Rodd,

On my last boat I cruised 30k n. miles with a pair of CQR’s on the bow. I had another, smaller CQR for a stern anchor, which I used when Med-mooring bow-to the quays throughout the Mediterranean during 2+ years there. In every kind of bottom ground and all kinds of weather, none of those anchors ever dragged once. What could you possibly switch to that would do better than that?

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I work at WEST, and have had two separate experienced crusier customers rav about the Rocna.

~~~ ~ (_~~ (_~ ~ ~ fair winds ~ ~ (_
Capt Bill Tice, aboard s/v CHARISMA

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Watch out! We’re getting close to religion again.

There always seems to be another variation on an existing anchor design. These both look like plow anchors, but they lack the pivot and added a roll-bar. The roll-bar eliminates the need for the pivot. The pivot is a moving part, so getting rid of it must be a good thing. I’ve heard of rare circumstances where the pivot pin has failed. They are basically plow anchors though. Can they be better than what you already have?

If you must burn a boat unit, the mason looks like it might have more surface so it might hold a little better in sandy bottoms. Otherwise, I would expect them both to perform much like a plow. IMHO, if the price is the same as the plow, either is probably a better design. I can’t confirm this suspicion since I don’t own one and have no plans to change my ground tackle.

I have a 44# bruce that I swear by. The thing I like about the bruce is that it locks on the bow roller automatically. The patent has run out, so they are affordable. I would expect both these new anchors to be pricey because they are certainly protected by a patent. If I lost my primary anchor, I’d run out and buy exactly the same thing. My only complaint is that it isn’t particularly good in weed, but none of these appear to have an advantage there. The only thing I’ve found to work in weed is a large fisherman.

—
Rich Carter

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Rodd,

In my opinion, how much chain you “need” depends on your cruising grounds. In general, more is better. For cruising long-distance, I like 200-250′ of chain + 100′ of rope on the primary anchor. On the secondary bow anchor, 50′ of chain plus at least 200′ of rope. (I think it’s OK to use the word “rope” when referring to anchor rodes.) On the stern anchor I use only 25′ of chain, the rest rope.

As for switching manually from gypsy to capstan, you might be able to upgrade your windlass to a gypsy that handles both chain and line. You can then connect the chain and rope with a long chain splice and the gypsy will handle the transition all by itself, without you having to hump the rode from one drum to the other.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have both CQR and Bruce on the bow. The boat came with 275 feet of 3/8 BBB chain. I have since replaced it with 300 feet of 5/16 HT. Lighter but stronger. I did that when I install the electric windlass. I saw the old thing coming fast.
alan

— On Wed, 9/24/08, Rodd Leeds <> wrote:

To add to the mix, I have a 35Kg (75lbs) Bruce as my main anchor with 200 feet of chain, a secondary anchor that's a 45lb CQR with 40 feet of chain and some kind of wierd, but wonderful rode (and no, there are only two ropes on a ship -the bolt rope on the sail and the bell rope). My stern anchor is a 25lb Fortress with 200 feet of chain.

I know for a fact that 6 424's can be held in 15+ knots of wind in a mud bottom with the Fortress. I'll never laugh at one again. If you get it to catch, you have a good anchoring. You have to be careful because it can skip along the bottom easier than regular anchors that depend on weight to catch.

For chain and line rodes, the rule of thumb is use at least the length of the boat's worth of chain.

Anchoring is mostly magic, so whatever works for you works for you.

Bob

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 6:23 PM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Silver Heels’ anchors are similar: 45 lb CQR w/150′ chain & 100′ of line, 66 lb Manta claw anchor w/50′ chain & 150′ line, plus lots more anchor line in ready reserve. At the stern a 22 lb Danforth, maybe 25′ chain & lots of line, but only 1/2″ this side of the Atlantic.

Yeah, you’re probably right. Thought I’d read that about anchor rope somewhere, but now can’t place it.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, for some reason my boat came with a 35 lb CQR, which doesn’t make
sense to me. As per others comments, it is at least 10 lbs too light. Is
anybody out there using this small of a CQR. I fiqured the PO must have sold
the main anchor and the 35 Lb one was a secondary or stern anchor.

