Forums General Discussion Repower HP- opinions wanted

This topic contains 31 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Dennis Home 2 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #222444

    Andrew Franklin
    Participant

    First I’m glad the resource exists- there’s not a lot of old Pearson info available online.

    We own a Pearson 419 (hull #10), the direct predecessor to the 424. Same hull, center cockpit Ketch layout.

    Our engine is the original 50hp Nissan SD22 4 cylinder diesel (marinized by Chrysler, can’t remember their model number). 2.2 liter brick of an engine, straight shaft through a velvet drive trans. It’s old and tired, and I think it was underpowered when new.

    I’m looking to repower and upgrade. We are a heavy cruising boat, sitting 5″ below the original 5’3″ waterline. I want an all conditions power cruising speed of 6-7 knots. Currently we are down to 4 knots in any kind of head sea.

    Is 65ish hp adequate? 75? 85? I’m curious what the general consensus is. Also, this was ordered as a great Lakes boat so I’ve only got tankage for 70 gallons currently, but I can add a 50 gallon tank relatively easily if needed to maintain range.

    Thanks!

  • #222445

    Tor
    Participant

    Dear 419,

     

    IMHO, 50hp isn’t necessarily “underpowered” for these boats, even when loaded for cruising as mine is. My 54hp Yanmar has provided plenty of power in all circumstances during 8 years of Caribbean cruising. For me, a bigger engine would’ve been a waste of resources.

    Assuming a fairly clean boat bottom & prop and reasonable compression in that old Nissan of yours, if you’re only getting 4 knots to windward from a 50hp engine, I’d be looking at the propeller size & especially its pitch as the likely cause, not the horse power.

     

    If the 70-gallon tankage you mentioned is for fuel, its adequacy depends on your sailing plans. For long-term, long-range cruising I’d want more, myself. For world cruising, definitely. Although I sail whenever I can, I’m not a purist when it comes to using the engine. 424’s don’t point very high, but they make excellent motor-sailors very close on the wind with the engine just ticking over in forward as an assist. Overall, the way I cruise, Silverheels’ build-in 80-gallon fuel tank sometimes isn’t enough. So I carry another 30-45 gallons of diesel fuel in jerry jugs, and have occasionally used most of them up on long passages.

     

    Have fun,

     

    Tor

    ——————

    Silverheels 424#17

    http://www.silverheels.us

    424@silverheels.us

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  • #222446

    john stevenson
    Participant
    I repowered with the same 54 HP engine as Tor, and find it more than adequate for the 424.  I gives me about the same performance as the original W60. 

  • #222449

    Ben Frothingham
    Participant
    Papaya has a 2006 (?) 4JH3-TE Yanmar 75hp. with about 800 hrs.  Since I just got her I'm not sure how she performs in a variety of conditions but the hp definitely seems adequate and I am thrilled to have a newer and quieter engine, in comparison to my historic ownership of older engines of various types.

    I am more concerned about the prop selection. 
     – She came with a 20″ 3-bladed fixed prop. 
     – I really don't like the free-wheeling under sail – just seems like a lot of unnecessary wear and tear on the running gear.
     – Plus, the V-drive (at least I think it's the V-drive) is noisy when free-wheeling, which I suspect means I am heading for a rebuild.
     – I would like a max-prop but boy are they expensive.
     – I am curious about shaft brakes but don't have direct experience – reliability, cost, installation hassles, operation hassles etc.
    Happy to hear from anyone on these subjects as well.
    Cheers, Ben

  • #222450

    RichCarter
    Participant

    Ben,

    The 424 came with a shaft-brake.  A previous owner must have removed it.  These brakes are no longer in production.  I don’t know what options are available for retrofitting a brake.  If you repower with a folding or feathering prop, a brake may not be necessary.

     

    I have the same engine.  If you haven’t read my notes, please read this.  You should check that the gear ratios are correct for this installation.  To do this right, you need to change the gear ratio to about 2.5:1 so that you don’t cavitate at high power settings.  This either means using a different transmission than the original velvet drive (1:1 gear ratio) or a different V-drive (2:1 gear ratio).  You should reach a full cruising speed of about 7kts at 2700 RPM.  The engine redlines at about 3800 RPM with a max speed of about 7.8 kts.  If the gear ratios are incorrect, you’ll reach cruising speed at about 2200 RPM and may not be able to run the engine much faster.  This is bad for the engine.   You can check the gear ratio by turning the drive shaft one turn and observing how many turns the prop shaft turns.

