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Anyone have the caprail professionally replaced? I have an estimate of $8300. ($2900 teak and $5400 labor). Seems wacky high.
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Haven’t had an estimate myself, but I would have expected something in the
$15K range. There are a lot of scarf joints in the existing cap rail.
This sort of thing is probably a lot cheaper in Maine or other places with
a lot of retired/out-of-work boat builders.
If and when I do it there will be no teak. Might go with Trex or something
similar, but more likely just fill all the screw holes, sand the fiberglass
smooth and paint it (maybe with a little non-skid thrown in. Probably just
me.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Mizzenmonkey via maillist <
> wrote:Anyone have the caprail professionally replaced? I have an estimate of
$8300. ($2900 teak and $5400 labor). Seems wacky high.
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That depends on who’s giving the estimate I guess. A real high rated yard
will definitely give you a high end finished job but so will a smaller more
conscientious yard that doesn’t need the overhead pricing. The truth is,
it’s not that difficult of a job to a skilled boat worker. Where are you,
or where are you willing to go? Will you go down island, the Virgins or
beyond? We’ll get the teak before you leave and I’ll do it for $6,300. I
have all the tools and experience. It’s actually a straight forward,
simple, labor intensive job, just the kind of work I’ll be seeking when I
get south.Ken
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Mizzenmonkey via maillist <
> wrote:Anyone have the caprail professionally replaced? I have an estimate of
$8300. ($2900 teak and $5400 labor). Seems wacky high.
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Not Trex or any other decking product. These are “foam” products and
have non-uniform density so when you cut curves in them they will look
like sponges. Plasteak and similar products are extruded plastics and
have consistent density through out so you can machine them. My
toerails/caprails and decktop handles are all made of these extruded
products and I love them. Never varnish again… And yes, I wrote an
article on this…
http://www.dublerfamily.com/Regina_oceani/Articles/PlasticsBWS0213.pdfPete
On 10/15/2014 5:23 PM, John Stevenson via maillist wrote:
Haven’t had an estimate myself, but I would have expected something in the
$15K range. There are a lot of scarf joints in the existing cap rail.
This sort of thing is probably a lot cheaper in Maine or other places with
a lot of retired/out-of-work boat builders.
If and when I do it there will be no teak. Might go with Trex or something
similar, but more likely just fill all the screw holes, sand the fiberglass
smooth and paint it (maybe with a little non-skid thrown in. Probably just
me.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Mizzenmonkey via maillist <
> wrote:Anyone have the caprail professionally replaced? I have an estimate of
$8300. ($2900 teak and $5400 labor). Seems wacky high.
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I plan to replace mine someday with ipe. It’s harder than teak, weathers
really well, but it’s a bitch to work with. The problem with any plastic
product is expansion and contraction. Ipe is less expensive than plasteak,
and more dimensionally stable, while retaining the look of wood.Downsides are it’s really hard to work and for the first year or so, it
runs red. But after that, it’s bullet proof.The job should be done when you expect you’ll want to rebed your genoa
tracks. That’s the hardest part of replacing the caprail.Removal should, with two people, take a day or so per side. Figure two
days per side to replace, or six solid days of work ignoring the finishing.Someone on the site replaced theirs with stainless steel. There is also
fairing and painting which can look good if done well.Bob
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Pete Dubler via maillist <
> wrote:Not Trex or any other decking product. These are “foam” products and have
non-uniform density so when you cut curves in them they will look like
sponges. Plasteak and similar products are extruded plastics and have
consistent density through out so you can machine them. My
toerails/caprails and decktop handles are all made of these extruded
products and I love them. Never varnish again… And yes, I wrote an
article on this… http://www.dublerfamily.com/Regina_oceani/Articles/
PlasticsBWS0213.pdfPete
On 10/15/2014 5:23 PM, John Stevenson via maillist wrote:
Haven’t had an estimate myself, but I would have expected something in the
$15K range. There are a lot of scarf joints in the existing cap rail.
This sort of thing is probably a lot cheaper in Maine or other places with
a lot of retired/out-of-work boat builders.
