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Dan,
The mizzen mast rests on a shoe screwed into the cockpit sole. It will
lift off the shoe once the rigging and any electrical wires are
disconnected.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Wed, May 15, 2013 at 10:19 AM, kalinowski wrote:
I’m planning to pull the sticks for refinishing. The boat’s still on
O’ahu and I’m back on the mainland and can’t visualize how the mizzen is
fixed to the cockpit floor. Any guidance/advice out there so I can prepare
before my trip back? MahaloDan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu_______________________________________________
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It isn’t. It goes through the mizzen partners in the cockpit floor and is
secured to the hull below.
Original Message
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Mizzen is deck stepped because fuel tank is right below. Main is keel
stepped through partners.Bob
I’m not being terse. This is from my mobile.
On May 15, 2013 11:00 AM, “Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication” wrote:Quote:It isn’t. It goes through the mizzen partners in the cockpit floor and is
secured to the hull below.
Original Message
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Not on mine.
Original Message
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On the starboard side.
Original Message
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This is really interesting, Thatcher, because I’ve been on over a dozen
424s and the layout has been identical for that stuff – all fuel tanks
under the cockpit sole, mizzens deck stepped. The keel stepped mizzen
seems like an extravagance in boat building. Did you have a special
layout? Like Rich Carter’s? I wonder if the previous owner had that done
for long range cruising and because replacing the tank is such a pain in
the patootie. It’s much easier to get it out than put it in. Where are
your batteries? Also: what hull number do you have? I wonder if that was
one of the last built.Just out of curiosity, how much does your fuel tank hold?
Anyone else have a starboard fuel tank? Keel stepped mizzen?
Bob
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication wrote:Quote:On the starboard side.
Original Message
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This is a special layout. And just from a pure sailing theory point of view,
the pressure from the mizzen would need to be laterally displaced by the
keel to provide forward motion. Not sure the cockpit floor would convert the
lateral wind pressure into forward moment. But then, I studied physics.
Original Message
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I don’t remember if you purchased yours new or from a previous owner.
It’s a good modification, but something like adding suspenders to your
belt. Deck stepped masts of any sort have one serious downfall – namely if
the rigging is compromised, the mast can jump the foot and become a
hazard. It’s a good excuse to maintain your rigging. In your case, the
mast could survive a windward upper shroud parting probably if the winds
weren’t too great and the driver was quick on the helm. Ours might not and
take out a lot more than just the mast. That’s why your tank is where it
is, because it can’t be anywhere else.In our boats, there is a rather heavy athwart ships beam that transfers
both the vertical and horizontal loads to the hull. Because the boat is
essentially one box beam (in mechanical terms) whether the load is applied
to the top or the bottom of the beam is of no difference (ignoring the
torque that would tend to pitch the beam or wrack it). The mast foot in
the cockpit does transfer the load quite nicely as a deck stepped main
would also do. From a purely observational view, the boat does quite
handily with mizzen and jib. It will sail with just the mizzen but not
terribly well because it is so far from the center of lateral resistance.I studied physics, too, but have confirmed the deck stepped mizzen
experimentally. 🙂Bob
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication wrote:Quote:This is a special layout. And just from a pure sailing theory point of
view,
the pressure from the mizzen would need to be laterally displaced by the
keel to provide forward motion. Not sure the cockpit floor would convert
the
lateral wind pressure into forward moment. But then, I studied physics.
Original Message
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Well some of the force might be lost if not stepped into the keel. It is
after all the keel and not the hull that provides the displacement of
motion. In any event, I’m sorry to learn others are not similarly equipped.
Original Message
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For force to be lost, the mast has to move in relation to the hull or the
hull has to deform to absorb it. Since it doesn’t, all force transmitted
through the mast is transmitted to the boat as a whole regardless of
mounting point.Anyway, it seems like a good arrangement, and if you have the same 80
gallons of fuel, even better. It gives you a large storage area under the
cockpit. And you have the potential, I guess, of putting another tank to
port if that’s what’s needed.Very interesting. Thanks for your time describing this, Thatcher!
Bob
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication wrote:Quote:Well some of the force might be lost if not stepped into the keel. It is
after all the keel and not the hull that provides the displacement of
motion. In any event, I’m sorry to learn others are not similarly equipped.
