Alan,
Not sure what works best, but I would think the full length luff would involve much less banging of the pendant against the foil. My SJ is hank on for the inner solent stay. The SJ on the Sweden Yacht 38 on which I used to do off-shore races was of the full length luff tape variety. It worked very well on the 2 times we ever hoisted it.

Are you planning to drop your genoa on deck to raise the SJ? If so, my guess it will never be hoisted unless you have really good crew onboard. Might as well put the money elsewhere (IMHO).

John

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 12:18 PM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Question about luff tape on a storm jib.
Two conflicting opinions.
One sail maker suggests having luff tape that runs from the tack point on the furler all the way to the top (masthead).
The other sail maker says luff tape just the length of the sail with pendants attached to bring the furler mechinisim up to the top.
What configurations of attachments are others using.
thanks
alan

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Don't buy a sail from the first sailmaker. The luff tape is no where strong enough to deal with the stresses of a storm jib. Moreover, you could ask the second sailmaker to include the wire rope throughout the luff so that it can be raised independently of the main jib. That way you don't have to remove the main jib, just furl it.

There are other options as well.

Bob

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 10:18 AM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Question about luff tape on a storm jib.
Two conflicting opinions.
One sail maker suggests having luff tape that runs from the tack point on the furler all the way to the top (masthead).
The other sail maker says luff tape just the length of the sail with pendants attached to bring the furler mechinisim up to the top.
What configurations of attachments are others using.
thanks
alan

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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8

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I don’t care how many crew you have. I wouldn’t want to be pulling down and stowing a large gennoa in a blow. There are ways to add an inner forestay to be used just for a storm jib. We’ve exchanged quite a lot of mail about this in the past.

—
Rich Carter

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Alan,
I think you got three different answers all saying the same thing – neither approach is a good idea.

If I understood the two options you were presented, both intended to use the foil to secure the luff of the SJ. The difference was in the hoist. Both sails appear to be racing storm jibs – where the objective is to keep sailing and in the race direction. I've been on the foredeck (20 years and 70 pounds ago) dousing a #3 genoa and hoisting a racing SJ in 45 kts and 10' seas. It was an adrenalin rush, but I also had two very competent crew members on deck with me and a really good helmsman in the cockpit. I would not want to do the same on this boat with my general pickup crew from among friends. Fortunately at my advanced age and weight no one wants me on their foredeck in those conditions anymore.

Without an inner forestay on which to hank the SJ the only other option I know of is the ATN solutioni (aka Rolly Tasker) which uses a sleeve to wrap around the furled genoa. I had one onboard for years before I installed the Solent Stay, but never rigged it in anger. It's still a bitch to be in the bow pulpit trying to wrap that sleeve around the furled sail while the bow keeps plunging a few feet below the water surface. Better to be back near the mast when on deck in those conditions.

I don't think there's anything inheirently unsound in using the foil to secure the luff of an SJ. I think you'll find that the Volvo Around the World racers all use those sail configurations. Again the devil is in the details of of how you get it flying.

John

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 4:05 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Very good, John, I agree with all your points. I've never used the ATN thing, although there are those that swear by it (and no doubt at it).

Here's the problem – if you only have one halyard for the jib, you're already in trouble – you have to lower the main jib before you raise the storm one.

Here's the thing – I've been in a full gale with the jib, staysail, and mizzen (35kts) and the boat, although pressed, is easily handled. With a staysail and mizzen, I've been in 40kts, if only for a few minutes but there was NO DRAMA. Sailing on a close reach at 7.5 knots and less than 15 degrees heel.

If I were to recommend any rig, and you didn't have a solent stay, I'd strongly recommend an inner forestay, a la cutter. The sail helps in light wind (to the tune of a knot +) and as the wind pipes up, provides all the power you need.

The downside is that you need special deck fittings (pictures available), and you need running backstays for the main mast. You also need a block for the staysail halyard. Another downside is tacking and gybing – the inner stay is a pain in the butt to deal with. However, a solent stay is even worse in that you HAVE to furl the main jib and unfurl it on the other tack. Most people I know with solents never bother to use the jib because of that 'feature'. Your experience could be different.