     

    http://www.richardcarter.net/repower/

     

    Rich

     

  • #222451

    RichCarter
    Participant

    To add to my previous post…

     

    50 HP is probably adequate.  You should be able to punch through headseas and headwinds.  The original W60 that came with my boat was actually 50HP and did well.  Under normal circumstances, I would expect you to be powering at about 6.3 kts upwind.  Performance might be a little less with poor conditions, perhaps a bit under 6 kts.  You should check your propeller and gear ratios as I suggested.

     

    So why go with a bigger engine than 50HP?  The larger engine lets you throttle back to a more comfortable engine speed when cruising, making 7 kts at a comfortable throttle setting instead of 6.  The cost of the engine is perhaps less than half the cost of a full repower so adding a couple of grand to the total cost isn’t that significant.  There are more expensive things to consider.

     

    Rich

     

  • #222452

    Tor
    Participant

    Ben,

     

    I still use the original 20″ 3-blade prop, but had it re-pitched (twice) when I re-powered to get it right: 20LH11 = 20″ dia., left-hand, 11″ pitch. It’s excellent, but of course it creates some drag when sailing.

     

    I agree with your assessment of free-wheeling. Early on I installed a Shaft-Lok, which is the only mechanism I know of for dealing with this. When it works, it’s great, but I’ve had a lot of problems with mine, including any parts replacements over the years and one total replacement of the whole unit several years ago. The owner of the little mom-&-pop Shaft-Lok company, a former cruiser himself, is very, very helpful and a super-nice guy. He insists my troubles with my Shaft-Lok are extremely unusual, even unique, and I’m inclined to believe him. It’s possible my installation isn’t true. I don’t know.

     

    The Shaft-Lok installation is a bit of a chore. You’ll probably want to attach it to the jack-shaft (between the transmission and the V-drive), as I did, as opposed to the prop shaft, which is too hard to reach for maintenance, etc. I cut a small access panel in the cabin sole above my Shaft-Lok to facilitate installation and maintenance. You can check them out, and costs, at their website. It’s a lot less expensive than a Max-Prop.

     

    Tor

    ——————

    Silverheels 424#17

    http://www.silverheels.us

    424@silverheels.us

    ——————

     

     

  • #222459

    serendipity 81
    Participant
    Ben..I have the 20 3 blade setup on Serendipity along with a hydraulic prop brake which applies in neutral and releases in gear locking pads onto a disc rotor via a small cylinder connected to the transmission.
    I love the push and pull with the fixed prop, but dragging around a 20 inch trash can lid does hinder performance under sail. 
    Serendipity came with this set up. If I had to fork out for a new brake setup and the installation, I would take a hard look at a folding prop, especially if I was planning for distant shores.
    Chad 
    Serendipity 
    Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    ——–
  • #222462

    Andrew Franklin
    Participant

    Thanks for the info so far. If a lot of people are content with 50hp I might go with a Beta 60 (58 hp) replacement.

    My current engine is original (1974) save a supposed rebuild in 1982 – no documentation on the rebuild. 4500 hrs indicated. Prop is 20″ Michigan 3 blade but I don’t know the pitch.

    Max torque is 1700 rpm. I can run all the way to redline (2500 rpm) but over 2000 rpm I start burning a little oil.

  • #222465

    Ben Frothingham
    Participant
    Thanks to all on the prop and shaft brake issue. I will either bite the bullet and get the max-prop or I will get a shaft brake.

    I have an interesting situation with respect to the V-drive. When I took ownership the boat and headed up to the Chesapeake from Beaufort in September, the engine was running a little hot. Turned out to be that the water jacket in the V-drive was almost completely hard packed with some kind of black muck. Since I had to go back to work I never saw this stuff as the yard cleaned it out and restored proper raw-water flow.
    When I first got her, having never had a V-drive, I checked the oil daily. It looked nice and clean. After the yard cleaned out the jacket I kept checking and noticed it getting milky – uh oh, emulsified oil. Did the yard puncture? was the muck plugging holes? I don't know but made a decision not to get into a battle over it….karma and all that.
    So, I'm thinking it's time to get this rebuilt and called Walter Gear in NJ about their rebuild service. They said if the jacket is leaking they won't touch it. The rebuild of the RV20 would probably cost around $1,500 – a new RV20 would cost around $3,000.
    I asked the Walter guy about running it without raw water cooling because of the many testimonials from other owners that they bypassed the cooling system and it was fine – he laughed and said terrible idea – if they didn't need cooling they wouldn't build them that way, great way to start a fire, etc… Sales pitch? liability avoidance? Who knows!
    So, now I have a V-drive that the cooling jacket is likely compromised and is noisy when free-wheeling. I also have a spare that came with the boat – it aint pretty but I'm completely uncertain of internal condition. And now, Rich mentions using the RV26 to change the reduction from 2:1 to 2.5:1.
    Any great ideas? Sorry for the long, rambling post.
    Ben
    Papaya (#81)

  • #222466

    Tor
    Participant

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    I seem to recall another 424 owner here repairing his leaky V-drive water jacket with epoxy.