Original Message
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Not on my boat… it sits on a shoe on the cockpit floor.
Pete
On 5/15/2013 8:00 AM, Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication wrote:Quote:It isn’t. It goes through the mizzen partners in the cockpit floor and is
secured to the hull below.
Original Message
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Well there is a really hefty beam running laterally below the cockpit
floor where the mizzen stands and that beam is supported by large
vertical beams.Pete
On 5/15/2013 10:39 AM, Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication wrote:Quote:This is a special layout. And just from a pure sailing theory point of view,
the pressure from the mizzen would need to be laterally displaced by the
keel to provide forward motion. Not sure the cockpit floor would convert the
lateral wind pressure into forward moment. But then, I studied physics.
Original Message
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If the mizzen mast did not propel the boat, would it just sail off on
its own or perhaps just be left behind?On 5/15/2013 11:03 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
Quote:I don’t remember if you purchased yours new or from a previous owner.
It’s a good modification, but something like adding suspenders to your
belt. Deck stepped masts of any sort have one serious downfall – namely if
the rigging is compromised, the mast can jump the foot and become a
hazard. It’s a good excuse to maintain your rigging. In your case, the
mast could survive a windward upper shroud parting probably if the winds
weren’t too great and the driver was quick on the helm. Ours might not and
take out a lot more than just the mast. That’s why your tank is where it
is, because it can’t be anywhere else.In our boats, there is a rather heavy athwart ships beam that transfers
both the vertical and horizontal loads to the hull. Because the boat is
essentially one box beam (in mechanical terms) whether the load is applied
to the top or the bottom of the beam is of no difference (ignoring the
torque that would tend to pitch the beam or wrack it). The mast foot in
the cockpit does transfer the load quite nicely as a deck stepped main
would also do. From a purely observational view, the boat does quite
handily with mizzen and jib. It will sail with just the mizzen but not
terribly well because it is so far from the center of lateral resistance.I studied physics, too, but have confirmed the deck stepped mizzen
experimentally. 🙂Bob
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication wrote:Quote:This is a special layout. And just from a pure sailing theory point of
view,
the pressure from the mizzen would need to be laterally displaced by the
keel to provide forward motion. Not sure the cockpit floor would convert
the
lateral wind pressure into forward moment. But then, I studied physics.
Original Message
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That’s correct, Pete. As long as force isn’t being dissipated though hull
deformation, all force is transmitted to driving the hull one way or
another. It doesn’t matter where the attachment is – although it does
matter how it affects directional stability of the vessel. But you knew
that. The farther away from the center of lateral resistance, the more the
force tends to round the boat up. (Or, if it’s forward, force the boat off).On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Quote:If the mizzen mast did not propel the boat, would it just sail off on its
own or perhaps just be left behind?On 5/15/2013 11:03 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
Quote:I don’t remember if you purchased yours new or from a previous owner.
It’s a good modification, but something like adding suspenders to your
belt. Deck stepped masts of any sort have one serious downfall – namely
if
the rigging is compromised, the mast can jump the foot and become a
hazard. It’s a good excuse to maintain your rigging. In your case, the
mast could survive a windward upper shroud parting probably if the winds
weren’t too great and the driver was quick on the helm. Ours might not
and
take out a lot more than just the mast. That’s why your tank is where it
is, because it can’t be anywhere else.In our boats, there is a rather heavy athwart ships beam that transfers
both the vertical and horizontal loads to the hull. Because the boat is
essentially one box beam (in mechanical terms) whether the load is applied
to the top or the bottom of the beam is of no difference (ignoring the
torque that would tend to pitch the beam or wrack it). The mast foot in
the cockpit does transfer the load quite nicely as a deck stepped main
would also do. From a purely observational view, the boat does quite
handily with mizzen and jib. It will sail with just the mizzen but not
terribly well because it is so far from the center of lateral resistance.I studied physics, too, but have confirmed the deck stepped mizzen
experimentally. 🙂Bob
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Thatcher A. Stone – Confidential Attorney
Communication <thatcher@thatcher-stone-**legal.com>
wrote:This is a special layout. And just from a pure sailing theory point of
Quote:view,
the pressure from the mizzen would need to be laterally displaced by the
keel to provide forward motion. Not sure the cockpit floor would convert
the
lateral wind pressure into forward moment. But then, I studied physics.
Original Message
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