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I’m finally replacing Silverheels’ chain plates. They’re now out
and the local machine shop is making up the replacements. Other
than the expected PIA getting to them to take them out, it all
seems pretty straightforward. Any insights out there from others
who have done it already?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Just did this a few weeks ago myself Tor. Here are a few thoughts from
the experience… Have a long pin punch on hand to push out some of the
bolts but in some places you can’t get a punch. The hardest bolts to
get out were the ones in the bulkhead of the v-berth. These were
tightest in their holes. Most of the rest were finger tight. You will
need a helper to hold the wrench when you do the forward main lowers as
the bolts go through the fwd cabin bulkhead. Go ahead and get new bolts
while you are at it and eliminate the last weakest link in the system.
None are really inaccessible but if you have batteries in the stbd laz
and have to wiggle yourself in on top of the battery box, have someone
there to hand you wrenches and parts and to take them from you. Also
helpful on the port side, but not as critical. (and a good headlight of
course). I found an ratcheting box wrench worked really well in
conjunction with a regular combination (open end/box end) wrench for
some and with a regular socket wrench (ratcheting) for others. Some just
don’t have room for a socket wrench. The chain plates in the salon, I
believe they were the top shrouds, offered very little clearance for the
bolt next to the divider between the lockers, but that might vary from
boat to boat depending on the cabinet carpentry. Good time to check
that all are bonded to ground with 8 gauge wire.Good luck.
Pete
On 7/16/2015 6:56 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
I’m finally replacing Silverheels’ chain plates. They’re now out
and the local machine shop is making up the replacements. Other
than the expected PIA getting to them to take them out, it all
seems pretty straightforward. Any insights out there from others
who have done it already?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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By the way, I should never say “myself” for jobs like this as Jill is
valued partner on these jobs and shortens my time on them by many fold.
(and no, she did not have to remind me to say this…)Pete
On 7/16/2015 7:56 PM, Pete Dubler via maillist wrote:
Just did this a few weeks ago myself Tor. Here are a few thoughts
from the experience… Have a long pin punch on hand to push out some
of the bolts but in some places you can’t get a punch. The hardest
bolts to get out were the ones in the bulkhead of the v-berth. These
were tightest in their holes. Most of the rest were finger tight.
You will need a helper to hold the wrench when you do the forward main
lowers as the bolts go through the fwd cabin bulkhead. Go ahead and
get new bolts while you are at it and eliminate the last weakest link
in the system. None are really inaccessible but if you have batteries
in the stbd laz and have to wiggle yourself in on top of the battery
box, have someone there to hand you wrenches and parts and to take
them from you. Also helpful on the port side, but not as critical.
(and a good headlight of course). I found an ratcheting box wrench
worked really well in conjunction with a regular combination (open
end/box end) wrench for some and with a regular socket wrench
(ratcheting) for others. Some just don’t have room for a socket
wrench. The chain plates in the salon, I believe they were the top
shrouds, offered very little clearance for the bolt next to the
divider between the lockers, but that might vary from boat to boat
depending on the cabinet carpentry. Good time to check that all are
bonded to ground with 8 gauge wire.Good luck.
Pete
On 7/16/2015 6:56 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
I’m finally replacing Silverheels’ chain plates. They’re now out
and the local machine shop is making up the replacements. Other
than the expected PIA getting to them to take them out, it all
seems pretty straightforward. Any insights out there from others
who have done it already?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Thanks, Pete. Actually, I’ve taken all the old chain plates out
already. Much of what you said was, indeed, the case, although I
did it all single-handed with no difficulty. Rather than removing
every single partition in the cabinetry, I drilled bolt access
holes thru them with a small hole saw, saving time and effort. I
may cover the holes later for cosmetics, or may just leave them
open for ventilation in there.While the lockers are emptied and awaiting the new chain plates
I’ll unbolt and pull some of the stanchion bases to clean out &
epoxy-fill several wet deck core areas that a surveyor’s infrared
thermography pinpointed for me. Who knew yachting could be this
much fun?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I plan on doing mine right in the cockpit, mast still standing while at
anchor.
KenOn Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:I’m finally replacing Silverheels’ chain plates. They’re now out
and the local machine shop is making up the replacements. Other
than the expected PIA getting to them to take them out, it all
seems pretty straightforward. Any insights out there from others
who have done it already?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Pete, one question, are they all the same size? 15′ long, a 4 bolt pattern
3″ on center and the pin hole. That’s what I’m coming up with before I take
I them out. I plan on replacing then while at anchor.
kenOn Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Pete Dubler via maillist <
> wrote:Just did this a few weeks ago myself Tor. Here are a few thoughts from
the experience… Have a long pin punch on hand to push out some of the
bolts but in some places you can’t get a punch. The hardest bolts to get
out were the ones in the bulkhead of the v-berth. These were tightest in
their holes. Most of the rest were finger tight. You will need a helper
to hold the wrench when you do the forward main lowers as the bolts go
through the fwd cabin bulkhead. Go ahead and get new bolts while you are
at it and eliminate the last weakest link in the system. None are really
inaccessible but if you have batteries in the stbd laz and have to wiggle
yourself in on top of the battery box, have someone there to hand you
wrenches and parts and to take them from you. Also helpful on the port
side, but not as critical. (and a good headlight of course). I found an
ratcheting box wrench worked really well in conjunction with a regular
combination (open end/box end) wrench for some and with a regular socket
wrench (ratcheting) for others. Some just don’t have room for a socket
wrench. The chain plates in the salon, I believe they were the top
shrouds, offered very little clearance for the bolt next to the divider
between the lockers, but that might vary from boat to boat depending on the
cabinet carpentry. Good time to check that all are bonded to ground with
8 gauge wire.Good luck.
