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Start of attached email. Subject: Have a leaking rudder when the boat is either motoring or sailing
There seems to be a couple of issues.Perhaps I need new packing? Also,there is a wood block with screws mounting it and the holes have worn larger and there play that could be causing the water leak? And do I need to add a new bearing or replace the current?And will the rudder drop into the water if I remove the top nuts or is it attached to the skeg in such a way that it won’t simply fall off?
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Joe,
The wooden block you reference – is that the support the rudder shaft
passes through just above the stuffing box (
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/PlasticBushing.JPG)? There should be a
plastic bushing that keeps the shaft from wobbling. As you can see in my
picture that bushing tends to ride up out of the hole in the support. It
just needs to be pushed down periodically. At least one owner used a hose
clamp on the shaft to hold the bushing in place.
With regard to the stuffing box, have you tried to tighten it? I had a
persistent leak from the stuffing box. Initially the leak was stopped by
tightening the stuffing box, but eventually I had to repack it. If you
don’t have anything installed in the aft lazarette that shouldn’t be a
difficult task. I have a Northern LIghts genset in the lazarette and I
have to hire a boatyard munchin for any and all service on the stuffing box.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s Blog <http://www.sailblogs.com/member/svsarah/>On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Skip MacElhannon via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:If I recall correctly, the bottom of the rudder post sits in a bearing at
the bottom of the skeg. You should be able to disassemble everything on
the top of the rudder and let it sit on the lower bearing. I’ll be out at
my boat later this evening and look at it a little more closely to confirm
how it’s set up.This does also assume the skeg or bottom bearing on your boat hasn’t come
loose and is ready to fall off.Skip
Quote:________________________________
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Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Have a leaking rudder when the boat is either motoring or sailing
Thanks John,.I was coming down to St. Augustine from Little River,SC and pulled into Murrels Inlet and had a munchin mechanic tighten the nut. He mentioned that the wood plywood the raymarine auto pilot is bolted to needs to be replaced because the screws had enlarged the holes and the shaft is wobbly.He also mentioned the stuffing should be repacked.He suggested I should have the boat hauled to do this because the rudder could fall out.
I have felt the assembly top to bottom but will not be able to really look at it until next week.I’m traveling to Little river to bring my car down.Will be here in ST Aug one month and then moving South.The mechanic tightened the nut but it didn’t stop the leak- I figure about 5 gallons per hour.The shaft starts at the top with the steering cables just below the squared top.Then the Raymarine piston asssembly is just below and bolted to plywood the is also screwed to the solid wood board- 2 by 10? The small plywood has been wallowed out.I could not feel a bearing but would this be where a plastic bearing would go?Coming out of the lower fiberglas there is the pipe- about 2-3 inches up from there is a nut and then a threaded nut I guess threaded into the lower.I could not feel a bearing at the wood but I’m sure I’ll see one when I dig out from the aft cockpit.So next week I’ll provide more info-It sounds like I can do this myself with some guidance. As long as I don’t lose the rudder.
