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I’m looking at the Doris E’s toerail mounted stantchions:
https://www.pearson424.org/gallery/DELifelines/DSC01274?full=1And I’m seeing that the track on her toe rail is much shorter than what I’ I see on my boat. On my boat the track runs 1′ aft of the the lower aft main shroud and to within a few few inches of the mizzen shroud.
Seems like a pretty short track to me… and now I’m thinking about not moving the stanchions. Anyone want to tray and talk me back into it? 😉
Indecisive….
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http://www.DeepPlaya.com | Pearson 424 | Hull #152Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Patrick
If you look closely I think you’ll see that the track begins and ends about where you describe. It appears that a short section of track may have been cut out to mount one of the stanchions. Its hard to tell from the photos.Everything on a boat is a trade-off. The existing inboard stanchions work for me and look good. They have the disadvantage of being mounted on a balsa-core deck. This invites leaks and softening of the deck under the stanchion. They do keep the toe-rail clear of obstructions. This is probably only of interest when refinishing the toe-rail. The 424 side decks are wider than most boats and I have no trouble getting even my fat ass forward and aft. The only place I have a problem is beside the dodger. This is where the gate is and where most of the wear occurs on the stanchion bases. One of these days I’ll replace the gate stanchions. I’ll give careful consideration to mounting the pair on the rail, but I’d be reluctant to cut my track. I almost never move the gennoa car. It seems that I’m almost always either pointing hard on the wind or running. More often than not its with the headsail rolled up and the motor on. If I lived where there were constant trade-winds and I could cruise in a constant direction with the wind off the beam it might be worth the effort to move the car. I leave the car positioned properly for pointing. IMHO, the 424 is a dog running unless you put up some kind of chute. Miniscule improvements that can be made by adjusting the gennoa sheet car don’t seem worth the effort. Now if I changed headsails, I can see moving the car. I’m not sure the forward two feet of track are useful with my sail inventory. I’,
Replacing the gate stanchions is on the list of things that aren’t right but aren’t quite broken. I may get to doing something with them after I’ve had a chance to fix everything else on the list.
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Somehow lookout sent my mail message while I was still typing. To finish,
I’m sure there will be a lot of folks who counter and believe that moving the car makes all the difference in the world and wish their track were longer. When I was younger I used to run around the deck tweeking this and that, sure in the belief that whatever I was doing was making the boat go faster. I’ve still been known to tweek the winches and move the traveller, even adjust halliard and backstay tension if a boat looks to be gaining on me. Moving the car doesn’t seem to do enough to get me up on deck.Rich
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Hi!
Having read the previous thread on the toe rail mounted stanchions and your discussion Rich, I think that the best solution would be to move the stanchions outboard and the track to the deck for closer sheeting – a big job, no doubt, but it would give you close sheeting for small (yankee) headsails, and allow the big jib to have a better sheeting angle as well.
But I, too, like where mine are. They will need work in the next couple of years as the P.O. thought using sheet plastic as a backing plate a good idea. He was really proud of that.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Bob
Pearson used a soft rubber material to bed many of the deck fittings. This worked very well. I’ve lost many of mine over the years when fittings were removed for various reasons. I wish I could find the stuff. Its a softer rubber than the hard red sheets they sell in the hardware store. When used in combination with a good caulking it makes a long-lasting waterproof seal.If you drill holes in your deck for a rail, I suggest overdrilling and refilling with epoxy. You probably already have plans to do this.
Good luck with your project.
Regards
Rich
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Hi Rich,
That’s the only way to do holes in a cored anything!
I do know about the rubber stuff, and it does make a good seal, but a
strong backing plate is still de rigeur. The PO was so proud of his
job, I didn’t have the heart to tell him that 3/16″ plastic doesn’t
constitute a backing plate…Bob
On 10/7/09, <> wrote:
Quote:Bob
Pearson used a soft rubber material to bed many of the deck fittings. This
worked very well. I’ve lost many of mine over the years when fittings were
removed for various reasons. I wish I could find the stuff. Its a softer
rubber than the hard red sheets they sell in the hardware store. When used
in combination with a good caulking it makes a long-lasting waterproof seal.If you drill holes in your deck for a rail, I suggest overdrilling and
refilling with epoxy. You probably already have plans to do this.Good luck with your project.
