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I’ve replied to this twice, but the message seems to get blocked. I suspect that the spam filter has identified my reply as spam for some reason. I’ll try sending once again.
Tor
I don’t think you can use the aft lowers to support an inner forestay. These
shrouds are designed to keep the mast in column, not to handle high for-aft
loads. I think the angle will be too narrow. You can calculate the loads on
these stays if you have the time. I have a hydrolic backstay tensioner with a
pressure gauge. I regularly adjust the backstay to 3500lbs. In high winds,
your storm jib will likely have similar loads. Assume a modest inner-forestay
load of about 2000 lbs. This would translate to about 4000 lbs of load on each
lower. That’s a pretty high load. I don’t think the chainplates will take it.Rich Carter
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I had a similar feeling as Rich, but since I have never done the
calculations, I thought I would wait to see what others thought. It would be
great to be able to set up a cutter rig without running backstays.However, based on my experience on Bob’s boat this summer, I definitely
think adding backstays are worth the effort to have a cutter rig versus a
solent stay. Already having the staysail flying when a squall comes through
and just needing to roll up the genny and keep going at hull speed was
really nice. Tacking through the gap was no problem at all. I assume those
with a solent stay rarely use them because of the tacking issue.When I install an inner forestay, I will go the cutter route. If someone can
calculate that I am able to do it without running back-stays, so much the
better (Patrick, I assume you are using your new found knowledge to do this
right now!!)Paul
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Following the formula’s in the Rigger’s Apprentice and a safety factor of 2.75 I have the maxload on an inner forestay for a P424 at 9900 Lbs. This is the number you should use for sizing the wire. The angles matter a lot of course too. Probably a nice opportunity to pay rigger for an hour or two of consulting to help design the right solution.
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com
Patrick’s Sailing Blog | http://www.shipsrecord.com/blogs/patrick
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OK, I took one class and I read a book, so lots not overstate my skillz. 😉 What I’ve done thus far is plug in numbers to some formulas from the book and from the class (the mizzen shroud formulas are not in the book). This will let me determine the proper wire sizes to use when re-rigging. Thus far the wires lited in in the original parts list seem about right to undersized depending on the wire.
Brion Toss seemed pretty into the solent stay as a solution. The main benefit being not needing to provide additional backstays with that configuration.
An inner forestay would probably want running back stays depending on the placement and if the mast was unsupported in that section. I don’t have formulas to do those load calculations through.-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com
Patrick’s Sailing Blog | http://www.shipsrecord.com/blogs/patrick
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In either solution (inner forestay or solent) if you attached the wire high enough up the mast, you would not need runners.
I believe this was from a discussion on Toss’s own web site.
alan— On Thu, 10/23/08, Patrick Walters <> wrote:
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Please pardon my ignorance, but I was wondering if anyone has looked into the differences, if any, in the thickness of the hulls and cabins throughout the 424’s production run and the affect any differences would have on “after market” rigging?
Lee
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Lee
That’s a good question. I know that Pearson switched to cored hulls at some point during production. No two 424’s are the same, so I’m sure it would vary from boat to boat. Unless you repair damage or cut a hole in the hull or deck somewhere I don’t know how you could determine thickness and quality. I repaired the deck rot around my main cabin companionway hatch and found the deck to be cored with about 1/2″ of balsa sandwiched between two 1/8″ layers of glass. I would expect all the decks to be the same. I’d be hesitant to attach high-load rigging to the deck unless it were reinforced. I think you’d crush the balsa core.—
Rich Carter
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Couple of ideas….
1) Look for holes already cut in the deck to check for core. The dorade vents (not on boxes) on the aft edge of my cockpit are just clean cuts through the deck, not plugged with epoxy. You can see the core there. You probably have other such poorly installed items as well. 🙁2) I’m sure all of you know this but as a newbie myself I’ll say some obvious things for any other lurker newbies. Anytime you cut (or drill) through the deck you put an epoxy plug back in, then re-cut through with a slightly smaller hole so you’ve sealed the core. This is especially true for when you are adding any load bearing fittings and you should make your plug bigger than the fitting and the backing plate so you don’t overlap (and thus risk crushing) any core in the deck.
3) If you are adding load bearing rigging you can then reinforce that drawing the load down through the deck into some below deck fitting. John made a bracket to tie into a bulkhead for his solent stay on Sarah: http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Solent%20Bracket%204.JPG, same thing on Whoosh: https://www.pearson424.org/exterior/rigging/images/FinishedInside_jpg.jpg I’ve also seen other inner stays where there is an eye bolt in the v-berth and that is tied down to the hull in some fashion. I’m sure it has a special name I don’t know yet. I couldn’t quickly find a pick online. We talked about this at the Brion Toss class as well, you can then remove this inner support when not sailing so you can use the v-berth for sleeping.
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com
Patrick’s Sailing Blog | http://www.shipsrecord.com/blogs/patrick
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Thank you all for your smart feedback on this subject. I believe I’m thinking in terms of a smaller staysail
than some of you carry. Nevertheless, I’ve concluded it’ll behoove me to consult a professional rigger about
how best to calculate and deal with the shroud & mast loads inflicted by an inner forestay in use. I’d still
like to avoid running backs if I safely can. Whether to carry the inner forestay’s load downward belowdecks to
the hull, or just strengthen the deck and hull/deck joint enough to take it directly is something I need to
consider some more.Glad I asked.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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