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Joe,
As long as you have the right size wrench and access to the stuffing nut
it shouldn’t be too awful a job. 5 gallons an hour sounds like a lot to me,
almost like there was never enough packing in the gland to begin with or
the seams were never staggered. There should be at lest 3 if not 4 bands of
packing with all the seams separated. I’d take a guess and say it’s 3/8
rope, maybe someone here can tell you for sure. Before you remove the nut
have your packing rope all cut to size. Cut them as close to the
circumference as possible without making them too long, you’ll have to
stuff/pound them in around the shaft when your ready. Dig out the old rope
with whatever tool works and make sure you get them all. If you were
getting 5 gallons an hour before, expect a tad more than that when that
last piece comes out. Stuff in the first then stagger the seams by thirds,
be sure to leave enough room for a fair amount of thread on the nut. Bring
a good stiff wire brush to clean the threads off as much as you can, then
tighten till the water stops. I’d run the wheel back and forth numerous
times (at least time for a beer) then go back down and give the nut another
half turn if you can. Have fun.Ken
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Greg Long via maillist <
> wrote:Not sure if the 422 and 424 rudder assemblies are the same. But a friend
replaced the packing on the rudder shaft on his 422 while still in the
water. He said a couple quarts of water came in while he was replacing the
packing, but not too bad. Said he removed the quadrant from the shaft to
get easier access.Ours was leaking, but tightening up the packing gland stopped the
leaking. Will likely have to repack it next year or so, though.Greg Long
443.995.5551
But if not…
On Dec 11, 2014, at 3:59 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Joe,
If you decide to haul the boat you might consider Green Cove Springs
Marina (http://www.GCSmarina.com), a do-it-yourself boat yard for cruising
sailboats. It’s very unlikely you’d find better rates anywhere in the
region, and it’s a fun, friendly, helpful place to be. There’s even a full
machine shop here. Details at the website.The yard is very busy and crowded right now, dozens of boats getting
ready to head to the islands. If you decide this might be a useful place
for you to straighten out your rudder issues, I suggest you first call the
marina and ask if they can accommodate you within the parameters of your
timing. If so, and you decide to come, feel free to contact me for some
useful details regarding the trip upriver, arrival, etc. (You’d want to
catch an incoming tide up the St. Johns River.)Quote:Good luck,Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Quote:
Original Message
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By golly, Ken, you sound like you’ve done this before. 🙂
Excellent description. Taught me a couple of things I almost
knew.Tor
Quote:
Original Message
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The packing is 3/16ths inch. Splits should be 90 degrees, three rings. An
old scribe is a great removal tool as is an old cheap cork screw.Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Dec 12, 2014 7:30 AM, “Silverheels via maillist” <>
wrote:Quote:By golly, Ken, you sound like you’ve done this before. 🙂Excellent description. Taught me a couple of things I almost
knew.Tor
Quote:
Original Message
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My other guru! Thanks, Bob.
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You’re welcome as always, Tor. 🙂
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Dec 12, 2014 7:48 AM, “Tor via maillist” <> wrote:Quote:My other guru! Thanks, Bob.<.. snip>
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Hi Joe,
If you want to see photos and a step by step on how to follow the excellent procedure Ken gives go to this link.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box
This is for a prop shaft stuffing box but rudder post should be the same.
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If you are about to use the typical wrench available from marine stores,
just stop. They are worth less than their packaging.Ridgid makes a perfect wrench that is an offset stilson type that is sturdy
and costs about $30.Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Dec 12, 2014 10:35 AM, “Silverheels via maillist” <
> wrote:Quote:Skip,I have a dripless whatchmacallit on Silverheels’ prop shaft, but
I did re-pack the rudder post stuffing box some years ago. Part
of my early boat refit included a sturdy but removable plywood
partition just forward of the lazarette locker. On the rare
occasions that the rudder box needs a slight tightening, I can
open that up in a few minutes and gain very good access to the
rudder post, quadrant, etc. Not like the photos (and definitely
not shiny), but very good… for a boat.However, regarding the captain’s manicure…
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17http://www.silverheels.us <http://www.silverheels.us/>
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I have a very large pair of Craftsmen channel lock pliers, they fit almost
ANYTHING!…if you have the room.Ken
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Robert Fine via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:If you are about to use the typical wrench available from marine stores,
just stop. They are worth less than their packaging.Ridgid makes a perfect wrench that is an offset stilson type that is sturdy
and costs about $30.Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Dec 12, 2014 10:35 AM, “Silverheels via maillist” <
> wrote:Quote:Skip,I have a dripless whatchmacallit on Silverheels’ prop shaft, but
I did re-pack the rudder post stuffing box some years ago. Part
of my early boat refit included a sturdy but removable plywood
partition just forward of the lazarette locker. On the rare
occasions that the rudder box needs a slight tightening, I can
open that up in a few minutes and gain very good access to the
rudder post, quadrant, etc. Not like the photos (and definitely
not shiny), but very good… for a boat.However, regarding the captain’s manicure…
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17http://www.silverheels.us <http://www.silverheels.us/>
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Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Have a leaking rudder when the boat is either motoring or sailing
Thanks to all for this useful information- will tackle it next week and will probably have a few more questions.