Pete
On 7/16/2015 6:56 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
I’m finally replacing Silverheels’ chain plates. They’re now out
and the local machine shop is making up the replacements. Other
than the expected PIA getting to them to take them out, it all
seems pretty straightforward. Any insights out there from others
who have done it already?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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Hi Ken,
All six on my boat are almost identical. Same size, shape, etc but the four holes for the retaining bolts were not all perfectly aligned.  When I made new ones I had the holes drilled to match the old and marked each one for location.
Skip
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Hey Ken,
All Silverheels’ main chain plates share identical lengths & hole spacing. So I’ve left a few in to support the mast while the replacements are being fabricated. The mizzen chain plates are identical to each other except the uppers have a larger size turnbuckle clevis pin hole than the lowers. Again, I left one shroud per side – this time an upper and a lower (plus the running backstays) – in place until the new ones are ready.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Your mishap is what prompted me, Ken. So far all the chain plates I’ve pulled appear sound. They might’ve lasted another few decades, but who knows? I’m not even going to bother dye-testing them at this point. Silly not to replace them now that they’re out.
Glad yours didn’t cost you a dismasting! I presume it was a windward lower that let go?
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
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All of the main shroud chain plates were the same dimensions. Funny
story that… I made mine and then realized that the drill in the 5/8″
slot in the storage box was in fact larger than 5/8 so I ended up making
two sets… Now I keep my calipers beside by drill bits and check every
one before I use it.Pete
On 7/16/2015 9:19 PM, Ken Page via maillist wrote:
Pete, one question, are they all the same size? 15′ long, a 4 bolt pattern
3″ on center and the pin hole. That’s what I’m coming up with before I take
I them out. I plan on replacing then while at anchor.
kenOn Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Pete Dubler via maillist <
> wrote:Just did this a few weeks ago myself Tor. Here are a few thoughts from
the experience… Have a long pin punch on hand to push out some of the
bolts but in some places you can’t get a punch. The hardest bolts to get
out were the ones in the bulkhead of the v-berth. These were tightest in
their holes. Most of the rest were finger tight. You will need a helper
to hold the wrench when you do the forward main lowers as the bolts go
through the fwd cabin bulkhead. Go ahead and get new bolts while you are
at it and eliminate the last weakest link in the system. None are really
inaccessible but if you have batteries in the stbd laz and have to wiggle
yourself in on top of the battery box, have someone there to hand you
wrenches and parts and to take them from you. Also helpful on the port
side, but not as critical. (and a good headlight of course). I found an
ratcheting box wrench worked really well in conjunction with a regular
combination (open end/box end) wrench for some and with a regular socket
wrench (ratcheting) for others. Some just don’t have room for a socket
wrench. The chain plates in the salon, I believe they were the top
shrouds, offered very little clearance for the bolt next to the divider
between the lockers, but that might vary from boat to boat depending on the
cabinet carpentry. Good time to check that all are bonded to ground with
8 gauge wire.Good luck.
Pete
On 7/16/2015 6:56 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
I’m finally replacing Silverheels’ chain plates. They’re now out
and the local machine shop is making up the replacements. Other
than the expected PIA getting to them to take them out, it all
seems pretty straightforward. Any insights out there from others
who have done it already?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
_______________________________________________
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I switched to the same size turnbuckles for all mizzen shrouds while I
was rerigging.On 7/16/2015 9:37 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
Quote:Hey Ken,All Silverheels’ main chain plates share identical lengths & hole spacing. So I’ve left a few in to support the mast while the replacements are being fabricated. The mizzen chain plates are identical to each other except the uppers have a larger size turnbuckle clevis pin hole than the lowers. Again, I left one shroud per side – this time an upper and a lower (plus the running backstays) – in place until the new ones are ready.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Funny yes, but bet it wasn’t haha funny when you first noticed the problem.
Â
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Hey Tor, good for you. That picture of mine might prompt others. I did post
it here somewhere… right? Getting old. Ha. Now that I know they are all
the same within reason. I’ll make then all up then pull the four lowers out
and replace, then one cap shroud at a time. If as you say the 3″ spaced
mounting holes are a little off the centerline, which I find hard to
understand if these were drilled in a milling machine, I’ll epoxy in a few
of the holes and then re-drill.ken
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Your mishap is what prompted me, Ken. So far all the chain plates I’ve
pulled appear sound. They might’ve lasted another few decades, but who
knows? I’m not even going to bother dye-testing them at this point. Silly
not to replace them now that they’re out.Glad yours didn’t cost you a dismasting! I presume it was a windward lower
that let go?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I used a transfer punch to layout the holes rather than measuring the
centers.Pete
On 7/17/2015 9:07 AM, Ken Page via maillist wrote:
Quote:Hey Tor, good for you. That picture of mine might prompt others. I did post
it here somewhere… right? Getting old. Ha. Now that I know they are all
the same within reason. I’ll make then all up then pull the four lowers out
and replace, then one cap shroud at a time. If as you say the 3″ spaced
mounting holes are a little off the centerline, which I find hard to
understand if these were drilled in a milling machine, I’ll epoxy in a few
of the holes and then re-drill.ken
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Your mishap is what prompted me, Ken. So far all the chain plates I’ve
pulled appear sound. They might’ve lasted another few decades, but who
knows? I’m not even going to bother dye-testing them at this point. Silly
not to replace them now that they’re out.Glad yours didn’t cost you a dismasting! I presume it was a windward lower
that let go?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
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Being here down island, if I can’t find a milling machine with someone who
understands it well enough to drill 4 holes 3″ center to center accurately,
I’ll do similar to you but without the transfer punch which I don’t have.
