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Windlass Conversations through the years(still really rough - ) From: Thatcher Stone Dear Friends, when I bought the Wavemaker 3 years ago, she came with a windlass that was almost dead, and 5/8ths chain, and on the second anchor, 1-2 chain followed by appropriate line. The Windlass, called a Sea Lion, is no longer made. I had very poor luck getting it to work properly. I often thought the 5/8ths chain was too heavy. This winter I have two projects. I am going to remove and rebed my stanchions and other deck hardware, and I am going to replace my windlass and chain on the first anchor. If you have had good luck with your windlass and chain combination on our vessel, I'd like to hear about it. I will need to make a decision before February. Thanks. And happy holidays to all. Thatcher A. Stone
Hi Thatcher, I'm happy with my windlass and chain combination. I use 200 feet of 5/16" G-4 (high-test) with a 44-pound Delta anchor, and the windlass is a Simpson-Lawrence Pacific 1500. I don't think they sell that one any longer but they make another one that's comparable in configuration and power. I wrote up my windlass install for the newsletter some time ago. Let me know if you need more info. Lee Thurner
David From: Thatcher Stone Thanks. Separate batteries? If so how many?
Since I have also installed a bowthruster, I have a separate battery
installed in the bow behind the water tank. I'll see if I can find more
pictures.
2005From: RBowron Alan, I did have to fabricate a spacer plate to raise the windlass about one inch to make sure the chain did not scrape the bow sprit. I used a good grade of marine ply and used West epoxy and a thin fiberglass covering to make a nice match to the deck. Finally, I had stainless steel plates made to cover the portion of the bow sprit where the chain runs. While there is no interference when the chain is tight, it is normal for the chain to whip a bit on raising the anchor and the stainless plates prevent damage to the teak. This is just my solution, but I'm very happy with it. Sandy Bowron
From: alan P I looked up the windlass you mentioned. I see what you mean abou the motor placement. They only mention up to a 1000 watt motor, was yours a special option? Nice and compact compared to others I've seen. I have the Tigres now(manual). Dumb question... The port gypsy looks to be for ropeonly, or can you use a little bit of chain on it? alan
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:17:30 -0700 (PDT) The only windlass I could find that fit between the anchor locker and the bow was a Muir Cheetah No. 4465. We have used this unit all through the caribbean for six years with good results. It is critical that you order the gypsy that matches your chain and then test it before you go anywhere. In 1986 I ordered a manual windlass and chain from the same supplier and found out at anchor in a deserted area that they did not match and had to raise the anchor by hand. I have the windlass mounted on the bow platform and on a raised block bolted thru the chain locker forward of the anchor well. The boat is in Venezuela or I would send you a picture. I did send a picture to the Pearson 424 newsletter seveal years ago if you can track it down. I also sometimes use an anchor with combined chain and rope and this windlass has a rope gypsy also for that and for hauling me up the mast. Jim Roberts
Hi, Alan, Good luck. Mary E. Springhorn Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 06:07:17 -0700 I suppose there's no subject that can generate more strong opinions than anchoring. Here's my two-cents. I installed a Lofrans Tigress in 1986 when I bought my 424. It has proven to be a reliable and valued addition. I anchor frequently, and sleep well with my setup. The unit comes with different gypsies for specific chain sizes. It has a manual handle to allow emergency operation if the motor or power fails. It also had a reversing option which lets you run the gypsy backwards to lower the chain. Link to defender web page Picture
of my setup. I use a double-roller arrangement with a 44 lb bruce and 250 feet of 3/8" HT chain. The windlass has two gypsies in a horizontal orientation, chain to starboard and line to port. You can work them independently by releasing the clutch on the chain. The windlass is mounted on a 6" teak pad. I cut the chain locker hatch to clear the motor. Chain is fed through deck to the chain locker. I keep about 100 feet of chain below for normal anchoring and feed the remaining through a section of pipe glassed through to the forpeak. If offshore, I can drop the entire chain below and cap the pipe off. (BTW: I recommend sealing the chain locker bulkhead under the toe-rail before taking the boat offshore! Inexpensive spray foam insulation works well enough.) The bruce uses a special roller that is designed to lock the anchor on the roller when stored. This is a nice feature because the anchor can't slip off the roller when in rough conditions. The port roller can be used for a second anchor. I keep a 60 lb fortress with 7/8 inch anchor line as a storm anchor. The bruce holds well in a variety of bottom conditions. It isn't well suited to heavy weed or mud. I have a stainless jaw-jaw swivel where the chain connects to the anchor. This is needed to allow the anchor chain to rotate as it is raised over the roller. The rollers won't take the load of the anchor. I use a section of line with a chain hook for the purpose of snubbing the chain while at anchor. I wouldn't trust the windlass to hold the weight of the boat either.