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I’ve got a battery problem.
During the last 5-day trip, the batteries worked very well, but one was hotter than normal. On day 4 it started blowing steam and stinking up the whole boat. I switched the battery selector to 2 so the alternator would stop charging that battery. Back at the dock, I disconnected the hot lead going from the battery charger to the failed steaming battery, but the battery charger (the one that run on AC power) would not start unless I put that lead back in. I then disconnected the pos and neg cables from the steaming battery (and bolted them together so they are connected), but still the charger won’t start charging.
I put a spare starting battery in that position and now, the charger starts and charges, but, even though the amp meter shows full and the charger drops to float charge, when I turn on any device (water presure pump, cockpit light, spreader light, blower, etc…) the meter for battery 2 bounced down to zero and sometimes inches up to 4 or 7 volts until I turn off that device.
I have two questions
1. Why do I need a battery in position 1 for the charger to kick in?
2. What is causing the remaining battery to show full, but drop to very low when I turn on a device?
3. If anyone knows why battery 1 got hot and blew steam, I’d like to know that.Here’s what I have
Statpower 40+ battery charger, set for battery type: flooded. Four wires connected to the battery charger. Three red, going to the pos terminal of the three batteries. One black, boing to the neg terminal of the engine start battery. The neg terminals of all three batteries are connected together
Three batteries: one engine start battery, one 4D flooded battery and one 4D sealed battery (AGM or gel??).
The battery selector switch has 2, All, 1
The flooded battery is Battery 2 on the switch and the sealed battery is Battery 1.
The battery that got hot and blew steam is the sealed Battery 1.The flooded Battery 2 got down to 25 percent before I gave up the charger trouble-shoting and started the engine to charge. This battery stayed below 50% for about a week.
The engine will charge whichever battery is selected on the battery selector (1, 2 or All).
The starter battery is isolated and dedicated to engine.From the All terminal on the Battery Selector switch, there are red cables going to an unknown device. Anyone know what this is (see linked images)?
http://bodylens.com/battery/mysterybox1.jpg
http://bodylens.com/battery/mysterybox2.jpg -
Hi,
The picture 2 looks like a charge combiner or isolator – it senses one
battery (probably #1 or the start battery) and when it gets to a full
charge, redirects the charge to another battery, or it prevents discharge
of one battery from discharging the start battery. The other probably does
the opposite.What you need to do is give us a drawing of all the battery wires including
the charge wires from the charger and alternator. We can’t even begin to
guess, really.Second, you need to determine whether you really do have different battery
types – you can’t mix them, although AGMs will survive in a flooded cell
environment.I don’t know how old your batteries are, but the smoking one may have a
shorted cell. If it got hot enough to boil, it’s probably shot.The charger may use battery 1 to sense voltage so when it’s disconnected it
won’t work. Also, you can’t just jump the positive cable to the negative
cable. That produces a dead short to the alternator and charger. If the
batteries are in series, for some reason, you will reduce the bank’s
voltage by that battery amount which also will drive the charger nuts.So we need a wiring diagram.
Mystery box 1 is a windlass reversing solenoid, which I assume is connected
to the windlass. It’s a Bobina 503 T. Mystery box 2 is the charge
combiner.Bob
On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 9:15 PM, cbboat wrote:
I’ve got a battery problem.
During the last 5-day trip, the batteries worked very well, but one was
hotter than normal. On day 4 it started blowing steam and stinking up the
whole boat. I switched the battery selector to 2 so the alternator would
stop charging that battery. Back at the dock, I disconnected the hot lead
going from the battery charger to the failed steaming battery, but the
battery charger (the one that run on AC power) would not start unless I put
that lead back in. I then disconnected the pos and neg cables from the
steaming battery (and bolted them together so they are connected), but
still the charger won’t start charging.I put a spare starting battery in that position and now, the charger
starts and charges, but, even though the amp meter shows full and the
charger drops to float charge, when I turn on any device (water presure
pump, cockpit light, spreader light, blower, etc…) the meter for battery
2 bounced down to zero and sometimes inches up to 4 or 7 volts until I turn
off that device.I have two questions
1. Why do I need a battery in position 1 for the charger to kick in?
2. What is causing the remaining battery to show full, but drop to very
low when I turn on a device?