I’ll heavily clamp one old chain plate to the new stock and get a 3/8″
drill started in all four holes. The clevis hole position is not nearly as
important as the spacing between the bolt holes.Ken
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Pete Dubler via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:I used a transfer punch to layout the holes rather than measuring the
centers.Pete
On 7/17/2015 9:07 AM, Ken Page via maillist wrote:
Quote:Hey Tor, good for you. That picture of mine might prompt others. I did
post
it here somewhere… right? Getting old. Ha. Now that I know they are all
the same within reason. I’ll make then all up then pull the four lowers
out
and replace, then one cap shroud at a time. If as you say the 3″ spaced
mounting holes are a little off the centerline, which I find hard to
understand if these were drilled in a milling machine, I’ll epoxy in a few
of the holes and then re-drill.ken
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Your mishap is what prompted me, Ken. So far all the chain plates I’ve
Quote:pulled appear sound. They might’ve lasted another few decades, but who
knows? I’m not even going to bother dye-testing them at this point. Silly
not to replace them now that they’re out.Glad yours didn’t cost you a dismasting! I presume it was a windward
lower
that let go?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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good “field” techniques!
On 7/17/2015 10:06 AM, Ken Page via maillist wrote:
Quote:Being here down island, if I can’t find a milling machine with someone who
understands it well enough to drill 4 holes 3″ center to center accurately,
I’ll do similar to you but without the transfer punch which I don’t have.
I’ll heavily clamp one old chain plate to the new stock and get a 3/8″
drill started in all four holes. The clevis hole position is not nearly as
important as the spacing between the bolt holes.Ken
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Pete Dubler via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:I used a transfer punch to layout the holes rather than measuring the
centers.Pete
On 7/17/2015 9:07 AM, Ken Page via maillist wrote:
Quote:Hey Tor, good for you. That picture of mine might prompt others. I did
post
it here somewhere… right? Getting old. Ha. Now that I know they are all
the same within reason. I’ll make then all up then pull the four lowers
out
and replace, then one cap shroud at a time. If as you say the 3″ spaced
mounting holes are a little off the centerline, which I find hard to
understand if these were drilled in a milling machine, I’ll epoxy in a few
of the holes and then re-drill.ken
On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Your mishap is what prompted me, Ken. So far all the chain plates I’ve
Quote:pulled appear sound. They might’ve lasted another few decades, but who
knows? I’m not even going to bother dye-testing them at this point. Silly
not to replace them now that they’re out.Glad yours didn’t cost you a dismasting! I presume it was a windward
lower
that let go?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
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wait … don’t you mean anchorage techniques? I don’t see any fields ðŸ˜
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Ken,
You wrote, “If as you say the 3″ spaced mounting holes are a little off the centerline…”
I didn’t say that, or notice it on my chain plates. I’m letting the machine shop on the corner cut & drill them for me, all at once and identical. As you say, easy enough to fill & re-drill a few holes if some turn out slightly off, but to my eye they’re identical, probably drilled in a stack as they will be this time.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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To cut the stock to length, try a cut-off disc on your right angle
grinder instead of a hacksaw. Goes a lot easier that hack sawing. You
will go through some discs, but they are very cheap. (wear a respirator
– makes a lot of “dust”). I use this same technique to cut all
stainless that I can. Used it to cut out all the new tangs and delta
plate for the rigging. I then clean up the edges on my small mill or
with a file (same as I would if cut with hack saw or band saw).Pete
On 7/17/2015 11:55 AM, Ken Page via maillist wrote:
Quote:Tor,
Sorry about that, I noticed after I read through the whole thread, that
it was Skip, I think, who mentioned they were possibly not on a centerline.
I’ve already made up a drawing for reference because I had these priced at
a chain-plate specialty shop in Texas … $195 a piece without shipping.
THAT’S why without a doubt I’ll be doing as much work as I possibly can
myself. I found the stock for $120 and whatever on top of that to get it
here in Granada. That’s a decent frugal start! I have dozens of hacksaw
blades, half a dozen grinding discs for the grinder and a few belts for the
belt sander along with a decent set of files. I know how to decently
sharpen a drill bit with my grinder clamped down and I have some of the
best cutting oil (see attachment) for stainless steel. I should be good to
go to get all the holes started, but to get them really straight I want
them to be done in at least a drill press. I have no problem spending a few
bucks for that.
Working on boats in beautiful places, works for me!Ken
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Ken,You wrote, “If as you say the 3” spaced mounting holes are a little off
the centerline…”I didn’t say that, or notice it on my chain plates. I’m letting the
machine shop on the corner cut & drill them for me, all at once and
identical. As you say, easy enough to fill & re-drill a few holes if some
turn out slightly off, but to my eye they’re identical, probably drilled in
a stack as they will be this time.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Thanks Pete, I forgot, I have some of those too. I’ll have to see how the
“mess factor” plays out. Most all my work will be in the cockpit.Ken
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Pete Dubler via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:To cut the stock to length, try a cut-off disc on your right angle grinder
instead of a hacksaw. Goes a lot easier that hack sawing. You will go
through some discs, but they are very cheap. (wear a respirator – makes a
lot of “dust”). I use this same technique to cut all stainless that I
can. Used it to cut out all the new tangs and delta plate for the
rigging. I then clean up the edges on my small mill or with a file (same
as I would if cut with hack saw or band saw).Pete
On 7/17/2015 11:55 AM, Ken Page via maillist wrote:
Quote:Tor,
Sorry about that, I noticed after I read through the whole thread, that
it was Skip, I think, who mentioned they were possibly not on a
centerline.