=20 The windlass is wired directly to the battery switch through a breaker using 2-0 gauge wire. I used houshold copper service wire and spliced a short section of smaller automotive wire at the end where it is wired to the deck switches and motor. Battery cable can be very expensive for this long a run. The genic wire I used is the same stuff used to bring AC service into your hose from the pole. It is very stiff, but inexpensive. You can use a nicopress tool to swage terminals this large. There are two deck switches and a remote control switch mounted on the binnicle. The windlass won't pull the boat up to the anchor. You have to motor up to the anchor while raising the chain. The chain won't feed below into the forpeak without help. It builds a chain castle which has to be knocked down. The same is true for the anchor locker. I usually raise the anchor by having someone run the windlass while I run the engine. I motor up toward the anchor while the deck hand pulls the chain aft in the locker as it is raised. I run over the anchor which pulls it free from the bottom. The windlass then raises it the rest of the way. Watch your hands and feet while operating the winch. You could easilly lose a finger or toe. About the Lofrans, the unit works well and is well suited to the 424. If I had it to do again, I would pick the same unit and mount it the same way. I would cut the chain locker hatch a little different however. The way I cut it, the fairlead that runs though the hatch is not useable. I'd recommend using a cheap piece of plywood or cardboard to experiment on different cuts before committing by cutting the hatch. I bought the reversing model. It makes some operations a little easier, so I recommend it. I could live without it if cost is an issue. The remote option makes raising the anchor while single handed a lot easier. If you have help while anchoring, you don't need it. The motor isn't well sealed from moisture. I've had to open the motor up every few years to clean corrosion off the brushes. This is fairly easy. The deck switches that Lofrans provided weren't very good and had to be replaced after a few years. The horizontal gypsy only leaves 90 degrees of contact with the chain. This isn't optimal. The chain can slip a link while raising. A vertical unit with 180 degrees would work better, but the installation is more complicated and they are more expensive. Rich Carter I just installed a Lewmar Sprint 1500 anchor windlass with I think 5-16' chain. It has up and down foot switches with an option for a helm switch too. The power breaker for the separate batteries is in the forward cabin. The installation required some adjusting of prior changes made to the original deck, which were made to accommodate a now defunct Sea Lion windlass installed at delivery in I think 1981 or 82. My yard looked at all the prior postings here and did a FAB job (Point Judith Marina, RI). Not only is this windlass powerful enough to pull the boat up to the anchor, but it raises my giant 60 pound danforth easily. It also has a drum or gypsy on top to take up the rope on my other anchor. I do have to play with the chain as it comes in, because my locker is smaller (shallower)than standard, for some reason. As long as I pull chain towards the stern end of the locker every 25 feet or so with a boat hook, it runs like a charm. If it piles up under the drum in the locker, the teeth lose tension and it fails to operate. I anchor a lot at both Block Island and in Three Mile Harbor, East Hampton, and in the first month of use have found this unit to be spectacular. It used to take forever to raise my anchor either with the sea lion or by hand. Now I just step on the switch, and away she goes. I have also found that by using the down switch I can avoid piling of chain and poor anchor settings when setting the anchor. As the boat drifts backwards in irons, I slowly lay out 7 times depth in rode. Very easy not to pile the chain when Sir Isaac Newton is not in control. I am sure other units also are good. I just wanted to weigh in (ha ha) and say, I had no particular agenda, and this unit appears to be fabulous. Thatcher A. Stone
I take it, that with any of the set ups.... the 2nd anchor is going to rope because of the drum on the "port" (other) side? alan.phillips _/) Live Slow - Sail Kinda Fast From: cada grove Thatcher, Anyway you could get a photo and send out - I am not happy with my windlass... Cada Grove
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:11:17 -0400 It goes down below the deck surface. Not sure, think that was already done for the Sea Lion. 2nd anchor always was rope. Drum is on top. Chain comes in to Starboard. Thatcher A. Stone From: Jack Tyler