If and when I do it there will be no teak. Might go with Trex or
something
similar, but more likely just fill all the screw holes, sand the
fiberglass
smooth and paint it (maybe with a little non-skid thrown in. Probably
just
me.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Mizzenmonkey via maillist <
> wrote:Anyone have the caprail professionally replaced? I have an estimate of
$8300. ($2900 teak and $5400 labor). Seems wacky high.
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Re: Caprail
Author:
The PO replaced the cap rail on my boat with 2″ thick Thai teak and did a beautiful job. Â I was told that he shared this load of top quality teak with David Crosby, who was visiting HI and working on his 74′ schooner “Maya”. Â That’s probably as close as I’ll ever get to CSN (&Y).
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu
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Oh My, 2″ must look awesome!!!!
Ken
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 11:20 PM, dan.kalinowski— via maillist <
> wrote:Re: Caprail
Author:
The PO replaced the cap rail on my boat with 2″ thick Thai teak and did a
beautiful job. I was told that he shared this load of top quality teak
with David Crosby, who was visiting HI and working on his 74′ schooner
“Maya”. That’s probably as close as I’ll ever get to CSN (&Y).Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu
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I would think that replacing the cap rail would be very difficult. You’d have to get into all the lockers to remove various fasteners that hold things like genoa track in place. I can see it taking a full week or more for labor. To be safe, I’d estimate two weeks for unexpected problems. II would have expected the quote for materials to be higher however.
If you go to the extreme of replacing the cap rail, consider adding fasteners to the deck joint. It’s held together with 5200. The life span of 5200 is something like 25..50 years. I tried to look it up but can’t seem to find it. I don’t know what happens to the stuff when it gets old. My guess is that it gets brittle and loses its adhesion. Bolting the joint together would probably prolong it’s life. If I were replacing my cap, I’d run 3/8″ fasteners down the seam every 6″. The genoa track does this for about half the length. If you throughbolt the joint, the fastener heads will likely stick up requiring a thicker cap. This might be hard to bend. You could run the genoa track all the way down the length of the hull to avoid this problem.
Rich
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That does sound like a fine caprail, Dan. (And tell David I said
hey. He won’t have any idea who you’re talking about, but it
might be fun anyway)Scruffy cruiser that I am, Silverheels’ original caprail remains
natural grey, cleaned and oiled once or twice a year to keep the
wood healthy. it then looks like gold for about a week before
reverting to its natural state. The “weathered teak” look is
accented by quite a few bare screw heads where the too-shallow
screw bungs fell out long before I had her. Because Mr. Pearson
didn’t set all of the fasteners deep enough, my replacement bungs
did the same thing. Sometimes I consider fairing and painting the
cap and grab rails, but so far it has only been a fleeting
thought. I do admire you spiffy guys, though. Maybe in my next
incarnation…Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Re: Caprail
Author:
I’m slowly figuring out how to attach pix. Â Here is a shot of my new anchoring setup with a good view of the caprail that was installed by the PO.
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, Ohau
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Re: Caprail
Author:
Here’s another shot of the caprail job with my new anchoring system. Â I followed Tor’s approach and glassed in the anchor locker door, applying matching non-skid over the glasswork. Â Even installed a flush washdown hose unit.
Â
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu
Â
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Dan, I see you posted the pics (nice!) on the website, but they didn’t arrive in the email (below). Has it always been that way, that if someone posts a photo on the site it doesn’t carry over to the email version of the message? Do pics have to be inserted into an email to travel in the emails? If so, I’ve probably missed seeing a LOT of photos during the past 7 years.
This is probably a question for Ewan.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Dan, what a pretty foredeck you have!!!
For Ewan …
I could not see the pictures in my email/ mailing list but I could go to either the new website or the old website and find the links to the pictures Dan posted.