I’ve already made up a drawing for reference because I had these priced at
a chain-plate specialty shop in Texas … $195 a piece without shipping.
THAT’S why without a doubt I’ll be doing as much work as I possibly can
myself. I found the stock for $120 and whatever on top of that to get it
here in Granada. That’s a decent frugal start! I have dozens of hacksaw
blades, half a dozen grinding discs for the grinder and a few belts for
the
belt sander along with a decent set of files. I know how to decently
sharpen a drill bit with my grinder clamped down and I have some of the
best cutting oil (see attachment) for stainless steel. I should be good to
go to get all the holes started, but to get them really straight I want
them to be done in at least a drill press. I have no problem spending a
few
bucks for that.
Working on boats in beautiful places, works for me!Ken
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Ken,
Quote:You wrote, “If as you say the 3” spaced mounting holes are a little off
the centerline…”I didn’t say that, or notice it on my chain plates. I’m letting the
machine shop on the corner cut & drill them for me, all at once and
identical. As you say, easy enough to fill & re-drill a few holes if some
turn out slightly off, but to my eye they’re identical, probably drilled
in
a stack as they will be this time.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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In my next life I want to be Pete Dubler.
Original Message
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Funny that. I have wanted to be Tor in my next life since I met you.
(by the way, a little homage to you in this month’s article in BWS…
“With a little help from our friends”)(I learned the trick of using cut-off disks this way from Grant Ball who
runs his own marine service down here in Melbourne and was a shop
teacher in a prior life. Seems every time we discuss a project, I learn
more from him… just like I do from Tor).Pete
On 7/17/2015 12:33 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
Quote:In my next life I want to be Pete Dubler.
Original Message
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Ken,
You & Pete are surely among the most skilled craftsmen among us 424 owners. If I HAD TO, I could fabricate chain plates by myself. I have the basic tools and there’s a drill press here at the yard. But there’s also a classic country machine shop on the corner at the boat yard entrance. The owner, Chuck Coats, has made all kinds of neat stuff for Silverheels over the years, and he’s making these new chain plates. They won’t be electro-polished (although I believe he has the machine), but he’ll dress them at least as well as Pearson did. I don’t have the final cost yet, but I expect it’ll be around $300 for all 12 (8 main, 4 mizzen) in 316 stainless, including new bolts, nuts, & washers (at Fastenal’s trade price). When it comes to this kind of thing, I don’t shop around. Chuck’s here, he’s good, and (since we pick guitar together once in a while) he charges me “good ol’ boy” rates.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Yes, very good price.
On 7/17/2015 12:42 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
Quote:Ken,You & Pete are surely among the most skilled craftsmen among us 424 owners. If I HAD TO, I could fabricate chain plates by myself. I have the basic tools and there’s a drill press here at the yard. But there’s also a classic country machine shop on the corner at the boat yard entrance. The owner, Chuck Coats, has made all kinds of neat stuff for Silverheels over the years, and he’s making these new chain plates. They won’t be electro-polished (although I believe he has the machine), but he’ll dress them at least as well as Pearson did. I don’t have the final cost yet, but I expect it’ll be around $300 for all 12 (8 main, 4 mizzen) in 316 stainless, including new bolts, nuts, & washers (at Fastenal’s trade price). When it comes to this kind of thing, I don’t shop around. Chuck’s here, he’s good, and (since we pick guitar together once in a while) he charges me “good ol’ boy” rates.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Yes I’m the guilty party that said they aren’t identical.  Maybe I just got lucky but when I pulled my old chainplates and stacked them the holes did not all line up perfectly. They weren’t off dramatically but enough that a quick eyeball was enough to show it right away
Guess it was Friday afternoon on a holiday weekend when Pearson made my chainplates.
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Roger,
Yes, your first email came through all right. Looks like you
upstaged us all. Beautiful in the photo!You mentioned putting “weep holes at the bottom of the fiberglass
mountings.” My chain plates pass directly through the deck, the
entry covered and sealed by fitted, bedded deck plates or
whatever they’re called. There are no “mountings.” Where exactly
are you putting (drilling?) weep holes?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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That’ll be handy next time… in 2050.
😉
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Hello everyone,
I have been following the chain plate string and I’m about to replace mine
as well. The info has been great since I am in Toronto right now and will
be able to have the chain plates fabricated and bring them back to
Carriacou with me in September.As I am off the boat right now I just have a couple of questions for those
that have done this.What is the length of the 3/8 ” bolts for the main plates?
What is the length of the mizzen chain plates and bolt spacing and are they
the same size holes as the mains?Ken, if you can’t find someone in St. Georges, there is a a couple of good
shops in Tyrrell Bay, Carriacou that can drill them for you or assist you I
any way. One is Dominique, he has the floating work shop in the harbor and
the other one is up behind the Lazy Turtle pizza place.Jack
Xanadu
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Thanks Jack, the bolts that came out of the aft lower mainmast are 2″ long.
The shop in Texas that I contacted said my drawing was sufficient for them
to start making them if I wanted. The new question I have now is what it
the correct dimension for the clevis pin hole. I just measured the pins,
they are 5/8″ or 0.625″ As I noted before in this thread the hole size of
my lower aft plate was a clear 1/32″ over size, about 0.658″. Looking at my
rig still standing, not being able to use calipers, the holes in the plates
look like a tighter fit, to my eye. Maybe Tor with his out can give us a
better idea or have his shop measure the holes for us.Ken
On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Jack P Clarke via maillist <
> wrote:Hello everyone,
I have been following the chain plate string and I’m about to replace mine
as well. The info has been great since I am in Toronto right now and will
be able to have the chain plates fabricated and bring them back to
Carriacou with me in September.As I am off the boat right now I just have a couple of questions for those
that have done this.What is the length of the 3/8 ” bolts for the main plates?