3. If anyone knows why battery 1 got hot and blew steam, I’d like to
know that.Here’s what I have
Statpower 40+ battery charger, set for battery type: flooded. Four wires
connected to the battery charger. Three red, going to the pos terminal of
the three batteries. One black, boing to the neg terminal of the engine
start battery. The neg terminals of all three batteries are connected
togetherThree batteries: one engine start battery, one 4D flooded battery and one
4D sealed battery (AGM or gel??).The battery selector switch has 2, All, 1
The flooded battery is Battery 2 on the switch and the sealed battery is
Battery 1.
The battery that got hot and blew steam is the sealed Battery 1.The flooded Battery 2 got down to 25 percent before I gave up the charger
trouble-shoting and started the engine to charge. This battery stayed
below 50% for about a week.The engine will charge whichever battery is selected on the battery
selector (1, 2 or All).
The starter battery is isolated and dedicated to engine.From the All terminal on the Battery Selector switch, there are red cables
going to an unknown device. Anyone know what this is (see linked images)?http://bodylens.com/battery/mysterybox1.jpg
http://bodylens.com/battery/mysterybox2.jpg_______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Thanks Bob.
I figured a wiring diagram would be necessary, but I don’t have one and the wiring is such a mess of spaghetti that it is hard to determine what goes where. All I can discern now is where the large ga wires go.
This diagram is likely not 100% accurate and only shows the larger ga wires. The smaller ga wires connected to the batteries and perko switches were too tangled to trace with certainty.
http://bodylens.com/battery/batterydiagram.pdf
Neg terminals wired together.
Yes, the batteries are mixed. Battery2 is wet cell, Battery 1 is the sealed. All I know is that it is sealed and probably not the best because it’s a 4D that I could easily lift out of the boat and carry to the garage. Also, the receipts from PO show a 4D with at price of around $160The mystery box pictures are of the same box, what you identified as the windlass reversing solenoid. I should have named the image more clearly. Thanks for identifying that piece.
Age: I’ve had the boat for about 2 years. The blown battery was about a year old, so it’s 3 years old. Battery 2 (the wet cell 4D) is older, age unknown.
If Battery 2 shows full charge, but upon running a device, its volts drop to < 5v, is that battery also shot or could a lose ground also cause that type of reaction?
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Offhand, it sounds like one of your batteries is bad. A bad battery can get very hot when charging, to the point where it will boil away any remaining electrolyte. I suggest having your batteries tested. Flooded batteries can be tested with a device that looks like a large eye-dropper. You open the fill plug and draw a sample of electrolyte from the battery. There are little balls in there that float or a gauge. You use it to check the specific gravity of the electrolyte.
http://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Red-SP101-Battery-Hydrometer/dp/B000JFHMRUYou can’t use this on sealed batteries. That’s why I don’t like them. After charging, test your batteries and get rid of any that fail. Use only distilled water to top them off. You should test and service them once each year.
A pair of 4D’s sound a bit small for a boat the size of a 424. Do you have room for larger batteries? I use 4 golf-cart batteries. You shouldn’t mix batteries either. You are better off having identical house batteries.
Rich
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I had similar challenges when we bought our 422 – lots of wires going strange places that were difficult to trace, poor charging, worse available capacity. Decided to junk it all and start over.
As Rich stated, we went with 4 6v golf cart batteries, a separate starting battery and (though I know there’s some disagreement on this one) a separate windlass battery in the bow.
