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I am at last nearing the end of my transmission failure saga. The 3 year
old Velvet Drive failed last month as I was approaching the dock here in
Jacksonville (no reverse). I’ve had the transmission re-built, but I have
not re-installed it while trying to get some idea of why it might have
failed.
I have determined that the original damper plate is defective. All of the
springs are loose, and a local technician told me they should all be under
tension. Thus I have suspect Number One for the failure. I replaced the
plate, but the one Mack Boring shipped is completely different than the
original one. This one does not have springs, rather rubber-like bearings.
The yard that did my re-power says the original plate is typical of ones
used with VDs and the new one is the type Yanmar uses with their Japanese
transmissions.
I still haven’t gotten the VD back from the shop, so I don’t know what
effect the new plate will have. My hope is I will have significantly
reduced gear backlash once everything is back in place.Other than Alan, I haven’t heard anyone complain of a similar loud gear back
lash in their V-Drive. So I thought it would be interesting to get the
following metrics from as many owner as possible.– Type of Engine
– Type of Transmission and gear ratio
– V-Drive model
– RPMs at idle
– Gear Backlash Level:
– None
– Slight
– LoudFor the record (before the transmission failure) my metrics were:
Engine: Yanmar 4JH4-AE
Transmission: VD Direct Drive (1:1)
V-Drive: RV-26, same backlash with RV-20
Idle RPMS: 750
Gear Backlash: Very Loud—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
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Alan,
Any metrics you can share?On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Alan wrote:
Quote:I would not characterize the noise I have have has “backlash”….. more
like a machine gun going off until I increase the RPM…… ???
alan— On Wed, 12/15/10, John Stevenson wrote:
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John,
I have the exact same engine and transmission…..no backlash at 750 rpm…so I
don’t know why you would be getting any.Joe
Half Moon #71________________________________
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Thanks, Joe.
That tells me if the new plate and rebuilt transmission still produces
significant backlash I may have another problem.On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
Quote:John,I have the exact same engine and transmission…..no backlash at 750
rpm…so I
don’t know why you would be getting any.Joe
Half Moon #71________________________________
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For those interested here is a link to the web page on my issues:
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewVelvetDriveFailure.htmlOn Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:41 PM, John Stevenson wrote:
Quote:Thanks, Joe.
That tells me if the new plate and rebuilt transmission still produces
significant backlash I may have another problem.On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
Quote:John,I have the exact same engine and transmission…..no backlash at 750
rpm…so I
don’t know why you would be getting any.Joe
Half Moon #71________________________________
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I put a new damper plate on…. Westerbeke Original part (with springs) AND had the VDrive rebuilt…. so I am not entirely positive WHAT is generating the noise except that is it coming from the VDrive.
Type of Engine Westerbekre W58
– Type of Transmission and gear ratio Velvet Drive 2:1 I think
– V-Drive model RV20
– RPMs at idle 700
– Gear Backlash Level: LOUD— On Wed, 12/15/10, John Stevenson wrote:
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Alan,
Those are the symptoms I had before the failure. If the other owners do not
have the same backlash with similar configurations (as Joe does not), then
we both may still have some problems that need to be resolved.
My backlash noise disappears above 1,000 RPM, which is where the W60 idled.
So my previous acceptance of the backlash was based on the reduced idle RPMs
of the Yanmar/VD configuration. Now I don’t know. I was hoping everyone
with idle RPMS around 750 had the same backlash noise. Joe’s response says,
“Not so”.On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Alan wrote:
Quote:I put a new damper plate on…. Westerbeke Original part (with springs) AND
had the VDrive rebuilt…. so I am not entirely positive WHAT is generating
the noise except that is it coming from the VDrive.Type of Engine Westerbekre W58
– Type of Transmission and gear ratio Velvet Drive 2:1 I think
– V-Drive model RV20
– RPMs at idle 700
– Gear Backlash Level: LOUD— On Wed, 12/15/10, John Stevenson wrote:
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Alan,
That would provide good info. Even though I accept that the V-drive is not
the source of the problem (had it with the RV-20 and RV-26) it would be
re-assuring to hear that Walters completely signs off on that. I’ll know
more when my VD is back in place. Having some difficulty getting the
attention of the VD shop right now, so that may not happen until after I get
back from Europe over the holidays.
Right, I’ve been freezing my ass off in Jacksonville, but now that the temps
are going back to normal I’m getting on a plane to Poland. That’s what
cruising does to you. You meet lots of neat folks. I’ll spend Christmas
with friends I met in Cascais, PT 5 years ago. He’s German, She’s Polish.