On the old site at the bottom of the posts it gives you a link to respond to the thread, but on the new site, I can’t see how to respond.May The Force Be With You Ewan,
Ken
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Ken
I had to replace a short section of my rail cap several years back when it was damaged. The piece I replaced was just forward of the track. I cut out about 6′ of the damaged section and used it as a template to cut a replacement piece. I think it took me about an hour to finish the job. This isn’t at all the same as replacing the whole thing.I had always wondered how the original was put in there. I assume that they started with straight boards and bent them to fit the curve of the hull. The original boards were about 3/4″ thick so bending them just a bit to follow the curve sounds doable. If the boards were thicker however I don’t think you could bend them. Any thoughts?
Rich
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Tried posting this earlier but the nasty word filter must have kicked in. The offenders have been modified.
To all,
As many would guess tracks are rarely easy and without difficulty to remove but the experience shows when you don’t waste time doing it. If the bolts give trouble, then just start drilling the heads off. As a boat carpenter myself, the caprail job is pretty straight forward. Yes some difficulties/labor but nothing like building and installing a brand new bulwark with drifts and caprail on a wood boat. The little teak piece on the outside will have a changing bevel to fit up under the cap but nothing a boat carpenter can’t handle.
1)Take the old off and save some pattern shapes.
2)Clean, repair and ready the surface (deck to hull improvements at this time).
3)Decide on fastenings.
4)Mill lumber and cut with patterns (no bending on the cap, it would be cut out of milled stock).
5)Fit and scarf, all dry fitted and then maybe I’d fair the inside edge before installing permanently.
6)Cut, fit and bend in place the outer edge cap.
7)Fair and shape it all to finish.Something like that … one step at a time. I’d personally never do a job like this on quote, there are always surprises and I find it best to work with the customer as to how far to “perfect” he is willing to spend. My rate is half of the going yard rate and never has a customer been disappointed in my work. Just saying, in case any of you guys want work done and we’re in close proximity. References, not a problem and if expenses are paid, depending on where I am, I’d travel.
I’m putting this out here because I’ve got the skills and I’m not quite completely retired. I am going to have to find work over the next few years. I prefer jobs like this working “with” a boat owner who wants to save paying those stupid money rates at the yards($50 walks back to the shop/$50 poops and pee’s) and can be a helper to me saving him or her money.
Ken
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Tor,
My guess about your exposed screws, I have many myself…..it’s from all the years of sanding and refinishing the teak. They were no doubt all set at a reasonable depth when installed. Most of mine are where it’s easiest for a guy to hold a power sander. The edges are the easiest to abuse. I don’t plan on replacing my caprail but I will do a major refastening by pulling all those fasteners and drilling a tad deeper so they “will” accept a new bung. I have a great tool, Roto-Broach that makes that job very easy. I too will go scruffy for as long as I own the boat. Maybe when ready to sell put the shiny to her.Ken
Scruffy cruiser that I am, Silverheels’ original caprail remains
natural grey, cleaned and oiled once or twice a year to keep the
wood healthy. it then looks like gold for about a week before
reverting to its natural state. The “weathered teak” look is
accented by quite a few bare screw heads where the too-shallow
screw bungs fell out long before I had her. Because Mr. Pearson
didn’t set all of the fasteners deep enough, my replacement bungs
did the same thing. Sometimes I consider fairing and painting the
cap and grab rails, but so far it has only been a fleeting
thought. I do admire you spiffy guys, though. Maybe in my next
incarnation…Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Roger that, Ken. It hard to imagine one of the (2) PO’s could
have sanded that caprail down that far, especially considering
the guy before me apparently put on that horrid orange stuff
(what’s it called?) and just left it forever, so that it
resembled The Mummy’s leprosy when I got the boat. Anyway, on the
principle of “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it,” I’m not going to
refasten Silverheels’ caprail. Someday when I’m sprucing up the
boat to sell her I might do something about those shallow screws,
like pull, re-drill, re-install and plug. That is, if I haven’t
succumbed to the urge to just paint everything.No wonder I haven’t been invited to join any yacht clubs.
🙂
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Tor,
Paint will make it what it ain’t!