Regards
Rich
Original Message
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Good timing on this thread.
When I first got the boat, I changes the gate stanchions, and I didn’t do
the over-drill/epoxy deal.Now, a couple years later I noticed one of the bases was a little ‘wonky’
and upon investigation the bedding compound is gone (dolphinite sucks!) and
a couple had in fact got the core wet.So… I’ve drilled a bigger hole, I let it dry a few days, and I think I
carved out the rot (with a allen wrench/drill), I’m going to inject a light
epoxy like git-rot or similar and then fill with West system 610.That sound about right?
Lastly, Tor do you use that rope caulk stuff (which I love) for something
like a stanchion bedding or should I stick with something more conventional
like 4200?On 10/7/09 8:27 AM, “Robert Fine” <> wrote:
Quote:Hi Rich,That’s the only way to do holes in a cored anything!
I do know about the rubber stuff, and it does make a good seal, but a
strong backing plate is still de rigeur. The PO was so proud of his
job, I didn’t have the heart to tell him that 3/16″ plastic doesn’t
constitute a backing plate…Bob
On 10/7/09, <> wrote:
Quote:Bob
Pearson used a soft rubber material to bed many of the deck fittings. This
worked very well. I’ve lost many of mine over the years when fittings were
removed for various reasons. I wish I could find the stuff. Its a softer
rubber than the hard red sheets they sell in the hardware store. When used
in combination with a good caulking it makes a long-lasting waterproof seal.If you drill holes in your deck for a rail, I suggest overdrilling and
refilling with epoxy. You probably already have plans to do this.Good luck with your project.
Regards
Rich
Original Message
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Dolphinite is terrific for things that don't move, like padeyes and rope clutches and so forth – also, with Dolphinite you need to countersink holes – that's actually the sealing area. Still, the epoxy core thing is best. The problem with Dolphinite and stanchions is that the stanchions provide enough leverage to wiggle the deck and compress the core. That invites leaks. Sabre Yachts seems to use Dophinite exclusively for bedding compounds – even after 20 years the part comes off and the seal is still good. It's all in the application and the secret is the countersink.
Bob
On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Aaron Lynch < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Good timing on this thread.When I first got the boat, I changes the gate stanchions, and I didn't do
the over-drill/epoxy deal.Now, a couple years later I noticed one of the bases was a little 'wonky'
and upon investigation the bedding compound is gone (dolphinite sucks!) and
a couple had in fact got the core wet.So… I've drilled a bigger hole, I let it dry a few days, and I think I
carved out the rot (with a allen wrench/drill), I'm going to inject a light
epoxy like git-rot or similar and then fill with West system 610.That sound about right?
Lastly, Tor do you use that rope caulk stuff (which I love) for something
like a stanchion bedding or should I stick with something more conventional
like 4200?On 10/7/09 8:27 AM, “Robert Fine” < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi Rich,That's the only way to do holes in a cored anything!
I do know about the rubber stuff, and it does make a good seal, but a
strong backing plate is still de rigeur. The PO was so proud of his
job, I didn't have the heart to tell him that 3/16″ plastic doesn't
constitute a backing plate…Bob
On 10/7/09, () < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob
Pearson used a soft rubber material to bed many of the deck fittings. This
worked very well. I've lost many of mine over the years when fittings were
removed for various reasons. I wish I could find the stuff. Its a softer
rubber than the hard red sheets they sell in the hardware store. When used
in combination with a good caulking it makes a long-lasting waterproof seal.If you drill holes in your deck for a rail, I suggest overdrilling and
refilling with epoxy. You probably already have plans to do this.Good luck with your project.
Regards
Rich
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Aaron
From what I’ve read and done, it is recommended to soak the damaged area with a mixture of boric acid and potable anti-freeze. Boric acid is used as a powered roach killer and can be found in many hardware stores. It kills the mold spores. I would suggest sealing the holes in the bottom deck skin and remove the top skin by cutting a hole with a circular saw under the stanchion base. You might get about a 1.5 inch hole. This will expose enough of the deck to get a digging tool in there and a vacuum cleaner to suck out the rot. Dig out as much rot as you can. You will likely need to dig out a few inches of rot. Then fill the exposed area with the mixture of boric acid and potable anti-freeze solution and let is sit overnight. Then vacuum it out with a wet-vac and let it dry. Then fill it with thickened epoxy. Cover the hole with duck tape and let it cure. Remove the duck tape and smooth out the surface. You’ll likely need to add a little more epoxy.Regards
Rich
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Aaron,
I’m just now catching up on emails after the boat show. Yes, I have used rope caulk for re-bedding stanchion bases. So far (after more than 2 years) I see no sign of leakage or deterioration on the many deck fittings I’ve bedded with the stuff, although the outer surface of the caulking does brittle from direct exposure to the sun.
