everything else is operable with regular tools. Of course I have replaced all the fasteners with stainless so I am not fighting rusted bolts. When removing the engine it is easier to remove the transmission, alternator, raw water pump, and head, first. They are all coming off for a rebuild any way. The W-58 went through the companionway relatively easily. It just tilts a lot which the lifting bar makes easy.

Indulgence is light in the stern. I don't fill the bow water tank for this reason. I an thinking that a lighter engine would make this worse. If on the other hand one has an AC generator engine sitting in the lazerette as I have seen, a lighter engine might be an advantage.


Regards,
Ed