What is the length of the mizzen chain plates and bolt spacing and are they
the same size holes as the mains?Ken, if you can’t find someone in St. Georges, there is a a couple of good
shops in Tyrrell Bay, Carriacou that can drill them for you or assist you I
any way. One is Dominique, he has the floating work shop in the harbor and
the other one is up behind the Lazy Turtle pizza place.Jack
Xanadu
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Jack & Ken,
My chain plates used mostly 2″ bolts, but also at least one
2-1/2″ bolt each. The longer ones accommodate the grounding wire
terminals and a second nut to secure them. So you’ll need at
least one 2-1/2″ bolt per chain plate plus the extra nut. A few
had 2 long bolts, but now that all the bolts are out I’m not how
many. Best to have several extras.The old chain plates I pulled are at the shop, which is closed
until Monday. So I can’t measure the clevis pin holes or mizzen
chain plate lengths for you before then. The mizzen bars use the
same 5/8″ bolts, again including at least one 2-1/2″ long each
for the grounding wires & extra nut. However, the mizzen clevis
pins are different sizes, smaller (of course) than the mainmast
rigging, but also different from each other, at least on my boat,
the upper mizzen shroud clevis pin being a bit larger diameter
than the lower shroud clevis pin. Those chain plates are also
locked up in the machine shop ’til Monday. I’ll go there Monday
morning and get the following measurements:– main chain plate total length
– main chain plate clevis pin hole size
– main chain plate hole spacing
– mizzen chain plate total length
– mizzen upper chain plate clevis pin hole size
– mizzen lower shroud chain plate clevis pin hole size
– mizzen chain plate hole spacingI’m using 316 ss for the chain plates, but 304 ss for the new
fasteners. I expect it’ll be cheaper buying them by the box and
so may wind up with leftovers, but this is what I figure I need:(18) 2-1/2″ bolts, 3/8″
(32) 2″ bolts, 3/8″
(60) 3/8″ nuts
(88) washers, 7/8″ O.D. x 3/8″ I.D.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Yup ,Tor is right, I forgot about the one extra long for the grounding
wire. I personally might not have a problem using some or all of the old
bolts, they weren’t the problem, the lack of oxygen at the deck is the
problem here. I plan on molding new epoxy all through the deck core area,
similar to how I repaired the stanchion bases, remove all soft core
material as needed and fill with thickened epoxy so the passage through the
deck of the chainplate is as tight and solid as possible while still
leaving room for air. Wrapping the plate in wax paper and temp. inserting
and bolting should do the trick. I intend to seal the deck only at the deck
plate level and rebed as needed. Never will I force caulking down into the
space between the chain plate and the deck. Well maybe a tiny bit!
That’s my opinion at this point, of course things can change as I dig in.Ken
On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 5:01 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Jack & Ken,My chain plates used mostly 2″ bolts, but also at least one
2-1/2″ bolt each. The longer ones accommodate the grounding wire
terminals and a second nut to secure them. So you’ll need at
least one 2-1/2″ bolt per chain plate plus the extra nut. A few
had 2 long bolts, but now that all the bolts are out I’m not how
many. Best to have several extras.The old chain plates I pulled are at the shop, which is closed
until Monday. So I can’t measure the clevis pin holes or mizzen
chain plate lengths for you before then. The mizzen bars use the
same 5/8″ bolts, again including at least one 2-1/2″ long each
for the grounding wires & extra nut. However, the mizzen clevis
pins are different sizes, smaller (of course) than the mainmast
rigging, but also different from each other, at least on my boat,
the upper mizzen shroud clevis pin being a bit larger diameter
than the lower shroud clevis pin. Those chain plates are also
locked up in the machine shop ’til Monday. I’ll go there Monday
morning and get the following measurements:– main chain plate total length
– main chain plate clevis pin hole size
– main chain plate hole spacing
– mizzen chain plate total length
– mizzen upper chain plate clevis pin hole size
– mizzen lower shroud chain plate clevis pin hole size
– mizzen chain plate hole spacingI’m using 316 ss for the chain plates, but 304 ss for the new
fasteners. I expect it’ll be cheaper buying them by the box and
so may wind up with leftovers, but this is what I figure I need:(18) 2-1/2″ bolts, 3/8″
(32) 2″ bolts, 3/8″
(60) 3/8″ nuts
(88) washers, 7/8″ O.D. x 3/8″ I.D.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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You’re probably right about the bolts being OK, Ken. One of the heads broke off during removal, but I’ve cleaned up the rest and they all appear to be sound. I’m just going for overkill. Maybe I ought to check the price of the new replacements first, though. It’s not like they’d all suddenly disintegrate and let the chain plate pull out. If I were down-islands I’d definitely re-use them.
So far I’ve only noted one deck core issue at one of the chain plates, which I’ll fill as you said.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Roger,
So the weep holes you’re planning will be drilled through the
fiberglass “under-deck” to allow intruding water to gravity-drain
out of the balsa core? Sure, why not? If you find it wet inside
the locker you’ll know it’s past time to re-bed the chain plate
deck plates.So far I’ve found superficial rust and some minor pitting on the
chain plates almost exclusively on the section that lived inside
the cored deck, the result of PO’s not re-bedding the deck plates
often enough. Above and below that the chain plates are pretty
clean. No issues around the grounding wire contact points. It was
seeing rust bleeding down several chain plates beneath the deck
that prompted me to do this replacement, since I could not tell
what was going on inside the core. So far Silverheels’ chain
plates appear to be perfectly sound, but they could’ve just as
easily been like Ken’s.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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BINGO! Thanks Tor …..*( the result of PO’s not re-bedding the deck plates*
*often enough.) *This is the most important thing for any of us to know.