I also over-drill, epoxy-fill, and final-drill all holes through the balsa core. I wish Pearson had done that, but I must say I’ve found very little evidence of leakage and/or core rot on my boat from the original installations.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Rich,
I’ve never heard of that. Pretty cool trick. OK, I understand the function of the boric acid, but what’s the anti-freeze for?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Rope-caulk, I wonder if that’s the same stuff I started using. We have a camper too. The camper uses a caulking compound around the roof and other fittings that needs to be renewed every few years. It never hardens. I can’t remember what its called, but its sold in the camper supply stores. I used the stuff on my chain plates a couple of years ago and so far its holding up better than anything else I’ve used. I’ll have to look at a tube and see if its the same stuff.
I’m not entirely sure what the anti-freeze is used for. I did a web-search for instructions on repairing deck rot and followed their recommendation. I think its just used to make a boric acid solution. You don’t want to inject more water into the deck. The stuff doesn’t dry however, so you can never really get the balsa dry again after dousing it with anti-freeze. The problem with water in your deck is that it freezes during the winter and expands. This can cause crazing on the deck. Replacing it with anti-freeze solves this problem, but then you can never get the core dry. Since the anti-freeze doesn’t expand during the winter and fungus won’t grow with it, maybe this is OK.
Rich
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Rich,
Rope caulk doesn’t come in a tube. It comes in a roll (in a box labeled Rope Caulk), from Ace, Home Depot, and probably most other hardware stores. The stuff is more like modeling clay, soft, pliable and dry to the touch, about 3/16″ thick on the 2″ wide roll and grooved into strands for easier application. You can also just pull off a wad of it, roll it into a ball in the palms of your hands, and then roll that out on a cutting board to make it a long strand as thick as you want. The man who originally turned me on to Rope Caulk, an very good professional boat repair guy, said he has seen it come back many years later in prefect condition on boat installations he did with it.
Regarding the anti-freeze, I wonder if acetone might not be a better liquid for dissolving the boric acid. It would carry the boric acid into the affected area, then evaporate completely taking much of the water with it. I’ve pored straight acetone into damp work areas like that as a drying agent, but never thought of adding boric acid.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor,
Somewhere back in this thread or a similar one, a few days ago Quent posted a link to an article on the subject of removing rot from wood. The author of that article said he found auto antifreeze (Glycol) to be as effective as boric acid in this application. I think he mixed them just get the most potent treatment.On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Rich,
Rope caulk doesn't come in a tube. It comes in a roll (in a box labeled Rope Caulk), from Ace, Home Depot, and probably most other hardware stores. The stuff is more like modeling clay, soft, pliable and dry to the touch, about 3/16″ thick on the 2″ wide roll and grooved into strands for easier application. You can also just pull off a wad of it, roll it into a ball in the palms of your hands, and then roll that out on a cutting board to make it a long strand as thick as you want. The man who originally turned me on to Rope Caulk, an very good professional boat repair guy, said he has seen it come back many years later in prefect condition on boat installations he did with it.
Regarding the anti-freeze, I wonder if acetone might not be a better liquid for dissolving the boric acid. It would carry the boric acid into the affected area, then evaporate completely taking much of the water with it. I've pored straight acetone into damp work areas like that as a drying agent, but never thought of adding boric acid.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Ah, the plot thickens. Having owned old wood boats in the past, I don’t think I’d seal up a deck area with a wet core, even if it is anti-freeze. I’d be more inclined to cut back to clean wood, refill or rebuild as necessary, and then close it up. Then it’s really fixed. But for a quick, temporary fix the acetone w/boric acid might be worth a shot. When I get home I’ll see if boric acid powder will actually dissolve in acetone. (Then again, acetone might alter the boric acid’s chemical properties, or vice versa. Nothing’s ever simple, is it?)