I got orange streaked with black and green right now (waiting for the sun
to help do the job). I stand proud looking at it (but gently barfing),
knowing that I “can” make it better when I get a mind to, or have the
perfect location for a soothing jump over the side at any time while doing
the job. Soon come.Ken
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Roger that, Ken. It hard to imagine one of the (2) PO’s could
have sanded that caprail down that far, especially considering
the guy before me apparently put on that horrid orange stuff
(what’s it called?) and just left it forever, so that it
resembled The Mummy’s leprosy when I got the boat. Anyway, on the
principle of “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it,” I’m not going to
refasten Silverheels’ caprail. Someday when I’m sprucing up the
boat to sell her I might do something about those shallow screws,
like pull, re-drill, re-install and plug. That is, if I haven’t
succumbed to the urge to just paint everything.No wonder I haven’t been invited to join any yacht clubs.
🙂
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Re: Caprail
Author:
I started my caprail refinishing  with a thorough pressure washing of the wood.  I then applied a coat of Cetol Natural Teak and finished it off with Cetol gloss.  No sanding was done.  The wood looked great and it has held up in the Hawaiian  sun for almost 3 years.  It’s just now starting to peel in places. Â
When yachties hear the word Cetol, they think of the orange crap. Â This stuff looked good, never turned orange, and held up for 3 years. Â I can’t complain. Â I think I’ll rough sand the peeling places and give her another coat of gloss. Â Love the look of varnish, but will never invest the time. Â Easy peesy.
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu
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Wow Dan, pressure washing teak? I’ve seen it done before and first hand saw
the damage. Glad your happy with your results, because that’s what matters,
but that is just about as far away as you can get to the proper care of
teak. The only other would be scrubbing bare teak with a stiff brush with
the grain. I’m sorry if that is blunt, but it’s truth, from a
professional/yachty/boat carpenters standpoint.
Not So Good At Sugar Coating,
KenOn Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 6:00 PM, dan.kalinowski— via maillist <
> wrote:Re: Caprail
Author:
I started my caprail refinishing with a thorough pressure washing of the
wood. I then applied a coat of Cetol Natural Teak and finished it off with
Cetol gloss. No sanding was done. The wood looked great and it has held
up in the Hawaiian sun for almost 3 years. It’s just now starting to peel
in places.When yachties hear the word Cetol, they think of the orange crap. This
stuff looked good, never turned orange, and held up for 3 years. I can’t
complain. I think I’ll rough sand the peeling places and give her another
coat of gloss. Love the look of varnish, but will never invest the time.
Easy peesy.Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu
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Re: Caprail
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Aloha Ken: Â The trick is how you use a pressure washer. Â I had no damage to the wood. Â Talk about a pressure washer, Ana is approaching O’ahu and Kaua’i with Cat 1 strength this weekend! Â Time to batten down!
Â
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu
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Oxalic acid and a garden hose works equally well without the risk.
On 10/16/2014 10:24 PM, dan.kalinowski— via maillist wrote:
Re: Caprail
Author:
Aloha Ken: The trick is how you use a pressure washer. I had no damage to the wood. Talk about a pressure washer, Ana is approaching O’ahu and Kaua’i with Cat 1 strength this weekend! Time to batten down!
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu
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Pete,
You use oxalic acid (Ospho, ChemPrime, etc.) to clean teak? How’s
it work? I’ve been using it since forever to prep metal for
priming/painting and to make rust stains vanish on deck and even
in clothing. Great stuff! Never thought of putting it on the
teak.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I’ve used a power-washer on my brightwork but I’m careful to keep the nozzle from getting too close. I don’t want to blow out the softer grain wood. It does a good job of cleaning the surface. I’ve used Cetol for many years and hate the stuff. As I’ve said before, it builds up and forms a dark finish that eventually peals. Once this happens it must be removed. A heat-gun and scraper do a pretty good job. I use Snappy Teak New, a pretty strong 2-part cleaner to clean and brighten the wood if I go to the extreme of stripping it. This cleaner removes whatever is left by my scraping and restores the wood to that just sanded look. Still, a light sanding is needed to get the surface prepared for a new coat. After sanding, I wipe down with denatured alcohol to remove the sawdust. Even though I’m pretty careful to avoid sanding too much, after almost 40 years of maintenance, the bungs along the edge of the cap rail are disappearing. The fix is to remove them, redrill and set new bungs. It’s a bit of work.