     

    Tor

    ——————

    Silverheels 424#17

    http://www.silverheels.us

    424@silverheels.us

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  • #222469

    RichCarter
    Participant

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    The crusty crud inside the cooling jacket is rust.  It may not look like rust, but that’s what it is.  The thing corrodes from the inside, thinning the wall of the cooling jacket until it rusts through, allowing water to seep into the gear case.  The oil will turn a chocolate color when this happens.  You can’t rebuild an RV-20.  Spare cases are no longer available.  If you ignore the problem it will eventually seize up.

     

    When this happened to mine many years ago, I cleaned and epoxied the cooling jacket using Marine Tex.  It was a lot of work to clean the inside, taking about 8 hours of chipping and grinding to clean it down to bare metal.  It can be done but it’s not easy work.  The lid is probably rusted too.  You can replace that however.  Pay special attention to the area around the dip-stick.  The wall is thinnest there.

     

    Replacing the V-drive is not trivial.  The RV-26 is not quite a drop-in replacement and it’s an expensive retrofit.  Read my notes.

    http://www.richardcarter.net/repower/Vdrive.html

     

    Some owners have bypassed the cooling jacket.  I suppose this might work if you don’t run the thing hard.  I can say that even with cooling my RV26 runs warm when cruising.  If you bypass the cooling jacket, I recommend putting a high-temperature alarm on the thing.  This could just be an automotive thermostatic switch that is used for hot engine alarms.  Hook this into your main engine alarm; cheap insurance.

     

    Rich

     

  • #222470

    RichCarter
    Participant

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    One more thing…

    If you do replace the V-drive, this is the time to consider the gear ratio change.  You should have a discussion with the prop manufacturer.  Have your engine specs and current gear reduction in hand.

     

    Rich

     

  • #222471

    Tor
    Participant

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    Ah, so that was you, Rich. Well done!

     

    I also seem to recall that a number of owners who have opted to bypass the RV20’s internal water-cooling system altogether reported long-term success. Also, I think some switched to heavier oil, which (they said) had the added benefit of quieting the beast down a little.

     

    I shipped my RV20 to the factory a few years ago for a rebuild when it started making scary noises. It has been running like a top since, including the flow-thru water cooling.

     

    Tor

    ——————

    Silverheels 424#17

    http://www.silverheels.us

    424@silverheels.us

    ——————

     

     

     

  • #222475

    calicojack
    Participant

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    Tell me I’m stupid but…….for the last 5 years I’ve simple put a large
    pair of channel locks on my shaft to keep it from free wheeling on long
    passages. I put the engine key securely on the channel locks so there’s never
    any starting the engine with the shaft locked. I still have the factory brake in
    place but like so many of you said; no parts availability. Cheeeep 
    Cheeeep!
    Jack on “MOJO” in Beaufort, NC    Hull #184

    Calico Jack

  • #222476

    Tor
    Participant

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    Hopefully not too stupid, Jack, since I’ve done the same thing whenever my Shaft-Lok was out of order. Hey, it works.

     

    ——————

    Silverheels 424#17

    http://www.silverheels.us

    424@silverheels.us

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  • #222477

    calicojack
    Participant

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    Thanks Tor. I couldn’t get my wife to hold the shaft from turning for more
    than an a couple of hours or with her hands hence the channel Lock Universal
    Channel Locks Shaft Brake !!
    Jack on “MOJO”
     

    Calico Jack

  • #222481

    typhoontye
    Participant

    I have a Shaft-Lok for sale at a bargain price! I installed it on Blue Moon, bought it new, and found the install simple and easy. I have pics for anyone interested. No cut in the floor required, but you do have to fiberglass a small block to the hull as a mount point for the torque strut. No big deal. Mine is installed on the jack shaft and has worked very well. It is about 18 months or 2 years old. Would have to check my maintenance log. I believe I purchased it for $700 and would let it go for half that, plus shipping. I have all the paperwork and instructions. The reason I removed it was because I broke down and bought a flex o fold prop, and the Shaft Lok is now superfluous. Any way, for those of you making your crew hold the shaft, this might be a good anniversary present. I leave my home here in Ft Walton for a 4 month cruise in a couple of days, so we would have to act fast, or wait 4 months. If interested, call me at 850 368 6247.