Right now they are off their boat in Sevilla and living in an apartment near
her parents in the NE corner of Poland next to the Belarus border. I’ve had
to buy a bunch of cold weather clothes, something I thought I would never
have to do again. It’s what you do for friends.On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Alan wrote:
Quote:I may remove the VDrive and drive it Walters to have it bench tested (in my
presence) while the boat is on the hard.
Alan— On Wed, 12/15/10, John Stevenson wrote:
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I hear ya…. after spending last winter in the Carib…… I am back in Rochester where we’ve gotten over 44 inches of snow so far in just December…..
Don Walter is pretty sure the VDrive OK also but is willing to put it on the test bench just to make sure…. and to please me……
I wonder if the noise will go away or lessen after the damper plate has a few miles on it?
Alan— On Wed, 12/15/10, John Stevenson wrote:
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Type of Engine Westerbeke W58
– Type of Transmission and gear ratio Velvet Drive 1:1
– V-Drive model RV20 2:1
– RPMs at idle 800
– Gear Backlash Level: moderate but smooths out at 1,000 rpm
Westerbeke damper plate
We replaced damper and rebuilt both trans and v-drive when we got Clairebuoyant. Two damper plate springs were in the bottom of the bellhousing when we got her.
It would also be interesting to know how much play there is in the v-drive between input and output shafts, and what prop and stuffing box is used. We do have a bit of play probably from the u joints in the input shaft housing.
At low speed the diesel might be a bit rough, but there would also be less drag on the v-drive output shaft. Things would bang around a bit more in the v-drive.
The VD is a strong transmission. It should handle a lot more power than these small diesels produce.
Is it possible something in the VD broke off and jammed up the works?
Quent -
“I wonder if the noise will go away or lessen after the damper plate has a
few miles on it?”
That is certainly my hopeOn Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Alan wrote:
Quote:I hear ya…. after spending last winter in the Carib…… I am back in
Rochester where we’ve gotten over 44 inches of snow so far in just
December…..
Don Walter is pretty sure the VDrive OK also but is willing to put it on
the test bench just to make sure…. and to please me……
I wonder if the noise will go away or lessen after the damper plate has a
few miles on it?
Alan— On Wed, 12/15/10, John Stevenson wrote:
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Quent,
The VD shop told me no loose stuff, just chewed up gears.On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:51 PM, John Stevenson wrote:
Quote:“I wonder if the noise will go away or lessen after the damper plate has a
few miles on it?”
That is certainly my hopeOn Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Alan wrote:
Quote:I hear ya…. after spending last winter in the Carib…… I am back in
Rochester where we’ve gotten over 44 inches of snow so far in just
December…..
Don Walter is pretty sure the VDrive OK also but is willing to put it on
the test bench just to make sure…. and to please me……
I wonder if the noise will go away or lessen after the damper plate has a
few miles on it?
Alan— On Wed, 12/15/10, John Stevenson wrote:
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Thanks, Walt.
That is what I experienced with the same engine and trans. However, my idle
RPMs were around 1,000. Boat would do around 3 kts in gear at idle.On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Seawater wrote:
Engine: Westerbeke W60
Transmission: Paragon
V-Drive: RV-20
Idle RPMS: 800
Gear Backlash: ImperceptableProp: Max Prop feathering
Walter
SV Madness
P424 Hull #1_______________________________________________
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Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
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Chewed up gears, not clutch plates? I could be wrong about VD, but in the marine transmissions I’ve seen the gears were always engaged, and the clutch packs got squeezed together to engage the output shaft. I would think that ripping teeth off the gears would take a lot of force, like maybe jamming a log in the prop. Something that you would notice.
Q -
John,
Please define “gear backlash.”
Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Gear Backlash = loud grinding and popping noise coming from the V-Drive.
In my case audible from 50′ off the boat.
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 8:19 PM, SilverHeels wrote:Quote:John,Please define “gear backlash.”
Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Messa Ige
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Oh, THAT noise. Yes, I’ve go it, too, though I don’t know how far from the
boat it’s audible.– Type of Engine Yanmar 4JH4E, fairly new
– Type of Transmission and gear ratio Paragon, Serial No. 32865,
original, rebuilt 400 hrs ago
– V-Drive model Original, serviced 400 hrs ago
– RPMs at idle Around 750, I guess
– Gear Backlash Level: Pretty loud in the cockpit and
annoying to the captain
– None
– Slight
– LoudTor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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John,
On Doris E. I would call it very slight:
Type of Engine Westerbeke W58
– Type of Transmission and gear ratio Velvet Drive 1:1
– V-Drive model RV20 2:1
– RPMs at idle 800
– Gear Backlash Level: slight
Westerbeke damper plate~3200 hrs. on all drive components. Max prop for the last ten years.