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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john stevenson wrote:Tor,
Somewhere back in this thread or a similar one, a few days ago Quent posted a link to an article on the subject of removing rot from wood. The author of that article said he found auto antifreeze (Glycol) to be as effective as boric acid in this application. I think he mixed them just get the most potent treatment.John-
The problem being that unless you chemically kill the rot, if you trap moisture under the epoxy or whatever seal you use, the rot will continue. I used antifreeze to kill rot attacking both a bulkhead and the cabin sole in a chronically wet spot near the nav station. If the absence of chronic rot smell is any indication, the stuff works well.
We also did the deck fitting fix, cutting holes in the top skin with a hole saw, and routing out soft balsa with a coat hanger wire. The area was not too extensive, and with the exception of weight bearing areas, we backfilled with canned “Great Foam” from Home Depot. Downside on Great Foam is that even fully cured, it indicates as wet to a moisture meter.
Don’t under estimate the problem of water traveling considerable distance within the balsa deck core. On Clairebuoyant, water entering near the mast dripped from screw holes in the overhead several feet away. Pearson did not fill the space created by seams in the balsa sheets. This creates channels for water to flow.
Quent -
Tor,
The author's point wasn't to treat rotted wood as the remedy. Rather his point is that you can never get all of the spores out of the wood, just by removing to rotted portion. The treatment is to kill the remaining spores in the still good wood before sealing it.On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Ah, the plot thickens. Having owned old wood boats in the past, I don't think I'd seal up a deck area with a wet core, even if it is anti-freeze. I'd be more inclined to cut back to clean wood, refill or rebuild as necessary, and then close it up. Then it's really fixed. But for a quick, temporary fix the acetone w/boric acid might be worth a shot. When I get home I'll see if boric acid powder will actually dissolve in acetone. (Then again, acetone might alter the boric acid's chemical properties, or vice versa. Nothing's ever simple, is it?)Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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John,
I agree removing all the rotted wood (plus a little good wood beyond it for good measure) may or may not remove all the rot spores, depending on the situation. That’s why I like the idea of treating the area with some kind of biocide, like boric acid. I just don’t care for leaving things wet in there. I tend to use epoxy in these kinds of repairs and that’s not going to adhere to a wet surface.
Or am I missing something in this equation?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor:
I agree, I am not sure ethylene glycol would be my first choice to dry out the wood. However, I would also be a little hesitant to use acetone, since it is a pretty good fiberglass resin solvent. If I were to try something, I would go with de-natured alcohol (95% ethanol/5% methanol) or rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol. Both should be pretty good at adsorbing any water present and they will also kill any mold or fungus present, so I would not bother adding any boric acid.
They are very flammable though, so not a job I would do while smoking, unless you happen to be looking for an insurance payout!!!
PaulPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Tor
I feel the same way about leaving the repaired area wet with anti-freeze. Once you soak the area with the stuff, there’s no way to get the surface completely dry. Its what seems to be recommended however. Here’s an interesting article from wooden boat.http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Workshop/rotstopper/rotcure.html
I have a toe-nail that suffers from a fungus infection. There’s an oral medication that will cure it but may damage my liver. I’ve decided that my liver is more important than my toe-nail. After reading the article above, I’m considering treating it with anti-freeze.
Rich
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From my notes:
“The balsa adjacent to the rot was also moist. I left the deck core exposed in the hope that any remaining moisture
would dry. There isn’t any way that I can think of to suck the water out. To make sure that rot doesn’t continue after
the repair, I sprayed a mixture of boric acid and potable anti-freeze into the exposed deck. Boric acid is a natural
anti-fungal found in any hardware store. After letting the solution sit for about a week, I swabbed out the exposed
deck with denatured alcohol and dried it as best I could with a heat-gun.”I was cautious with the heat gun. As I recall, I kept a fire-extinguisher handy. I have no way to be sure the process cleaned the surface well enough for the epoxy to stick to the surface but its the best I could come up with. I don’t know if the boric acid will dissolve in alcohol. It didn’t dissolve very well in the anti-freeze. If I were to do it again I might go with standard automotive anti-freeze and skip the boric acid.
Rich.
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Thanks, Paul, those are good points (although it’s hard to imagine acetone dissolving fully cured resin).
Not to worry, I don’t smoke tobacco, and never while working.🙂
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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