Primary goals were
– get rid of the 1-2-both-Off switch
– have a system that doesn’t rely on me remembering to do anything
– allow expansion (adding solar and SSB this summer, added AP last year)
– puts the right circuit protection in the right placesI tried to append the schematic without success. (rec’d a msg that the overall limit was reached for attachments.) If anyone wants the schematic and/or wiring diagram, would be happy to share.
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Wavemaker has the same approach Paperbird applied. Our difference is we have
a solar panel that charges all the house batteries to keep the ice going.
Yes, we put in a new fridge in the old space and now we have ice. Amazing!
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The sealed battery may or may not be wet cell. I hope it is, especially if
it was $160. A 4D AGM is around 350-750, and a Gel even more.Ok, I thought they were two different boxes, but now you know what that one
does.The start battery black probably goes to the engine block. Two wires from
the T-503 go to the windlass, the other two, one goes to the battery
switch, the other goes to ships ground. It works by reversing the polarity
of the power at the windlass.The first thing I’d do is clean all the battery terminals, and if you can
borrow one, get a battery tester, either a load or one of the new
electronic ones. The lines that power the windlass should have a 100 amp
breaker in it somewhere, usually looks like a big red button or if newer, a
small black box with a yellow lever and a red button.Where is the boat located?
Bob
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 12:04 AM, cbboat wrote:
Thanks Bob.
I figured a wiring diagram would be necessary, but I don’t have one and
the wiring is such a mess of spaghetti that it is hard to determine what
goes where. All I can discern now is where the large ga wires go.This diagram is likely not 100% accurate and only shows the larger ga
wires. The smaller ga wires connected to the batteries and perko switches
were too tangled to trace with certainty.http://bodylens.com/battery/batterydiagram.pdf
Neg terminals wired together.
Yes, the batteries are mixed. Battery2 is wet cell, Battery 1 is the
sealed. All I know is that it is sealed and probably not the best because
it’s a 4D that I could easily lift out of the boat and carry to the garage.
Also, the receipts from PO show a 4D with at price of around $160The mystery box pictures are of the same box, what you identified as the
windlass reversing solenoid. I should have named the image more clearly.
Thanks for identifying that piece.Age: I’ve had the boat for about 2 years. The blown battery was about a
year old, so it’s 3 years old. Battery 2 (the wet cell 4D) is older, age
unknown.If Battery 2 shows full charge, but upon running a device, its volts drop
to < 5v, is that battery also shot or could a lose ground also cause that
type of reaction?_______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Thanks for the help.
I found the manufacturer of the steamed battery and they confirmed that it is a sealed wet cell battery. So that one is shot because a lot of steam came out of that one.
I will now focus on the remaining battery to see if I can limp along until I can get to the now-upcoming battery replacement project.
Bob, I’ll go clean and retighten the terminals and connections, then see if that remaining battery gets to behaving better. If not, I’ll be getting four golf cart batteries and doing some wire cleanup.
It’s on the gulf coast, in Alabama.
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Get a first class, professional specific gravity tester. These are not usually sold in auto supply stores which typically sell only the type with the colored balls, which are useless for testing deep cycle house batteries or powerufl diesel starting batteries. I also used mine to test batteries befor buying and more than once rejected the batteries offered by a battery shop because their specific gravity wa too low. In one case the clerk put me through to a techie in their home office and she agreed with me that the sp. g. was too low for a “factory fresh” battery.
Norris Larson, formerly of Easy Reach, Hull 206.
On Mon, 4/21/14, wrote:Subject: Re: Battery issues
To:
Date: Monday, April 21, 2014, 9:30 AMOffhand, it sounds like one of your batteries is bad.