Dave
On 12/15/10 7:40 PM, SilverHeels wrote:
Quote:Oh, THAT noise. Yes, I’ve go it, too, though I don’t know how far from the
boat it’s audible.– Type of Engine Yanmar 4JH4E, fairly new
– Type of Transmission and gear ratio Paragon, Serial No. 32865,
original, rebuilt 400 hrs ago
– V-Drive model Original, serviced 400 hrs ago
– RPMs at idle Around 750, I guess
– Gear Backlash Level: Pretty loud in the cockpit and
annoying to the captain
– None
– Slight
– LoudTor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
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John (or anyone else),
Let us know if you derive any useful “gear backlash” conclusions from our
responses to your engine / drive train info request.Thanks,
Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
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Here’s a summary from those reporting. I think I captured everyone
correctly.Based on this data it looks like Alan and I have a problem no one else is
experiencing. While there might be perception differences between a slight
or moderate noise, I am sure anyone having similar backlash volume as Alan
(based on his recording) and I would definitely call it loud if not very
loud. I included the metrics on Sarah before and after the repower to
Yanmar. It appears I had the only Westebecke/Paragon configuration that
idled around 1,000 RPM. That’s the way the engine was set up when I bought
the boat. So I can’t determine if my previous configuration would have
produced loud backlash if the idle had been reduced to around 800 RPM, which
is where the other engines in the survey are set. Maybe it was there and
the PO had the idle raised to reduce the noise. I think everyone who has a
perceptible backlash noise say it goes away around 1,000 RPM.So the next bit of information will come after my transmission has been
re-installed (still trying get that scheduled, likely not till after the
holidays now) and after Alan has his RV20 checked out by Walter.BTW, it does appear I had a defective damper plate. The springs are only
slightly loose, but the local technician told me they should be under
tension I should not be able to move them at all. So maybe I’ll see a
change with the new plate.Latest info at: http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewVelvetDriveFailure.html
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:50 AM, SilverHeels wrote:
Quote:John (or anyone else),Let us know if you derive any useful “gear backlash” conclusions from our
responses to your engine / drive train info request.Thanks,
Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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John,
If I were a betting man ( and I’m not ), I would bet the loose springs on your
damper plate is found guilty.Joe,
________________________________
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John,
Interesting read. I don’t remember hearing any backlash with my old w60
installation. I operated it for over 20 years, but the engine was so noisy
that I may not have noticed. I repowerd about 4 years ago with a 75hp
yanmar (4jh3te), an engine similar to yours. I’m pretty sure I had the same
damper plate as your origninal. At that time I rebuilt the velvet-drive and
replace the v-drive. Both the old RV-20 and the new RV-26 make a racket
when in gear. With the cabin sole hatches in place its not that bad, but
the V-drive makes more noise than the engine until I get it up to speed. At
about 6kts, the engine is very quiet and smooth. At idle in gear, there may
be some noise from the v-drive. I think the gears rattle around in the
V-drive, but its not that bad. I almost never run the engine that slow in
gear. I don’t see the point unless I’m waiting for a bridge and need to
compensate for a light wind or current. This is pretty rare for me. I
never shift gears without pausing in neutral and letting the engine idle.About once every couple of weeks I run my boat hard, full throttle for about
20 minutes. This is SOP for this engine. This kicks up quite a stern wave
and makes the boat squat. It will run almost halfway up the transom. Even
with this kind of abuse, I’ve had no issues with the v-drive, transmission,
or damper plate in spite of this abuse. I don’t motor all that much
however, maybe 150 hrs each year.Rich
Quote:
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I wonder if it has anything to do with the type of lubricant you use. I put
SAE-30 in the gearbox and addes some kind of additive as recommeded in the
installation instructions. I change the gear lub each season, but omit the
additive.Rich
Quote:
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Thanks for the input Rich.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Rich Carter wrote:
Quote:John,
Interesting read. I don’t remember hearing any backlash with my old w60
installation. I operated it for over 20 years, but the engine was so noisy
that I may not have noticed. I repowerd about 4 years ago with a 75hp
yanmar (4jh3te), an engine similar to yours. I’m pretty sure I had the
same
damper plate as your origninal. At that time I rebuilt the velvet-drive and
replace the v-drive. Both the old RV-20 and the new RV-26 make a racket
when in gear. With the cabin sole hatches in place its not that bad, but
the V-drive makes more noise than the engine until I get it up to speed.