The bedding on deck fittings does not last more than 5 years. Yes you can
wait 10 years or even 15 but the simple job of “just” re-bedding goes away
after 5 years, 9 times out of 10.This is basic boat yard logic I’m
expressing here. JMHO
KenOn Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Roger,So the weep holes you’re planning will be drilled through the
fiberglass “under-deck” to allow intruding water to gravity-drain
out of the balsa core? Sure, why not? If you find it wet inside
the locker you’ll know it’s past time to re-bed the chain plate
deck plates.So far I’ve found superficial rust and some minor pitting on the
chain plates almost exclusively on the section that lived inside
the cored deck, the result of PO’s not re-bedding the deck plates
often enough. Above and below that the chain plates are pretty
clean. No issues around the grounding wire contact points. It was
seeing rust bleeding down several chain plates beneath the deck
that prompted me to do this replacement, since I could not tell
what was going on inside the core. So far Silverheels’ chain
plates appear to be perfectly sound, but they could’ve just as
easily been like Ken’s.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Here are the measurements I took from Silverheels’ chain plates:
8 main chain plates
T-W-L 3/8″ x 1-15/32″ x 15 to 15-1/2″
clevis pin hole size 21/32″
clevis to 1st bolt 1-1/4″
bolt hole spacing 3″4 mizzen chain plates 2 w/larger clevis pin, 2 w/smaller clevis
pin
T-W-L 3/16″ x 1-7/32″ x 11-1/2″
upper shroud clevis hole 15/32″
lower shroud clevis hole 13/32″ or a hair less
clevis to 1st bolt 5-7/16″ or 5-1/2″
1st to 2nd bolt 2-5/16″
2nd to 3rs bolt 2-1/16″I hope I haven’t inadvertently written “16th” someplace when I
meant “32nd.” I believe these numbers are accurate, but use your
own good judgment.The chain plates and their holes are not identical. It appears
Pearson used a ruler and punch to locate the holes and drilled
each piece separately, which would be customary back then. So
there are slight variations. Chances are if you make up a new set
all alike (as I’m doing), some of the bolt holes in the knees
will be a little off. We may have to fill & re-drill a few, as
Ken suggested.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hey Tor,
Just checking
8? main chain plates?…..not 6?
clevis to first bolt 1 1/4″? That’s not even to deck level on mine.Ken
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Here are the measurements I took from Silverheels’ chain plates:
8 main chain plates
T-W-L 3/8″ x 1-15/32″ x 15 to 15-1/2″
clevis pin hole size 21/32″
clevis to 1st bolt 1-1/4″
bolt hole spacing 3″4 mizzen chain plates 2 w/larger clevis pin, 2 w/smaller clevis
pin
T-W-L 3/16″ x 1-7/32″ x 11-1/2″
upper shroud clevis hole 15/32″
lower shroud clevis hole 13/32″ or a hair less
clevis to 1st bolt 5-7/16″ or 5-1/2″
1st to 2nd bolt 2-5/16″
2nd to 3rs bolt 2-1/16″I hope I haven’t inadvertently written “16th” someplace when I
meant “32nd.” I believe these numbers are accurate, but use your
own good judgment.The chain plates and their holes are not identical. It appears
Pearson used a ruler and punch to locate the holes and drilled
each piece separately, which would be customary back then. So
there are slight variations. Chances are if you make up a new set
all alike (as I’m doing), some of the bolt holes in the knees
will be a little off. We may have to fill & re-drill a few, as
Ken suggested.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hi Tor, we met briefly in big Majors a few years ago. I replaced 7 of the 8 on my sloop, Island Bound in 2001. They all looked great at the time but at that time the rig was 23 years old. As you said it was very straightforward. I had the riggers replace all the standing rigging in 2001 as well. I left off the bow stem fitting at that time, as it was more complicated. Last year I met some folks on a Pacific Seacraft with a vintage 1978 boat like mine who did the same thing as me, namely replaced all chain plates except the stem fitting. They broke the stem fitting crossing the Gulf Stream. So having learned a lesson from someone else, I had a machine shop weld up a new stem fitting last year for me, so now they are all done. The welder suggested not recessing the bolt holes, which sounded good to me, so that’s what he did. Hope this helps, Cindy Stein
-
Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Chain plates
Hi Tor, we met briefly in big Majors a few years ago. I replaced 7 of the 8 on my sloop, Island Bound in 2001. They all looked great at the time but at that time the rig was 23 years old. As you said it was very straightforward. I had the riggers replace all the standing rigging in 2001 as well. I left off the bow stem fitting at that time, as it was more complicated. Last year I met some folks on a Pacific Seacraft with a vintage 1978 boat like mine who did the same thing as me, namely replaced all chain plates except the stem fitting. They broke the stem fitting crossing the Gulf Stream. So having learned a lesson from someone else, I had a machine shop weld up a new stem fitting last year for me, so now they are all done. The welder suggested not recessing the bolt holes, which sounded good to me, so that’s what he did. Hope this helps, Cindy Stein
End of attached email
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Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Chain plates
Hi Tor, we met briefly in big Majors a few years ago. I replaced 7 of the 8 on my sloop, Island Bound in 2001. They all looked great at the time but at that time the rig was 23 years old. As you said it was very straightforward. I had the riggers replace all the standing rigging in 2001 as well. I left off the bow stem fitting at that time, as it was more complicated. Last year I met some folks on a Pacific Seacraft with a vintage 1978 boat like mine who did the same thing as me, namely replaced all chain plates except the stem fitting. They broke the stem fitting crossing the Gulf Stream. So having learned a lesson from someone else, I had a machine shop weld up a new stem fitting last year for me, so now they are all done. The welder suggested not recessing the bolt holes, which sounded good to me, so that’s what he did. Hope this helps, Cindy Stein
End of attached email
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Hi Cindy,
Yes, of course I remember meeting at Big Majors. I have a nice
photo of our 424’s (plus Bill Tice’s) sharing the harbor that
day.I considered replacing Silverheels’ headstay chain plate / stem
head fitting. As you point out, it’s a more complicated
fabrication, but more to the point I can see it plainly and have
inspected it closely, literally with a magnifying glass. I’m
confident keeping it for now. That said, I suppose it would do no
harm to check it with some of that dye I’ve heard of that makes
invisible stress cracks show up. (Anybody know what it’s called
and where to get it? Anyone know of an around-the-house
alternative?) Also, I installed a rock-solid inner forestay on
Silverheels just 6 years ago, which might buy me some time to
take the load off the mainmast if the headstay fitting ever
proved me wrong.Frankly, had I known how sound my old chain plates still are I’d
have left them alone – would cross an ocean with them tomorrow.