A bad battery can get very hot when charging, to the point
where it will boil away any remaining electrolyte. I
suggest having your batteries tested. Flooded
batteries can be tested with a device that looks like a
large eye-dropper. You open the fill plug and draw a
sample of electrolyte from the battery. There are
little balls in there that float or a gauge. You use
it to check the specific gravity of the electrolyte.
http://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Red-SP101-Battery-Hydrometer/dp/B000JFHMRUYou can’t use this on sealed batteries. That’s why I
don’t like them. After charging, test your batteries
and get rid of any that fail. Use only distilled water
to top them off. You should test and service them once
each year.A pair of 4D’s sound a bit small for a boat the size of a
424. Do you have room for larger batteries? I
use 4 golf-cart batteries. You shouldn’t mix batteries
either. You are better off having identical house
batteries.Rich
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Thanks for the tips.
It looks like I’m off to get new batteries. The remaining one still shows full, but still drops to zero with load put on it (i.e. water pressure pump, spreader lights, etc…).
I’m just going to get rid of them (dead steamed one and remaining unknown age wet cell) and get some 6v golf cart batteries. I found a local supplier of US Battery US2000 XC2 232 AH batteries for $120 without core.
Thanks again for the help.
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Wow, that is a good price for the batteries! Hey, if they’re all flooded
cell, you can get an irrigation system that replaces the caps and allows
you to automatically fill the batteries to the proper level.Bob
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 9:09 PM, cbboat wrote:
Thanks for the tips.
It looks like I’m off to get new batteries. The remaining one still shows
full, but still drops to zero with load put on it (i.e. water pressure
pump, spreader lights, etc…).I’m just going to get rid of them (dead steamed one and remaining unknown
age wet cell) and get some 6v golf cart batteries. I found a local supplier
of US Battery US2000 XC2 232 AH batteries for $120 without core.Thanks again for the help.
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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I have not had good luck with West Marine’s AGM
batteries. They only last a few years, at best. My
present batch – 5 Group 31’s and 2 Group 27’s – won’t
hold a charge anymore and I’m going to replace them (in
the fall, just before I take off cruising again). I’d
be interested to hear this group’s thoughts on what
would make an ideal replacement, keeping in mind that
my main battery bank is inside the boat, under the bunk
aft. I’ve always understood that lead/acid batteries
must be located outside the living quarters because
they vent gasses.Quote:
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Several years ago, i converted Whiffler’s house batteries to 4 golf cart batteries. These are much easier to replace the the original large 12 V batteries.
Also have one deep cycle for my computer system, one for my windless, and one generator battery. I use an echo charger for my generator and windless batteries. System overall seems to work well STEVESent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
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It’s important if you have AGMs that you treat them as such. They’re very
forgiving, but they have charge voltages higher than flooded cell
batteries. If maintained like standard batteries, expect 5 years, as AGMs
expect 7 to 8 years. All batteries fail eventually.If I remember correctly, Tor, you replaced them around 2009, which means
they’re years old. That’s the low end of their life span, but not
unacceptable.Frankly, I’m thinking of replacing all mine (7 year old) with flooded cell
with auto fill systems.Bob
On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Steven Weinberg, Ph.D.
wrote:Quote:Several years ago, i converted Whiffler’s house batteries to 4 golf cart
batteries. These are much easier to replace the the original large 12 V
batteries.
Also have one deep cycle for my computer system, one for my windless, and
one generator battery. I use an echo charger for my generator and windless
batteries. System overall seems to work well STEVESent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
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Hey Quent,
How long have you had those Sam’s Club batteries now?
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Quote:
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Thanks, Bob. Gee, I guess it has been that long. My,
how time flies. So, I got 4-1/2 years from this set,
which are used almost constantly (I’m almost never
dockside). Not bad considering the Port Supply price, I
suppose.I have all my charging systems – battery charger, solar
panel & wind generator – set to their AGM settings. I
guess it’s just time.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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That’s a little short of their lifetime. Do you run them way down often?