At
about 6kts, the engine is very quiet and smooth. At idle in gear, there
may
be some noise from the v-drive. I think the gears rattle around in the
V-drive, but its not that bad. I almost never run the engine that slow in
gear. I don’t see the point unless I’m waiting for a bridge and need to
compensate for a light wind or current. This is pretty rare for me. I
never shift gears without pausing in neutral and letting the engine idle.About once every couple of weeks I run my boat hard, full throttle for
about
20 minutes. This is SOP for this engine. This kicks up quite a stern wave
Tand makes the boat squat. It will run almost halfway up the transom.
Even
with this kind of abuse, I’ve had no issues with the v-drive, transmission,
or damper plate in spite of this abuse. I don’t motor all that much
however, maybe 150 hrs each year.Rich
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I use standard ATF transmission oil..so I doubt that viscosity is the solution.
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Having discussed this some time ago with the people at Walter, the backlash
we are hearing at low speed is from the power pulses from the engine being
absorbed through the gearset. Walter says it’s expected, it’s noisy, and it
doesn’t hurt the v-drive. The reason it goes away at higher rpms is because
the power pulses smooth out.The transmission, especially the Velvet Drive is hydraulic and couldn’t care
less about power pulses. I’m not sure the failure is due to the damper
plate or the backlash. Upon being torn down, I’d want to know what,
exactly, failed.Having broken or weak springs on the damper don’t help the issue because the
pulses are not absorbed at higher than normal rpm. They are basically small
shock absorbers.I’ve had 80 wt oil in the v-drive. Makes it very quiet. Also wrong. 30 wt
oil works fine but the gear whine is quite audible. At very low rpms, it
sounds like it’s pumping marbles but that’s the backlash I expect. I try
not to run it long at those speeds.The transmission currently has ATF in it but will run with, wait for it…
30 wt oil, according to the manual. I could, in theory, run the whole kit
and kaboodle with 30 wt. It’s tempting.No matter what you do, when you reach the point where the power is not
smoothed out by the damper, flywheel, and damper plate, you’ll hear the
v-drive banging around.Bob
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
Quote:I use standard ATF transmission oil..so I doubt that viscosity is the
solution.________________________________
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Here is the VD manual. I think we all have model 71c, no reduction.
http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/bw_sch_fs.htmlThe VD shifts by hydraulic pressure, but power is transmitted directly through a gearset. There would be no damping of power pulses in the transmission unless the transmission clutches were slipping, which would be a bad thing.
Quent -
John, backlash is a measurement between gear teeth. If the backlash is excessive it means the gears are not mating each other at the proper area on the tooth face. This normally does not result in more noise in one direction or other but may when changing direction as there’s more play in the gears before they engage.
This is a good reference for how it is measured. http://www.clevelandgear.com/hg/backlash.htm
The Velvet Drive is a hydraulically operated gear, hydraulic pressure moves the clutch plates to engage the drive gear. Once the gear is engaged it is a solid coupling. Worn clutch plates, clogged pump passages among other things will result along with a myriad of other issues can prevent the gear from going into reverse.
The V-Drive is a noisy component and has nothing to do with forward/reverse. It transfers power output from the gear to the prop, regardless of direction.
The RV-26 is not a bolt in replacement for an RV-20. It has a different mounting profile that requires appropriate spacing.If you lost reverse it was a failure of the transmission, not the V-Drive.
Consider this, the entire forward thrust of the boat is being created by the spinning prop. This is transferred forward up the shaft, through the gearing into the bearings in the V-drive and into the mounts that hold the V-Drive in place, this is where the entire load moving the boat is finds its way to the fiberglass. As thrust loads increase it forces the gears closer together, compresses and twists the shaft, stresses the V-drive mounts.
The mounts are rigid, so any deformity of the shaft, unbalanced or bent prop will be transmitted to the hull. The V-drive essentially becomes a thrust bearing. A true thrust bearing has flexible mounts.You can search for the reason of failure but your funds would be better spent on insuring all engine and drive train components are properly installed, aligned, lubricated and cooled.
Damper plates should be replaced anytime the gear is off, and Yanmar does update and improve parts continuously.I watch owners (myself included) sometimes try to diagnose and correct issues, thinking there’s going to be a ‘single issue’. Often it is a combination of things that occurred that made us aware there is a problem. Methodical, effective troubleshooting is often seen as expensive but more often than not fixes the problem.
I wish you the best in isolating this issue on your own. Working in a yard and being a boat owner I see both sides. I know mechanics are expensive but getting it all right can be worth it. Even better, getting a yard that says if it isn’t, bring it back and we’ll make it right is even better. Where I work that is our policy.