Good question, Alan. Because 424's were designed and built with a fairly 'weekend-type' anchoring set up - and little thought to heavy lifting with electric windlasses - we've seen many different brands in many different configurations. The one design challenge that seems to generate the most head scratching is how to have the chain fall cleanly to the aft end of the forepeak (so someone doesn't have to be down below, capsizing the chain) while in turn placing the windlass where the strength of its mounting is unquestioned. This is a more challenging issue for someone with your cruising plans than it might at first appear. In our case, as you might recall when visiting us in London, we use a Sea Tiger 9555 manual and we have the unquestioned structural mounting but lack the automatic chain capsizing...and or course, I must crank whereas you are looking to eliminate that in favor of an electric unit. Don't overlook the discussion on the SSCA BB (www.ssca.org) about the mounting and powering of windlasses; I found it helpful. The debate about 'windlass battery forward' vs. 'using the house bank aft' is also worth some careful thought. Neither option is without its complications, add'l accessories (all of which live in inhospitable envrionments) and cost. Given a 424's trim & displacement, and the strength inherent in HT chain, I think 5/16" HT chain was the right choice for us and I would not consider moving up in size (and therefore weight). I would especially stick with this chain size if I was looking at the Pacific, where I might want to double the chain length of our #1 rode. Jack Tyler
it appears that there is a variety of installations out there. I am going to have to log all te pros and cons and decide what i want. Thanks for your pictures. Here is the picture you wanted of my new windlass installation. You can
see the up switch on the deck just aft of the ventilation scoop. The down switch is forward of the scoop. This is a powerful trouble free windlass. I have had no issues with it at all. The chain coming out of the locker is for the second anchor which is mostly line, after a chain leader/rode. The 2nd anchor is NOT connected to the windlass except by turning the rope on the gypsy. The chain 'round the windlass goes down a pipe in to the locker. If the chain piles up on retrieve, the windlass will lose its catch: we move the chain back in the locker with a boat hook, and then drop the anchor a foot, then retrieve again. Two batteries are in the forward wet locker below the anchor locker. A switch/breaker is in the forward cabin. The system has an option to add a helm switch. On the whole a very excellent installation. Thanks to other members who earlier this year uploaded their drawings and photos. Kudos to Pt. Judith Marina, Wakefield, RI, for a flawless installation. Thatcher Stone
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 04:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Thanks for the picture. Did you build up the height of the windlass to
lineup the chain or make room for the windlass motor?
Looks like a very nice installation! Raising the winch on a platform brings in inline with the bow roller. Rich Carter
As long as the anchor is turned the right way on retrieve, it just falls right over the roller and in to place. Very easy. Thatcher A. Stone Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 08:58:25 -0400
Thatcher A. Stone Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:13:00 -0700 Rich Carter 2006From: Sommer, John Hello all! I am investigating upgrading the Windlass on Indulgence....I would welcome you thoughts on a brand and type. Any suggestions? I will be looking for a gypsy/drum combination. I have a 45 lb CQR and will be converting to all chain. Thanks in advance for your help. John Sommer Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:16:51 -0700 John Your question is similar to asking people about religion or politics. Most people have very firm convictions about what the proper anchor system is. There are many solutions that work, some simple and inexpensive and some elegant and expensive. You have to ask yourself what problem you are trying to solve and how much it is worth. In my case, I wanted to keep the cost down and keep things simple, but I wanted an anchoring system that was reliable and that I could work alone. http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=3D-1|10391|29596|321924&id=3D175=439 http://www.richardcarter.net/My_Homepage_Files/Page15.html This solution is relatively inexpensive and simple to install, but has
a
You should be aware that the cable necessary to power something like this from your house batteries is expensive (several hundred dollars). One would assume that you would purchase new anchor chain too, so there's another boat unit. Rich
Thanks Rich, I appreciate your detailed reply. Looks like I'll need to budget 2+K for the installation. The Pearson 424 website has some nice pictures of Windlass installations, I can use those as models. Thanks again. John
John, I installed my windlass with Lee helping with the design. Pretty much a two weekend job and if you have the time it can easily be done on your own for far less then 2K. David
Has anyone researched the Powerwinch, model 46, for the P424? I am attracted to the freefall feature. Jim Ashworth
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:16:17 -0700 Jim I can't speak about this particular winch, but it looks tiny. The specs show that the largest is rated for 18A, that's about 230watts, as compared with the 1200W motor on the Lofrans I have. Many consider my installation to be too small. FYI, I can freefall drop my anchor too. I have to go up to the windlass and disengage the clutch to drop that way. I can also pull it in by hand using a backup hand leaver in case the motor fails. It would take forever to pull the anchor in that way, but it beats calling Towboat-US. Regards
From: John Sommer David, Thanks for the reply. Doesn't a windlass that could pull 100' of chain
and a 45lb CQR cost around 2K? The Tigres that Rich has a list of 2K.