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Live on, brother. We need you here.
It’s not necessary to crush the bronze, only to grip it, with love and understanding. Tightening a cleaned & greased packing nut this way once every few years will not harm the bronze or you.
😉
Silverheels, P-424 #17http://www.silverheels.us <http://www.silverheels.us/>
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It’s true Bob, vise grips in the hands of an amateur can be a screaming
offence. Channel locks, as I’m sure your aware are a different tool, yes
they have sharp teeth, but with care and some savy you can keep any damage
to a minimum. Bronze on deck is also not bronze in the bilge. JM(cheap)HO 🙂A man’s got to do what a man’s got to do when he can’t go out and afford a
new tool on every job. I got me a mother pipe wrench too and it too in the
wrong hands could reek massive havoc, or get the job done with minimal
surface damage. Tor is right, tenderness with the brute is needed.Ken
On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Live on, brother. We need you here.It’s not necessary to crush the bronze, only to grip it, with love and
understanding. Tightening a cleaned & greased packing nut this way once
every few years will not harm the bronze or you.😉
Silverheels, P-424 #17http://www.silverheels.us <http://www.silverheels.us/>
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You’re right, Ken and Tor, you can use all sorts of wrenches for all sorts
of purposes. If there’s one thing Navy Machinist’s Mate school taught me,
it was that the first time you use the wrong tool, you’ll be fixing stuff
you really didn’t want to be fixing.It’s true that with experience, toothed wrenches can be pressed into
service for these jobs but it’s inelegant. And it’s all about elegance.Bob
On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Ken Page via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:It’s true Bob, vise grips in the hands of an amateur can be a screaming
offence. Channel locks, as I’m sure your aware are a different tool, yes
they have sharp teeth, but with care and some savy you can keep any damage
to a minimum. Bronze on deck is also not bronze in the bilge. JM(cheap)HO
🙂A man’s got to do what a man’s got to do when he can’t go out and afford a
new tool on every job. I got me a mother pipe wrench too and it too in the
wrong hands could reek massive havoc, or get the job done with minimal
surface damage. Tor is right, tenderness with the brute is needed.Ken
On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Live on, brother. We need you here.It’s not necessary to crush the bronze, only to grip it, with love and
understanding. Tightening a cleaned & greased packing nut this way once
every few years will not harm the bronze or you.😉
Silverheels, P-424 #17http://www.silverheels.us <http://www.silverheels.us/>
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Had a similar problem when some water came from the stern end.
The cause of the problem was that the bush in the wooden beam (well shown in John’s pic) had seized. The PO had used a hose clamp to hold it in position. The seized bush rotated with the rudder shaft making the hole larger, and causing the rudder shaft to wobble – and thus the leak.
I made a new bush and then added a substantial plastic block to the beam. The rudder shaft ain’t going nowhere after this.
See some pics in the link below;
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/117161376876600674340/albums/5862318906250377281
Regards
Dennis
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Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Have a leaking rudder when the boat is either motoring or sa
So repaired rudder yesterday: 1.Had to remove batteries and wood frame in aft cockpit locker to get to the rudder assemblies. 2. Removed stuff box nuts and restuffed with new packing- 3/16 ” did not stop the leak -but 1/4 inch packing did the job. 3.There was no bushing at all at the wooden beam- just an empty metal housing! 4. Installed a pillow block bearing 1.5 inch with mounting holes 4 inches apart.Bolted it to the wooden beam which is 2 inches thick. 5.No play anywhere in the rudder shaft.Have owned the boat 9 years -leak must have slowly gotten worse until I noticed water inflow when motoring.Thanks all for the excellent advice-it sure made the job go quicker.One note – the 1.5 inch bearing would only slide onto the rudder shaft by sanding and filing the shaft and also enlarging the inside dia. of the bearing with a sanding cone in a drill.All is well – no play-auto pilot will be happy!!Thanks
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