    David Tye
    Blue Moon
    #189

  • #222482

    calicojack
    Participant
    Hi David
    SOLD. How do I get you paid.
    Jack on MOJO
     

    Calico Jack

  • #222483

    calicojack
    Participant
    David
    Will you accept a USPO money order or a cashiers check from my bank? How
    much for frt? I can even do a wire transfer to your bank with your bank wire
    instructions. Pls ship to me at
    Jack Coulter
    256 Morrison Rd
    Oriental, NC 28571
    Big Thanks / jack
     
    PS I need your address.
     

    Calico Jack

  • #222484

    typhoontye
    Participant

    Sorry Jack, I can keep you as a backup, but sold already! Got a call about two minutes after my post.

     

    David

     

  • #222485

    calicojack
    Participant
    DAVID
    Considered it sold.
     

    Calico Jack

  • #222490

    because
    Participant
    As a past sailor and as much as I enjoy the banter and great solutions, I have been infected by
    dieselcsytinitis and will not by able to digest your exploits. I wish you all well and have only high regards for “your close friendships and the help that you
    freely provide to each other”. Thanks BECAUSE
    Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

    ——–
  • #222492

    Tor
    Participant

    Jack,

    FYI, PayPal is perfect for this kind of thing, nearly instant and free between individuals.

     

    Tor

     

     

     

  • #222495

    calicojack
    Participant

    Thanks Tor, I forgot all about my Paypal account! My body odometer just
    turned over 200,00 miles…if I don’t write it down it’s gone.
    Jack
     

    Calico Jack

  • #222496

    calicojack
    Participant

     
     

    Calico Jack

  • #222497

    calicojack
    Participant

    Tor
    Did you and I work a co brokerage deal together years ago? Maybe on a
    Channel Cutter? I owned the brokerage side of Deaton Yachts in Oriental for 21
    years. That business sure has changed, I’m happy to be retired and out of
    it.
    Best Regards/ Jack – Mojo #184
     

    Calico Jack

  • #222498

    Tor
    Participant

    We may well have co-brokered together, Jack. I remember working with Deaton Yachts on at least one occasion. My last company was Anchor Yachts in Rhode Island, the Northeast Valiant Yachts dealership at the time. I’m definitely glad to be cruising again instead of manning a desk 7 days a week, but sometimes I kind of miss the energy of it – and the commissions ;). The guy who took it over from me, Josh Hodgson, has made Anchor Yachts the #1 Outbound dealer now, plus several other pricey lines.

     

    Tor

    ——————

    Silverheels 424#17

    http://www.silverheels.us

    424@silverheels.us

    ——————

     

     

  • #222507

    Dennis Home
    Participant

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    I have a RV-20 that I replaced last year. It’s always been in fresh water. It has a slight leak in

    the rear seal. Runs quiet, water flow and lubrication are normal. I can’t guarantee it but

    it was working fine when I took it out to replace the fuel tank. I replaced the trans also but it was

    good and worn. I would be willing to sell the V-drive for $500 plus shipping.

     

  • #222509

    Seawater
    Participant

    For reference: 10 years and thousands of miles (to and from Caribbean and Maine 3x from new england, motoring and motorsailing) now since eliminating water cooling on my rv-20. No issues, never gets over 180 farenheit. I have a temp alert at 210, it is easy to install. The case is already drilled and tapped. I don’t baby it. I have motored at 8 knots for an hour (takes a clean bottom and near full power on the old W60). I usually motor at 6.5

    Walter
    Madness – Hull #1

  • #222510

    Revery
    Moderator

    Dennis,
    I’ll take it. Revery’s v-drive is working but is suspect.
    Where are you located? I see your homeport is Milwaukee, but not sure if you’re there or not. If you are, I could save you the trouble of shipping (and me the expense) by picking it up the next time in the north ‘burbs of Chicago.

    Thanks,
    Evan
    Revery

  • #222514

    Dennis Home
    Participant
    I’m just up the freeway (I-90) into Wisconsin in a little town called Milton. you can e-mail or text me your plans. dennishome@charter.net 608-359-2677.
    Regards
    Dennis

    Yours for a better world

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