If you can't guess, I'm totally happy with the staysail rig. You could add a furler to it, you could make it so the baby stay can be removed quickly or whatever. But the staysail is small enough and tough enough to be a true storm sail. If not, you could manage to change it as it's way back on deck and it's much, much smaller than even a 120% jib.

My two cents….

Bob

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:26 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Alan,
The the luff tape the full length of the foil is fairly common for this type of sail. As I said we had one on the boat I raced on. If that's the question then the sailmaker is not blowing smoke.

John

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:46 PM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:

I started rigging an inner forestay, but haven’t finished. My rigger advised me that the bulkhead at the aft end of the chain locker is not strong enough for a chainplate. I’ve attached a 2×12 oak beam across the top of that bulkead at the forward end of the v-berth. For those who have a cutter rig, I’d appreciate comments and even a picture of how your chainplate is attached.

My mast already came with a stay tang to attach an inner forestay. I assume that Pearson used the same mast for all rig variations It didn’t have tangs for the running backs however. I added those and purchased a pair of running backs. I have a forestay wire that needs to be cut to length. My plan is to normally stow it hanked onto a u-bolt on the toe-rail just forward of one of the forward lowers. When I need to fly a storm jib, I would unclip it from that position and swing it over to the deck mounted chainplate. A short extension wire would likely be needed. The storm jib would hank on. I personally wouldn’t want a storm jib that had a luff tape. I think a hanked on sail is easier and more reliable to set in a blow.

After getting this far, I read a running thread we had a few years back about this subject and changed my mind about the setup. Since I won’t be flying two headsails at the same time, there is no reason that the stay can’t hank on at the top of the mast, about a foot or two below the top of the mast. This eliminates the need for the running backs and lets me use the spinnaker halyard for the storm jib.

I haven’t done any more on this project because I have no plans to take the boat offshore in the near future. For coastal cruising, my storm sail is made by Yanmar.

—
Rich Carter
BlackSheep #47

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We installed a Solent stay. Used it with our high cut Yankee in a force 5-6 wind and beat all day making 6-7 knots. Much better than a half rolled Genoa. One caveat. We tried using the Yankee on the Solent stay in a light head wind, but the boat would hardly move. We took it down and made 3-4 knots upwind with the full Genoa. I surmise the furled Genoa dirties the air, which was not a problem in force 5, but is a problem in light wind. We also have a storm jib, but have never used it. Both, of course, are hanked onto the Solent stay.

Norris Larson, Easy Reach, #206

— On Wed, 10/8/08, Robert Fine <> wrote:

The high-cut Yankee luff goes the full length of the Solent stay which is secured 18 inches below mast head with a T-bolt fitting. Because it is high cut it does not cause much heel in force 5 or 6 and the full length luff gives as much lift as possible.

I tried sheeting the Yankee inboard of stays through the Genoa block, but the Yankee clew is back engough so the sheeting did not work well with the stays. It worked well sheeted outboard of the stays and I have no planes to try a different arrangement to get it inboard.

The strom jib luff is shorter than the stay length and has wire pendants peak and tack. I won’t be at the boat again until spring so I can’t tell you how long the luff is. Never having used the storm jib, I have no advice on sheeting it.

Norris Larson, Easy Reach, #206

Robert (and anyone else with input to share),

I realize I’m weeks late for this discussion. I’ve been away (at the Annapolis boat shows) and am just now catching up on the group emails. In fact, I found I haven’t been getting any of them at all since 10/08 due to a host server screw-up. Hopefully that is now corrected.)