I have been close to getting a Manson Supreme (a 60 Lb for long term
cruising with 275 ft of 5/16 HT chain). However, another “new” anchor has
just come out that looks pretty interesting, the RAYA and the Tempest ( the
Tempest will dismantle for storage).

http://ancoralatina.com/acolhimento/ingles/Home%20page.html

Not a lot of info on them yet, but someone from Toronto just received one,
so I will be interested in hearing how he likes it. ALso GMac in NZ will be
testing them out down under shortly.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/raya-anchor-18540.html

How are the original anchor rollers on the 424 for handling these newer
anchors. I have heard some people comment that the Ronca’s or Supreme’s are
too big to fit some boats, but I don’t know if that is a problem with our
boats.

Paul

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On 9/24/08 4:48 PM, Robert Fine wrote :

I know for a fact that 6 424’s can be held in 15+ knots of wind in a mud
bottom with the Fortress. I’ll never laugh at one again. If you get it to
catch, you have a good anchoring. You have to be careful because it can skip
along the bottom easier than regular anchors that depend on weight to catch.

Weird timing on this. There¹s a similar discussion on ssca right now.
http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=6581&highlight=

I will repeat what I said there, those two little bolts on a fortress scare
the hell out of me. NO WAY will you get me to hang my boat on a single 1/4
20 bolt. One good slide on rock or Coral and that anchor is coming apart.

And, anywhere you can get a fortress to set, you can get a Danforth to set,
and rest easy knowing you are laying on Welded steel instead of a 1/4 bolt,
a Nylock, and some Aluminum.

As to the OP, the correct amount of rope, would be 0 Unless you are using
it to attach a buoy 🙂

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It’s a CQR, so I’d say it’s about 200# to light. You need them to be able to hold the boat while on their side, like a mooring sitting on the bottom 🙂

On 9/24/08 7:19 PM, Paul Lefebvre wrote :

Well, for some reason my boat came with a 35 lb CQR, which doesn’t make
sense to me. As per others comments, it is at least 10 lbs too light. Is
anybody out there using this small of a CQR. I fiqured the PO must have sold
the main anchor and the 35 Lb one was a secondary or stern anchor.

I have been close to getting a Manson Supreme (a 60 Lb for long term
cruising with 275 ft of 5/16 HT chain). However, another “new” anchor has
just come out that looks pretty interesting, the RAYA and the Tempest ( the
Tempest will dismantle for storage).

http://ancoralatina.com/acolhimento/ingles/Home%20page.html

Not a lot of info on them yet, but someone from Toronto just received one,
so I will be interested in hearing how he likes it. ALso GMac in NZ will be
testing them out down under shortly.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/raya-anchor-18540.html

How are the original anchor rollers on the 424 for handling these newer
anchors. I have heard some people comment that the Ronca’s or Supreme’s are
too big to fit some boats, but I don’t know if that is a problem with our
boats.

Paul

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Aaron,

There are some other considerations regarding the “correct amount of rope,” or “line” as Bob corrected me
yesterday. In choppy conditions, the boat and anchors benefit by having some stretch in the rode. Chain alone
can’t provide that. It’ll cushion the bucking or pitching shock up to a point simply by its own weight having
to lift off the bottom, but when it does straighten out there is a violent shock to the system. In extreme
conditions something eventually has to break. Nylon line provides the necessary buffer, acting as a shock
absorber because of it’s stretchy nature. When you anchor with an all chain rode, you may benefit by attaching
a length of nylon line to the chain with a chain hook or a rolling hitch, feed out another 15′-30′ of chain,
depending on conditions, and then take up the tension on the line & secure it to the bow. The first 15′-30′ or
whatever of chain then hangs slightly limp from the bow.