But I couldn’t see them to know that without pulling them, and
once they’re out, well, it’d be silly NOT to spend $300 and put
in new ones.I think I’ll head directly to the Exumas after this storm season,
at least for a while. Maybe I’ll see you down there!Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Ken,
Actually, Silverheels’ mainmast has 9 chain plates, but I’m not changing the headstay’s bow fitting, which is easy to inspect. The 8 I am changing are:
4 lowers (2 per side)
2 uppers (1 each side)
2 (double) backstays
I suppose you’d only have 7 (8 including the headstay) on a sloop or cutter rig with a single backstay.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Sorry, I mistyped the main chain plates’ clevis pin to 1st bolt measurement. It’s 4-1/4″, not 1-1/4″.
Tor
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I was surprised when I pulled my headstay chain plate (stem fitting) out
of the box of parts after repainting the queen and found a big crack in
it. Garhauer made an exact replacement for us at a very fair price
(which I do not recall). I just sent them the old one and they sent me
back a beautiful replacement. So all in all, every thing holding up the
masts is new on our boat.Pete
On 7/21/2015 4:50 PM, Silverheels via maillist wrote:
Quote:Hi Cindy,Yes, of course I remember meeting at Big Majors. I have a nice
photo of our 424’s (plus Bill Tice’s) sharing the harbor that
day.I considered replacing Silverheels’ headstay chain plate / stem
head fitting. As you point out, it’s a more complicated
fabrication, but more to the point I can see it plainly and have
inspected it closely, literally with a magnifying glass. I’m
confident keeping it for now. That said, I suppose it would do no
harm to check it with some of that dye I’ve heard of that makes
invisible stress cracks show up. (Anybody know what it’s called
and where to get it? Anyone know of an around-the-house
alternative?) Also, I installed a rock-solid inner forestay on
Silverheels just 6 years ago, which might buy me some time to
take the load off the mainmast if the headstay fitting ever
proved me wrong.Frankly, had I known how sound my old chain plates still are I’d
have left them alone – would cross an ocean with them tomorrow.
But I couldn’t see them to know that without pulling them, and
once they’re out, well, it’d be silly NOT to spend $300 and put
in new ones.I think I’ll head directly to the Exumas after this storm season,
at least for a while. Maybe I’ll see you down there!Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Good to know, Pete. Besides the lower swage fitting on our staysail stay, the stem fitting is the only other thing in our rig that makes me nervous. How hard was it to get to the back of the fasteners?
Evan
Revery
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Just gotta lay on your back in the deck anchor locker. Nice to have
Jill to help pull me out of that position, but I have gotten out of
their on my own a few times. Keeping track of all the parts (lock
washers and nuts) while in this position is a trick. And you need
someone holding the #3 or #4 philips screwdriver on the outside.On 7/21/2015 7:40 PM, Evan Morgan via maillist wrote:
Quote:Good to know, Pete. Besides the lower swage fitting on our staysail stay, the stem fitting is the only other thing in our rig that makes me nervous. How hard was it to get to the back of the fasteners?Evan
Revery
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Tor,
Thanks for going to all the trouble of remeasuring the chain plates. At
least I’ll be able to get them cut up in Toronto and pick up all of the
hardware.I’ll drill all of the turnbuckle holes up here and have the bolt holes
drilled one plate at a time or something like that.Jack
Xanadu
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I long ago cut a deck access hole abaft the stemhead and afterwards covered it with a removable plate. At the time I was re-positioning the anchor rollers and needed to get at the bolt nuts underneath, but it provides ready access to those stemhead fitting bolts, too.
Alas, as a single-hander I didn’t have Jill to pull me out of the chain locker and so had to come up with an alternative.
😉
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Would love to do that, Tor, but my windlass sits between the stem head and the deck locker. Luckily, I have a Debra (and a young-ish body) to help me out of that hole.
Pete, thanks for easing my mind. I hadn’t explored that part if the boat much yet.
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My windlass is behind the deck anchor locker. With your windlass
forward of the locker, it might be a challenge to reach around the
portion of the windlass that is below deck. But, if you have to change
the stem fitting, go ahead and pull the windlass and see if the bearings
and seals are in in shape (cheap parts to replace if needed but often
overlooked until a windlass locks up).On 7/21/2015 9:22 PM, Evan Morgan via maillist wrote:
Quote:Would love to do that, Tor, but my windlass sits between the stem head and the deck locker. Luckily, I have a Debra (and a young-ish body) to help me out of that hole.