I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on the following: I plan to install an inner forestay for the purpose of flying a small, hanked-on, heavily built staysail reef-able to a storm jib. My idea is to run the wire from a tang just above the spreaders to a deck fitting maybe 6″ forward of the coachhouse. This should obviate the need for running backstays, which I’d rather avoid, since the fixed aft lowers will take the strain. I’m hoping the genoa will have ample room to tack through the large slot, but if not I’ll just keep the inner forestay stowed off to the side when day-sailing. Of course, I’ll have to reinforce the foredeck at the attachment point and carry the load out to the hull. That’s likely to be the biggest part of the job, building in a deck beam & knees. Finally, I intend to rig the staysail to be self-tending, though free-footed, using an athwartships track across the coachhouse forward of the mast, with a single sheet led aft through a couple of deck-mounted fairlead blocks.

Ideas/comments/suggestions?

Thanks,

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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There is a beefed up section of the foredeck aft of the anchor locker and just foreword of the cabin top which is intended for this. If you feel around the hull liner in your v-berth you should be able to feel it. On my boat the PO put the windlass through this portion of the deck and was advised to do so by Pearson (I even have the letter). I assume you will still need to secure the bottom of the foredeck to the hull in some way to be sure you won’t rip off your deck. But that could also be done with a removable system.

Here are pics of my windlass and hawse pipe which should help you locate it:
foredeck: http://www.flickr.com/photos/deepplaya/2491450172/in/set-72157605044722560/
v-berth: http://www.flickr.com/photos/deepplaya/2490634367/in/set-72157605044722560/

If you see my previous item on calculating shroud loads and if you check out Brion Toss’ book you can also calculate the inner forestay loads, I haven’t gotten to that point yet. You might also talk to a rigger to help you make some decisions and then do the work yourself.

-p

<.. snip>

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Boy, oh boy, do I recommend this! The best place for the inner forestay is just above the bulkhead that forms the aft of the anchor locker. You can build the backing/stress plates for that bulkhead and do they work! I'll happily send pictures of mine (I think I did once, but will again happily).

Once you start using a staysail, you'll use it all the time – it adds 1 to 1.5 knots to boat speed especially in light air. The only difference between what you want to do and what I have is the connector to the stay – mine's not terribly flexible so it's a bit of a pain in the ass to remove.

There is more than enough room for the main jib to pass although you need some patience and skill to do it without a great deal of flapping – the key is to release the jib lines earlier than later.

The reef-able staysail is what I have in addition to a general one I use. As it turns out you don't need a track. I've attached a bridle between the forward posts of the mast pulpits and back to a line brake in the cockpit for the sheet. Works like a charm although the twist in the sail is fairly high. I also have running backs for the main – I've never needed to deal with them, but in really high seas I could see them stopping the mast from pumping.

I cannot recommend a staysail enough.

Oh, as I mentioned, the staysail and mizzen in 32-38 kts of wind allows Pelican to sail quite happily on a close reach at 7+kts with no drama. Paul Lefebvre will testify to that – and with old, blown out sails.

So there's my two cents.

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While reading Practical Sailor’s October issue about folding transom
dinghies, I was wondering what people were doing about dinghies stored
forward of the mast when flying a sail an inner forestay of either type. I
know Bob’s is a roll-up, so that is not an issue.

John, I see from your site that you have re-cut your staysail to fly inside
the shrouds. Have you figured out a way to sheet it with the dinghy in the
way.

Paul

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Paul,
No, I still sheet the staysail outside of the shrouds. Something to occupy my mind during the winter in the Exumas.
My 10' RIB fits between the mast and the front of the cabin trunk. It does not interfere with the staysail when sheeted outside the shrouds. With the dingy deflated I will have room for short lengths of genoa track on the edge of the cabin trunk. That is my plan, but I'm still working on it. If I had all the projects completed I'd have to find another lifestyle.

John

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Paul Lefebvre < ([email][/email])> wrote:

While reading Practical Sailor's October issue about folding transom dinghies, I was wondering what people were doing about dinghies stored forward of the mast when flying a sail an inner forestay of either type. I know Bob's is a roll-up, so that is not an issue.

John, I see from your site that you have re-cut your staysail to fly inside the shrouds. Have you figured out a way to sheet it with the dinghy in the way.

Paul

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