I tried Semco “natural” on the cockpit coming last spring and I’m very pleased with the results. It leaves the wood looking like it’s just been sanded and left to weather but the wood sheds water and doesn’t gray. There is no build-up. It’s watery however and tends to run. I had to apply an additional coat part way through the summer and it now needs another coat. I don’t mind applying a new coat if I don’t have to strip the stuff. I don’t see how it could be used on vertical surfaces. If the rail is well taped to catch the runs, it might be applied to the cap rail. If I have time this spring, I’ll strip the cap rail and try it there. I doubt the grab rails could be finished with the stuff but I could use Cetol there.
Rich
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The products one can purchase for cleaning teak or for cleaning decks is
just oxalic acid. I am not sure what the difference in concentration
is between Ospho and deck cleaner but a little googling might reveal that.On 10/17/2014 9:45 AM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
Quote:Pete,You use oxalic acid (Ospho, ChemPrime, etc.) to clean teak? How’s
it work? I’ve been using it since forever to prep metal for
priming/painting and to make rust stains vanish on deck and even
in clothing. Great stuff! Never thought of putting it on the
teak.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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and… you wet the wood, spray (garden sprayer) or brush on the oxalic
acid solution, scub lightly in the direction of the grain with a soft
brush, and then rinse off before it drys.On 10/17/2014 9:45 AM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
Quote:Pete,You use oxalic acid (Ospho, ChemPrime, etc.) to clean teak? How’s
it work? I’ve been using it since forever to prep metal for
priming/painting and to make rust stains vanish on deck and even
in clothing. Great stuff! Never thought of putting it on the
teak.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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… I rinse my plastic once and a while with water… in my new world,
teak belongs below decks.Pete
On 10/17/2014 9:47 AM, re.carter— via maillist wrote:
Quote:I’ve used a power-washer on my brightwork but I’m careful to keep the nozzle from getting too close. I don’t want to blow out the softer grain wood. It does a good job of cleaning the surface. I’ve used Cetol for many years and hate the stuff. As I’ve said before, it builds up and forms a dark finish that eventually peals. Once this happens it must be removed. A heat-gun and scraper do a pretty good job. I use Snappy Teak New, a pretty strong 2-part cleaner to clean and brighten the wood if I go to the extreme of stripping it. This cleaner removes whatever is left by my scraping and restores the wood to that just sanded look. Still, a light sanding is needed to get the surface prepared for a new coat. After sanding, I wipe down with denatured alcohol to remove the sawdust. Even though I’m pretty careful to avoid sanding too much, after almost 40 years of maintenance, the bungs along the edge of the cap rail are disappearing. The fix is to remove them, redrill and set new bungs. It’s a bit of work.I tried Semco “natural” on the cockpit coming last spring and I’m very pleased with the results. It leaves the wood looking like it’s just been sanded and left to weather but the wood sheds water and doesn’t gray. There is no build-up. It’s watery however and tends to run. I had to apply an additional coat part way through the summer and it now needs another coat. I don’t mind applying a new coat if I don’t have to strip the stuff. I don’t see how it could be used on vertical surfaces. If the rail is well taped to catch the runs, it might be applied to the cap rail. If I have time this spring, I’ll strip the cap rail and try it there. I doubt the grab rails could be finished with the stuff but I could use Cetol there.
Rich
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I would not be afraid to use a pressure washer on bright work as long as there is a good hard finish, but on bare teak never. The deeper the pith (soft grain) gets damaged the more work finishing for a proper yachtie shine. It either has to get sanded out or filled layer by layer with whatever finish you choose. But of course, you have to be aware of what a real yachtie finish is and looks like along with how much work to produce. Bare teak?, be gentle and always use soft brushes. The rain alone after time will do enough damage to the pith, don’t help it.
Ken
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Never mind, Pete. I had my stupid hat on this morning. Ospho and
Chemprime are brand names for phosphoric acid, not oxalic acid.Duh,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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