Although I should talk. I think mine need replacing as well. Afraid to
test them….On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Thanks, Bob. Gee, I guess it has been that long. My,
how time flies. So, I got 4-1/2 years from this set,
which are used almost constantly (I’m almost never
dockside). Not bad considering the Port Supply price, I
suppose.I have all my charging systems – battery charger, solar
panel & wind generator – set to their AGM settings. I
guess it’s just time.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Thanks, Steve. I gather that 6-volt golf cart batteries
may be the best value, but I think I have to stick to
sealed batteries for my location.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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On sunny days, which is to say most days in the Caribbean, the solar panel alone keeps the bank up around 13V. In general I don’t let AGM’s get below 12.2V, higher when new. But these past months, as they’ve lost the ability to hold a charge, they drop nightly to the mid-low 11’s no matter how charged up they get during the day – even after motoring for many hours or running the 60-amp battery charger (via the generator) for a few hours in the evening to charge them up. They simply crash during the night. I’ve just had to deal with it until I got back Stateside.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Hi Tor
Not long. Replaced a set of Interstate gc wet cells we got in 2008 last spring. If they are Deka, and everyone I found said they are, they are a good deal. We replaced 8 wet gc batteries with 6 agm gc batteries. Since we have solar and 200 amps of alternators, our bottleneck is the battery bank acceptance rate. Six agm batteries charge as fast as 8 wet cells.
In the past, we used Sams Club wet cell gc batteries. They lasted about 4 years, but cost back then about $60 each. The agm gc batteries were about $170 each. Group 31 agm that we put in the rv were $180 each.
Are you going camping this summer?
Quent -
Good info, Quent. Thanks.
Alas, no camping for me this summer. It’s once again
time for the other side of cruising, some months of
refreshing, renewing, refitting and re-provisioning
Silverheels so we can get back down to the Caribbean
right after hurricane season, maybe this time to the
western side. So I’ll remain aboard at my home port
boat yard on the St. Johns River in northeast Florida,
with a Home Depot air conditioning unit on the hatch
abaft the mainmast. I’m actually kind of looking
forward to it, tweaking things and generally messing
around with this good old boat some more.How about you? Montana-bound?
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor, you probably know this, but just in case…..During the day when the solar panels are charging the batteries the readings are misleading. You have to have no load, nor any charge to get an accurate Voltmeter reading.
Joe,
On Sunday, April 27, 2014 8:13 AM, Silverheels wrote:On sunny days, which is to say most days in the Caribbean, the solar panel alone keeps the bank up around 13V. In general I don’t let AGM’s get below 12.2V, higher when new. But these past months, as they’ve lost the ability to hold a charge, they drop nightly to the mid-low 11’s no matter how charged up they get during the day – even after motoring for many hours or running the 60-amp battery charger (via the generator) for a few hours in the evening to charge them up. They simply crash during the night. I’ve just had to deal with it until I got back Stateside.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Joe, you’d be amazed at how much I don’t know. I
constantly am. What you say makes perfect sense, but in
any case as soon as any charge is removed from my
current battery bank – charger, solar and/or wind –
they immediately drop to 12.5V and then down to 12.4V
within a minute or so, with or without a draw. Five
minutes later they’re 12.2V and it only gets more
dismal from there. They are shot, plain and simple.Thanks,
Tor
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That’s definitely bad batteries. Sorry, my man. That’s an expensive ticket
item.Bob
On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:On sunny days, which is to say most days in the Caribbean, the solar panel
alone keeps the bank up around 13V. In general I don’t let AGM’s get below
12.2V, higher when new. But these past months, as they’ve lost the ability
to hold a charge, they drop nightly to the mid-low 11’s no matter how
charged up they get during the day – even after motoring for many hours or
running the 60-amp battery charger (via the generator) for a few hours in
the evening to charge them up. They simply crash during the night. I’ve
just had to deal with it until I got back Stateside.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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So you don’t think incense and incantations will help? Bummer.
As for expensive, try pricing these things down-islands. Most Americans don’t realize how cheap things are here. This is why I came back at all this year, because the boat needs a longish list of relatively big-ticket items and it’s so much easier and cheaper here than anywhere else in this hemisphere. Hopefully this season’s spree will set me up for some years to come.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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