Thanks Patrick, this is good stuff.

Bob

—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8

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We bought a self tacking jib from National Sail Supply a few months back. They advertise in Cruising World, etc..They are a one man shop in Florida dealing in Rolly Tasker sails(Thailand) and delivered in about three weeks. Very nice sail at a very good price. Of course, they don’t come out and measure, but stock dimensions are not always accurate, and NSS talked me through the measuring process.
Everyone uses the same computer design and cutters, probably the same Asian sail factories. I’ve been wearing made in China clothes for years; can’t see paying a big name loft just to send the e-mail to China.

Quent

Hi Pat,

I believe Hong Kong sailmakers have been making excellent sails for decades. I got quotes from two Hong Kong sailmakers recently (both attached). Prices are a fraction of your numbers. Hard to know what you’re going to get from any overseas loft – or from many US lofts, for that matter – but I’ll bet they’d provide US customer references if asked. I’m not at the point of ordering yet. Will research it more when the time comes. Meanwhile, if anyone does buy (or has bought) from a Hong Kong outfit I’d appreciate hearing about the results.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Holy smokes, that’s a good price. If you purchase the sails, would you please send out some close up photos of the sail construction. E.g., photos of the mainsail head, slides, and battens and photos of the sails when set in a moderate breeze? Also, the 424 site has a place to link favorite vendors. If it works out, would you please link there?

Rich

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Yes, holy smokes. As I said, I’m not buying now. My boat came with what seem to be serviceable sails, enough (I hope) to get me down islands and keep me moving for a while. I was mainly pricing for a new genoa, which I may buy before I head to the West Indies. A complete new suit of sails is probably inevitable at some point, but I’ll hold off as long as I can.

Chances are someone else among us will be ordering sails before I will. Like you, I’d like to hear how it goes if they order from Hong Kong.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All very good points, Pat. The problem is you can’t check any of those things until you’re looking at a sail they made, so it’s really only applicable after the fact. Quantum Sails is a known entity with a terrific reputation. You pay top dollar for that and it may well be worth it. Still, you can probably get equal and even on occasion superior quality elsewhere, and for less money, but many other sailmakers fall under the heading of “a pig in a poke.” (Where’d that weird phrase come from, anyway?) That’s why I suggested asking overseas sailmakers for a list of US-customer references.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You knew this was going to happen:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-pig-in-a-poke.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pig2.htm

And now you know where it came from, what it means, where 'pocket' comes from and by inference, the Europeans were not above eating the odd cat.

Bob

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Here’s where it comes from

A farmer buys several pigs, hoping to breed them for ham, bacon. After several weeks, he notices that none of the pigs are getting pregnant, and calls a vet for help. The vet tells the farmer that he should try artificial insemination. The farmer doesn’t have the slightest idea what this means but, not wanting to display his ignorance, only asks the vet how he will know when the pigs are pregnant.
The vet tells him that they will stop standing around and will, instead. lay down and wallow in the mud when they are pregnant.

The farmer hangs up and gives it some thought. He comes to the conclusion that artificial insemination means he has to impregnate the pigs. So, he loads the pigs into his truck. drives them out into the woods. has sex with them all, brings them back and goes to bed.

Next morning, he wakes and looks out at the pigs. Seeing that they are all still standing around. he concludes that the first try didn’t take, and loads them in the truck again. He drives them out to the woods, banged each pig twice for good measure, brings them back and goes to bed.

Next morning, he wakes to find the pigs still just standing around. One more try, he tells himself. and proceeds to load them up and drive them out to the woods. He spends all day shagging the pigs and, upon returning home. falls listlessly into bed.

The next morning, he cannot even raise himself from the bed to look at the pigs. He asks his wife to look out and tell him if the pigs are laying in the mud. “No.” she says. “they’re all in the truck and one of them is honking the horn.”

Rich

Yep, I knew.

😐
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Patrick for what its worth (IMHO) anyone thinking of using 6 or 7 ounce cloth for our mizzens need their head candled. The mizzen should be made of the same weight as our mains if you ever think you might be using as a storm sail,ie jib and jigger. David

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 4:19 AM, Patrick Walters wrote:

Here are three quotes I’ve received. The one from Quantum was back in October gas was like $5 a gallon then. The other two were after talking to the representatives at the boat shows. I spent about 20 minutes talking to the Quantum guy in the loft when we did my quote. I probably spent about 10 minutes talking to the guys form Ullman sails. They asked me what kind of boat I had, I said I was in the market for a full set of sails for my P424 ketch including staysails, storm jib, asymmetrical spinnaker and that I planned to go blue water cruising. So realize we didn’t go over that many specifics and the quote is basically based on their assumptions. I didn’t talk to RushNeil Pryde at all, the guys wife took down my name, boat and she said he’d send me quote.

I really like the detail in the Quantum and Rush Neil Prude quotes.
I was underwhelmed by the detail and lack of specifics from Ullman. I’m sure those sails when brought inline with the other would be about the same.
Measurement wise they seem to all be operating from the same database as all their numbers were roughly the same.

The two companies I spoke with I specifically asked why I should go with them and how they compare to their competitors. They all mentioned their superior quality ad workmanship. Ullman mentions their Custom Axis Laminate which was “longer lasting” than Dacron, but at the same price. They did not specifically mention that they use this in their quote, but I was lead to believe they would. I think they were less speaking about how they compare to each other and more in how they compare to the discount sail makers. I tend to look for odd things, like why does the ATN Sleeve cost $635 at Quantum but $425 at RushNeil Pryde? All of the Quantum sails include a sail bag in the price.

Quantum Sails are made in S. Africa
Ullman in China or San Diego (most likely china unless they off people there)
I’m not sure about RushNeil Pride, I assume China.

Anyway, I’m not ready to make this decision yet, my sails will get me through this year, but I thought I’d share the info with you.

-p

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challange high mod. sail cloth comes in both high aspect weave style and low aspect weave style.
You should get more details on the cloth the sail makers are planing on using. I would also ask about the marblehead cloth if they are thinking about using the low aspect cloth. David

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Patrick Walters wrote:

I was reading about the different sailcloths in the quotes here are the links I found for each:

Hong Kong Sails quotes a variety of fabric weights in ounces, but no brands
Ullman doesn’t call out the fabric in the quote, but the guy mentioned their cloth: http://www.ullmansailssandiego.com/sailing-news-san-diego-southern-california.php
Far East Sails quotes Contender Supercruise cloth: http://www.contendersailcloth.com/wovens.asp (click super cruise on the left hand side) Quantum quotes Challenge High Modulous Weave, not sure which: http://www.challengesailcloth.com/high_modulus/high_mod.htm
Rush Neil Pryde quotes Challenge Performance Cruise in the mizzen http://www.challengesailcloth.com/cruise/perf_cruise.htm and Contender Supercruise in the main http://www.contendersailcloth.com/wovens.asp (click super cruise on the left hand side)

-p

<.. snip>

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