Pete, thanks for easing my mind. I hadn’t explored that part if the boat much yet.
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I think you guys with willing mates and youngish bodies have the preferable solution.
😉
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I pulled mine a couple of years back. There was some minor corrosion on the underside of them. I cleaned them with a flap-sander followed by a scotch-brite wheel using an angle grinder. They cleaned up nicely and there was no sign of cracks. I reinstalled them. I’ve been pretty careful over the years to keep them caulked so water doesn’t get down into the lockers. I suppose that if previous owners weren’t careful to keep water out they could need replacement.
If I had to replace mine I would have bought the stock and made my own replacements. Drilling stainless isn’t advised unless you have the right tools. It may be easier to just send the stock out to a good fab shop and let them deal with it. I priced replacements from a marine fabricator and his price was nuts. I don’t remember what he quoted but it was probably $200 each. There are supply stores online that sell stainless stock by the foot. Cutting the stock to the right length isn’t a big deal with a cutoff saw, but drilling the holes can go through drill bits if you don’t do it right and have good bits.
Removing the chainplates is a PIA. I had to disassemble much of the cabinetry in the main cabin. Many of the screws wouldn’t come out and had to be drilled. I replaced the bolts and nuts along the way, short money for a few dozen fasteners. I think the whole job took me about 8 hrs.
Rich
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Rich,
I’m sure you made the right choice, and I know you could fabricate your own
and they’d be shop-perfect. My chain plates look good, too – probably
would’ve been fine for a few more decades – but I couldn’t know that until I
pulled them, and since they’re out now (and because I take the boat
offshore) I’ll go ahead and replace them now. I believe I could’ve made them
up myself, but there’s a friendly, affordable machine shop a block away that
only charged me $350 for 12 new ones in 316 stainless, drilled, dressed &
ready to go.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor,
That price has me blown away. If I had waited I would have begged you to
have another set made up there in that shop and have you send me the set.
I’ve seen that friendly little shop and will forever keep it in mind now.
I’ll get away with making my six for about the same money but a substantial
amount of time with the tools I have at hand.On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 9:56 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Rich,I’m sure you made the right choice, and I know you could fabricate your own
and they’d be shop-perfect. My chain plates look good, too – probably
would’ve been fine for a few more decades – but I couldn’t know that until
I
pulled them, and since they’re out now (and because I take the boat
offshore) I’ll go ahead and replace them now. I believe I could’ve made
them
up myself, but there’s a friendly, affordable machine shop a block away
that
only charged me $350 for 12 new ones in 316 stainless, drilled, dressed &
ready to go.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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$350 for a whole set sure beats $200 ea! At that price it’s hardly worth the effort to clean the old ones.
Rich
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Ken,
Green Cove Springs may be (just barely) in Florida, but it’s a south Georgia town at heart and more than a little “country.” That machine shop owner and I are friends, or at least pretty friendly. He’s done a lot of unusual jobs for Silverheels over the past 8+ years – once helped me turn an old mountain bike into a folding bike. We’ve picked guitar together on the boat yard porch, occasionally shoot the breeze at the shop; he once gave me a cut of venison when he got back from deer hunting up in Kentucky. Chuck’s a “good ol’ boy” and I’m pretty much a local around here by now. Plus, I caught him at a relatively quiet time with this project. So he didn’t charge me as much as he rightfully could – as usual. I don’t think he could sell sets of finished chain plates by mail order for $350 – it probably wouldn’t be fair to the shop – but even at a “normal” price by local standards I expect they’d still be less expensive than most sources.
If anyone’s interested in a set of P424 chain plates, call Coats at (904) 466-6617. Y’all tell ’em Tor sent ya’.
🙂
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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The deal blew me away as well.  I ordered SS316 bar stock on line, cut it and paid a local machine shop to drill the holes and cost me a good bit more that $350.
One question, did the shop also do electro polishing?  From what I read, that or a similar process is needed to keep the SS from pitting and rusting over time.Â
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My sentiments precisely, Rich.
See my previous email for price clarification.
Tor
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Skip,
No, my shop did not electro-polish the new plates. Neither did Pearson and theirs (on this boat) are still in good condition after almost 40 years. How long do you figure you need yours to last?
I did have my shop disc-polish the tops, almost down to the 1st bolt hole, which may be beneficial. Will let you know in 2050.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Chain-plates on these boats is a hot topic I see. I have just inspected and re-bedded mine on OneEighty last week and they looked ok, visually. Of course the part that is most affected by galvanic degradation is the part that is hidden in the balsa core decking. I had one break on my P323 before I got the 424 and replaced all chain-plates then. The 323 was also a 1979 but it had spent its life on salt water. On this boat I have hesitated replacement thinking that since this boat was in fresh water most of its life, (Ive had her only 5 years in salt environment) that they may not have had the exposure for galvanic decay. On the 323, rust wasn’t the issue, it was galvanic action.
So I am curious about what you guys are finding when you pull them out. Tor, I read your comment that they looked o.k., but you were not going to do a dye test on them. Replacement is on my list, I’m just wondering if it should be on the A list or the B list.
Charlie
OneEighty hull#54 -
Charlie,
You’re probably right about the freshwater years not degrading the chain
plates much if at all. Silverheels lived her first 15 years in the Great
Lakes, and it shows all over the boat. Bottom line: If the chain plates
don’t break before you replace them, then they were OK on the B list. If
they do break before you replace them, they belonged on the A list.I hope that resolves the matter for you.
Good luck.
Reef early,
😉
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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