Taking this a step further, you can install a strong, back-plated eye bolt in the stem just a foot or so above
the waterline and splice or shackle a length of anchor line to it. The bitter end attaches to the all-chain
rode as described and gets fed out when you anchor, again so that the line takes the strain and the first
section of chain is limp. This not only provides the rode stretch when needed, but lowers the angle of pull on
the anchor and so reduces the amount so scope necessary for a given depth of water.

OK, I’ve probably said too much. I’m off to the bilges to run new sanitation hoses. Fun!

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that – I have two snubbers – 25' of 5/8 nylon line with an eye on one end and a chain hook on the other – I use them singly or in pairs depending on the conditions.

If you have a windlass (and you do if you have chain or you have a crew of deck apes) you should NEVER depend on the windlass to hold the boat. In addition, the bow rollers are not designed for the stresses of the boat motion on the anchor chain. The cleats, however, are designed for just that.

Snubbers are easy to make and one of the cheapest things you'll ever purchase for the boat (excepting light bulbs). Don't leave home without them.

Bob

On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 5:12 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Aaron,

There are some other considerations regarding the “correct amount of rope,” or “line” as Bob corrected me
yesterday. In choppy conditions, the boat and anchors benefit by having some stretch in the rode. Chain alone
can't provide that. It'll cushion the bucking or pitching shock up to a point simply by its own weight having
to lift off the bottom, but when it does straighten out there is a violent shock to the system. In extreme
conditions something eventually has to break. Nylon line provides the necessary buffer, acting as a shock
absorber because of it's stretchy nature. When you anchor with an all chain rode, you may benefit by attaching
a length of nylon line to the chain with a chain hook or a rolling hitch, feed out another 15'-30' of chain,
depending on conditions, and then take up the tension on the line & secure it to the bow. The first 15'-30' or
whatever of chain then hangs slightly limp from the bow.

Taking this a step further, you can install a strong, back-plated eye bolt in the stem just a foot or so above
the waterline and splice or shackle a length of anchor line to it. The bitter end attaches to the all-chain
rode as described and gets fed out when you anchor, again so that the line takes the strain and the first
section of chain is limp. This not only provides the rode stretch when needed, but lowers the angle of pull on
the anchor and so reduces the amount so scope necessary for a given depth of water.

OK, I've probably said too much. I'm off to the bilges to run new sanitation hoses. Fun!

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---

Original Message

---

Aaron
At the risk of going off on another religious tangent, the Fortress is without peer when used as a storm anchor. I think it is not suitable for day to day anchoring. I keep an FX-85 for a storm anchor stowed below. Maybe this is overkill. I don’t know what the correct size for a storm anchor is, nor would I trust anyone to compute this. Most articles I’ve read use 60kts as a benchmark. I figured that I’d find the biggest anchor that can be stowed below and match the ground tackle to whatever that rating is. The FX-85 is the biggest anchor I could find. A comparable sized CQR, Bruce, or even danforth would be too large to fit in your lazarette and would be too heavy to lift. The fortress disassembles for storage. The individual pieces are light enough to be easily handled. The two fasteners you mention are not under load. They just snug down the crossbar and keep it from sliding. The FX-85 is rated at 21,000 lbs holding power in hard sand. This is about 4 times w
hat yo
u need to anchor a 424 in 60kts of wind. In theory, this would hold the boat in over 100kts.

Disadvantages of this kind of setup are that the anchor won’t set in weed and can have trouble resetting if the wind shifts directions (assuming that the thing would even pull out). You can increase the odds of the anchor resetting if you use a good length of heavy chain. It takes about 30 minutes to dig the fortress and the 200′ of 1″ rode and 40′ of 1/2″ chain out of the locker, set it up on the fordeck, and set the anchor. Once set, it can be very difficult to retrieve. Even running over it under power to pull it out is difficult. It won’t stow on the bow roller. Being made of aluminum with stainless fasteners, it would be subject to corrosion if left on deck.

Here’s an interesting link
http://www.rocna.com/press/press_0612_wm_ym_testing.pdf

—
Rich Carter

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