Chuck
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Latest on my transmission problems:
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewVelvetDriveFailure.htmlThe re-built transmission was re-installed today and the gear backlash noise
is virtually gone in forward gear at idle. There still is some noise in
reverse at idle, but nothing like the noise before. Since the noise was
there from day one of the re-power and replacing the defective damper plate
eliminated the noise, I can only assume the original damper plate was DOA
from Mack Boring. Whether that caused the transmission failure is
conjecture, but it would appear the likely culprit.Waiting to hear what Mack Boring has to say. Of course they have been
deafening in their silence up until now, so I’m not holding my breath.I’ll do more investigation on the noise in reverse before I start on
another cruise, but I feel comfortable enough to head back to the Chesapeake
Bay in the spring.On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Chuck Ruble wrote:
John, backlash is a measurement between gear teeth. If the backlash is
excessive it means the gears are not mating each other at the proper area on
the tooth face. This normally does not result in more noise in one
direction or other but may when changing direction as there’s more play in
the gears before they engage.This is a good reference for how it is measured.
http://www.clevelandgear.com/hg/backlash.htmThe Velvet Drive is a hydraulically operated gear, hydraulic pressure moves
the clutch plates to engage the drive gear. Once the gear is engaged it is
a solid coupling. Worn clutch plates, clogged pump passages among other
things will result along with a myriad of other issues can prevent the gear
from going into reverse.The V-Drive is a noisy component and has nothing to do with
forward/reverse. It transfers power output from the gear to the prop,
regardless of direction.
The RV-26 is not a bolt in replacement for an RV-20. It has a different
mounting profile that requires appropriate spacing.If you lost reverse it was a failure of the transmission, not the V-Drive.
Consider this, the entire forward thrust of the boat is being created by
the spinning prop. This is transferred forward up the shaft, through the
gearing into the bearings in the V-drive and into the mounts that hold the
V-Drive in place, this is where the entire load moving the boat is finds its
way to the fiberglass. As thrust loads increase it forces the gears closer
together, compresses and twists the shaft, stresses the V-drive mounts.
The mounts are rigid, so any deformity of the shaft, unbalanced or bent
prop will be transmitted to the hull. The V-drive essentially becomes a
thrust bearing. A true thrust bearing has flexible mounts.You can search for the reason of failure but your funds would be better
spent on insuring all engine and drive train components are properly
installed, aligned, lubricated and cooled.
Damper plates should be replaced anytime the gear is off, and Yanmar does
update and improve parts continuously.I watch owners (myself included) sometimes try to diagnose and correct
issues, thinking there’s going to be a ‘single issue’. Often it is a
combination of things that occurred that made us aware there is a problem.
Methodical, effective troubleshooting is often seen as expensive but more
often than not fixes the problem.I wish you the best in isolating this issue on your own. Working in a yard
and being a boat owner I see both sides. I know mechanics are expensive but
getting it all right can be worth it. Even better, getting a yard that says
if it isn’t, bring it back and we’ll make it right is even better. Where I
work that is our policy.Chuck
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Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
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John, this is great news. In reverse remember that the shaft is now ‘pulling’ at the V-Drive so it is very possible it may sound different. I’ve never paid that much attention to the sound the thing makes other than noting that it’s a noisy contraption. I doubt I’ll buy another boat anytime soon. If I do it won’t have a remote mounted V-Drive. The complexity and aggravation it add isn’t really worth the space it saves. This is especially noticeable when you have to change out an alternator belt on a hot engine.
Chuck
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Alan,
Do you still have the old damper plate? According to the people I’ve been
talking to, all of the springs should be under tension. If you can move
them with your fingers then the damper plate is defective. It appears the
noise coming from the V-Drive is the symptom of the problem not the source.
I agree getting at the plate is difficult, generally a two-person job. I
think Chuck’s advice to change the damper plate any time you remove the
transmission is valid. If the transmission is out, replacing the plate is
pretty straight forward. Compared to other engine parts, the cost of the
plate is minimal.On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Alan wrote:
Quote:John,
I wish I knew whether the damper plate I replaced is faulty or the
V-Drive is at fault and whether it really IS OK as Walter’s says…..
Changing out that damper plate is not that easy……
Alan— On Wed, 1/5/11, Chuck Ruble wrote:
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When I removed the old damper plate, 2 of the springs were lying at the bottom of the bell housing and the others were about to fall out. I replaced it with a genuine Westerbeke part.
So I guess this is what it sounds like with a tight damper plate.
I am sure it didn’t sound like this with all new parts back in 1981!— On Wed, 1/5/11, John Stevenson wrote:
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