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Joe,
I don’t expect a new main will enable Silverheels to point much higher,
but I do expect it’ll give me more power to hold the point, more speed
to windward, as yours has done for you. It seems to me the tacking angle
is ultimately limited by the genoa’s sheeting angle, which is limited by
the upper main shrouds and spreaders.I looked into Hong Kong sails a few years ago and they seemed like an
excellent value. Has anyone bought Hong Kong sails?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us <http://www.silverheels.us/>
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Much as I try, I can only get to 95 degrees or so. I have new, full
battened main and mizzen, a 120% jib and a staysail. I fully feel that the
pointing or lack thereof is from the fact that the clew of the jib is so
high that I can’t get it even close to the shrouds. Great for spilling
watter, not so much for pointing.Bob
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Joe,I don’t expect a new main will enable Silverheels to point much higher,
but I do expect it’ll give me more power to hold the point, more speed
to windward, as yours has done for you. It seems to me the tacking angle
is ultimately limited by the genoa’s sheeting angle, which is limited by
the upper main shrouds and spreaders.I looked into Hong Kong sails a few years ago and they seemed like an
excellent value. Has anyone bought Hong Kong sails?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I have to figure on 120° too, Joe. I’d like to improve it some if I can.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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On the other hand, the 424 was never considered an upwind boat. Sure, you
can do it, and you can cut down a tree with a pocket knife, too. I love the
fact that when everyone else is headed for harbor because of winds, Pelican
is kicking up her heels! Off wind, of course.On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:I have to figure on 120° too, Joe. I’d like to improve it some if I can.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hey Bob,
Do you think your fully-battened mizzen sail increases the boat’s
weather helm compared to short-battened?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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That’s an interesting question. I suspect with fixed battens it would
because the shape of the sail is fixed except for twist. My battens float,
in that the aft ends are not fixed and therefore the sail’s draft is still
controlled by the outhaul. Also, I have a larger than normal roach. I
often use just it and the two head sails since I don’t gain much with the
main upwind in heavy air.Bob
I’m not being terse. This is from my mobile.
On May 3, 2012 9:17 AM, “Silverheels” wrote:Quote:Hey Bob,Do you think your fully-battened mizzen sail increases the boat’s
weather helm compared to short-battened?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hmmmm. The added power for jib & jigger sailing is a good thing. I
suppose you can reef or douse that more powerful mizzen when it’s too
much and increases the weather helm.Anyone else have a fully-battened mizzen or thoughts about it?
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Oh, and besides the radical roach, I have two reef points in the mizzen.
That’s to Tor’s point.Bob
I’m not being terse. This is from my mobile.
On May 3, 2012 9:53 AM, “Silverheels” wrote:Quote:Hmmmm. The added power for jib & jigger sailing is a good thing. I
suppose you can reef or douse that more powerful mizzen when it’s too
much and increases the weather helm.Anyone else have a fully-battened mizzen or thoughts about it?
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I have a sloop. The rig is identical to the tall ketch but lacks a mizzen. I race the boat in our club race each Thursday evening. I usually finish in the middle of the fleet. My handicap puts us in the slowest fleet. We race against boats with typical sizes of 26 to 28 feet. Our courses are always directly up/down with the two marks about a mile apart. Wind is typically light as the seabreeze fails close to sunset. This is a challenge since these are the worst points of sail for a boat like the 424. Tacking is a problem for us since the boat loses momentum and takes forever to regain speed. I have to plan to sail the rhumb-line. Knowing when to tack over is critical. The other boats on the course have no idea what its like to sail a big boat like the 424. They expect us to be able to tack over within our boatlength. This makes it a bit dangerous to be on port tack. We prefer to sail the right side of the course. This brings us to the mark on starboard tack.
I get about 35deg apparent in a moderate to light air (5..10kts true), 90deg true including leeway. When tacking, if I look over my shoulder at a mark, I can make it when the mark is directly abeam. This is my best VMG to windward. This is about what most cruising boats can do but nowhere near what something like a J24 can do. In some races they combine the J24 fleet with us. Unless it blows like stink, we’re dogmeat against a J24. I have a smattering of trophies, including first place in G-fleet at the club regatta last year; a silver plate that hangs on the wall in our hallway. Most trophies are glasses silk-screened with our club burgee. These are the most expensive glasses on the planet.
For the first few years I owned her, I couldn’t get the boat to point worth a damn. Maybe 110 degrees true was the best she could do. Sure, I could get the bow pointed over at 90 degrees but she’d crab, making the COG only about 110. Even replacing the sails with fancy mylar composite sails didn’t do much. A folding prop helped a lot, adding over 1/2 kt in light air and reducing the crab angle. The thing that helped most is a hydrolic backstay tensioner I added a few years ago. Now she points. A smooth and clean bottom finish helps too. I haul her about once a month to keep the bottom clean. All these things get me a couple of glasses each year.
If the wind picks up to the point where the boat heels, I can point a bit higher than 90. I almost never reef when coastal cruising. Roller furling is a waste of effort. The sail loses shape. I’ve tried luff-pads. They help, but they don’t really work. I’m more likely to ease out the full-batten main to depower the boat. If that doesn’t do enough I roll-up the headsail and sail under just main. If upwind, I power into the wind. I don’t even bother rigging the mainsail reef lines anymore. If I took her offshore again I would certainly rig them, but with a fullbatten main I can just ease the main out. This moves the center of effort forward and helps balance the boat better than reefing the headsail.
I could use new sails, on the list for next season. I think I could tack perhaps 3 degrees better with new sails, and maybe win another couple of glasses.
Rich
BlackSheep #47
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Rich,
When you say “I get about 35deg apparent in a moderate to light air
(5..10kts true), 90deg true including leeway,” I gather you’re saying
your tacking angle, the angle from starboard tack to port tack (or vice
versa) when beating, is 90°, i.e., 45° either side of the true wind. I
think that’s darn good for a 424 – especially if it includes leeway!Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Thanks for that clarification, Rich. I’d be THRILLED if Silverheels
would tack in 90°, let alone 80°. Well done! I’m gradulally talking
myself into a new main & mizzen. Probably would do me a world of good to
sail with a few racing captains, too. I’m sure I’d learn a lot. I have
twin (not even split) backstays, so a tensioner doesn’t seem practical.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I am fully battened mizzen. Could not tell if it is is a benefit. Not a good enough sailor yet. When we are hard on the wind I either drop the the mizzen altogether. Or move the sheet attachment point over to windward to enhance trim. Sometimes I will pick up a few tenths, sometimes no difference.
I have considered adding a traveler for the mizzen to keep the boom flatter.Eric Lorentzon
EFI Sales Development Manager
412.352.1941
Sent from my iPhoneOn May 3, 2012, at 9:53 AM, “Silverheels” wrote:
Quote:Hmmmm. The added power for jib & jigger sailing is a good thing. I
suppose you can reef or douse that more powerful mizzen when it’s too
much and increases the weather helm.Anyone else have a fully-battened mizzen or thoughts about it?
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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