Is there a cheaper alternative that works? I was planning on doing it
myself...I really do like Lee's installation with the chain going down
to the lower John
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:58:44 -0400 adding to Rick Carter's comments. I too used "only" 2/0 wire for a 100 amp windlass motor. I should have used welding machine wire because it is much easier to run. I would recommend both a fore and aft capability for windlass operation. The control switch should be a double pole single throw - one side momentary - with both poles wired together in order to give maximum control. I am using a 2 anchors on rollers to a vertical capstan each with 50' of 3/8" chain to nylon rodes.
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:16:49 -0700 Lee I ended up using a short run of smaller and more flexible cable between the foot-switches/solenoids and the motor because the larger stuff wouldn't fit inside the motor housing. That's OK though. Power isn't like water pipe. You can use a small length of smaller wire without risking problems. You want to avoid long lengths of small wire because of the power loss over distance though. Rich
From: david kimmel Having an additional battery bank for the bow thruster and the windlass saved on the long cable runs... Has worked great so far. I misunderstood about the 2K. I thought you were going to pay 2k to have someone install it.. I'll double ceck what I paid for mine. I would have liked a bit bigger unit. However it has worked fine so far. I still use the boat to pull up to the anchor and use the windlass to just pull the chain up and not break the anchor loose... If the windlass fails you it has a wench handle to retrieve the chain manually not something I wish to ever have to do.. DAvid
David Rich
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:17:23 -0400 I used a maxwell 1200 vertical and am very happy after 7 seasons. I did the cable installation from the engine batteries and ran 00 welding cable directly up to the motor (and foot switch). Plenty of power at the windlass, and the welding cable was a steel at about $2.00 per foot, plus, as mentioned, it is very pliable and easy to work with. As I recall, one of the hardest thins was lugging 80 feet of the cable up a ladder onto the boat--it weighed a ton!! Of course, you must build up the windlass base so that a fair lead for the anchor rode is achieved. Good Luck! Rodd Leeds
I checked I got my windlass from Defender back in 2002. It is a Sprint 1500 and cost $1994.95 DAvid
I use a Tigress Manual windlass. It was about $350 used. It is a lot of work to anchor in deep water, but no problem in water less than about 30 feet. That is where I do most of my anchoring, so it is not a problem for me. Most of the time I am on moorings anyway. I saw pictures of one windlass installation that intrigued me. I think it was Steve Sears' boat? Anyway, he had an electric windlass in the bilge, and a manual windlass on the bow. Both were on the same chain, and could be used to assist each other. The main advantage was that the chain was all stored in the bilge. That seems very advantageous to me.
Thanks to all for your help...I very much appreciate your suggestions. John
I put a Muir horizontal windlass on Revery in year 1999 before we left for Trinidad and we use it to raise the dinghy alongside, put our 10'2" hardbottom dinghy on deck for storage, and take me or others up the mast when necessary. This was the only winch which would fit between the headstay and the chain locker. Its been great and when I get back to the boat I will take a picture and note the model. I do remember its a 1200 watt unit. Jim Roberts, Revery |
From:
David Kimmel