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OK, so I was reading the new Cruising world, and there’s an article that give an electrical ‘guide’ stating that a ‘moderate’ load would be about 256 AH per day.
Then they later say that you need 1000 AH battery bank for that size load.
Ra currently has 2 West marine 4d AGMs, which according to their site are 200AH ea.
I find them to be somewhat lacking when on the hook. And One of the batteries is definitely dying (confirmed by a marine electrician whom I can’t afford to actually hire 🙂I’m slowly converting to LED Lighting, I don’t really think I use all that much power, however I do like cold beer and am a computer nerd.
In trying to decide if I should replace the west batteries I tried to compare them to others, for example trojan, however they give totally different specs for their batteries: 20hr rate AH =165
I can get the west 4d’s at a deep discount, but even still they are about $300ea And I’m wondering if I’ll be needing more power anyway. IS there a cheaper or better alternative? Can somebody explain to me how to compare the trojan to the west battery using different criteria?
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Aaron,
I think the AH rating in the WM catalogue is also the 20 hr rate used by Trojan, Rolls & others. I couldn't find the AGM batteries in the WM online catalogue, but the flooded 4Ds are rated at 120 ah, compared with the 165 ah rating for the Trojan 4D AGMs. The WM AGMs, which I think are made by Lifeline, might be somewhat larger than the Trojan AGM.
BTW I purchased WM AGMs back in 2000, shortly after I purchased Sarah. Every year for the next 3 years one of the AGMs failed (probably because my alternator had a standard automotive regulator). I guess I could have gone on for years having WM replace one battery each year under the warrantly, but I got tired of periodically living on one battery so I went back to flooded batteries. I went high-end before leaving for Europe and bought a pair of Rolls 4Ds. Under sail I use the generator and battery charger to re-charge the batteries. On the crossing I set the Xantrex charger to the cold battery setting to increase the charge rate. That worked fine, except when I got to Portugal and put Sarah in the Marina de Cascais I forgot about that charger setting. After 5 months on shore power I managed to kill those expensive Rolls. They were still under warranty, but the closest Rolls dealer was in the UK. It would have cost over $300 to ship new batteries to me, and of course they wanted to inspect the failed batteries. So I wrote off the Rolls batteries and purchased a local brand, Tudor. They've worked fine for nearly 3 years. I may decide to upgrade these batteries before heading to the Bahamas in the fall, but I don't think I'll go high-end again, and definitely not AGMs.John
On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Aaron Lynch < ([email][/email])> wrote:
OK, so I was reading the new Cruising world, and there’s an article that give an electrical ‘guide’ stating that a ‘moderate’ load would be about 256 AH per day.
Then they later say that you need 1000 AH battery bank for that size load.
Ra currently has 2 West marine 4d AGMs, which according to their site are 200AH ea.
I find them to be somewhat lacking when on the hook. And One of the batteries is definitely dying (confirmed by a marine electrician whom I can’t afford to actually hire 🙂I’m slowly converting to LED Lighting, I don’t really think I use all that much power, however I do like cold beer and am a computer nerd.
In trying to decide if I should replace the west batteries I tried to compare them to others, for example trojan, however they give totally different specs for their batteries: 20hr rate AH =165
I can get the west 4d’s at a deep discount, but even still they are about $300ea And I’m wondering if I’ll be needing more power anyway. IS there a cheaper or better alternative? Can somebody explain to me how to compare the trojan to the west battery using different criteria?
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Regards,
John Stevenson
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Thanks for the info, sounds like we have a similar setup, Ra has a Xantrex prosine 2.0 inverter/charger.
I haven’t really learned the electrical system yet, however the other day while poking around in the aft lazzarette, there was previously unknown loose wire pinched in the steering quadrant.
When I removed it from the steering cable, it arced.So I traced it, and it was connected directly to the house bank with no fuse or anything! I have no frikkin idea what it was for, but it was bouncing all over the fuel tank amongst all the steering gear etc, and like I said it was actually entangled in the steering cable.
SO I’ve decided maybe it’s time to sort it out before I hit a wave, lose steering, all electrical power and start a fire. I’m thinking that could be bad.
On 3/27/08 10:20 PM, John Stevenson wrote :
Aaron,
I think the AH rating in the WM catalogue is also the 20 hr rate used by Trojan, Rolls & others. I couldn’t find the AGM batteries in the WM online catalogue, but the flooded 4Ds are rated at 120 ah, compared with the 165 ah rating for the Trojan 4D AGMs. The WM AGMs, which I think are made by Lifeline, might be somewhat larger than the Trojan AGM.
BTW I purchased WM AGMs back in 2000, shortly after I purchased Sarah. Every year for the next 3 years one of the AGMs failed (probably because my alternator had a standard automotive regulator). I guess I could have gone on for years having WM replace one battery each year under the warrantly, but I got tired of periodically living on one battery so I went back to flooded batteries. I went high-end before leaving for Europe and bought a pair of Rolls 4Ds. Under sail I use the generator and battery charger to re-charge the batteries. On the crossing I set the Xantrex charger to the cold battery setting to increase the charge rate. That worked fine, except when I got to Portugal and put Sarah in the Marina de Cascais I forgot about that charger setting. After 5 months on shore power I managed to kill those expensive Rolls. They were still under warranty, but the closest Rolls dealer was in the UK. It would have cost over $300 to ship new batteries to me, and of course they wanted to inspect the failed batteries. So I wrote off the Rolls batteries and purchased a local brand, Tudor. They’ve worked fine for nearly 3 years. I may decide to upgrade these batteries before heading to the Bahamas in the fall, but I don’t think I’ll go high-end again, and definitely not AGMs.John
On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Aaron Lynch <> wrote:
OK, so I was reading the new Cruising world, and there’s an article that give an electrical ‘guide’ stating that a ‘moderate’ load would be about 256 AH per day.
Then they later say that you need 1000 AH battery bank for that size load.
Ra currently has 2 West marine 4d AGMs, which according to their site are 200AH ea.
I find them to be somewhat lacking when on the hook. And One of the batteries is definitely dying (confirmed by a marine electrician whom I can’t afford to actually hire 🙂I’m slowly converting to LED Lighting, I don’t really think I use all that much power, however I do like cold beer and am a computer nerd.
In trying to decide if I should replace the west batteries I tried to compare them to others, for example trojan, however they give totally different specs for their batteries: 20hr rate AH =165
I can get the west 4d’s at a deep discount, but even still they are about $300ea And I’m wondering if I’ll be needing more power anyway. IS there a cheaper or better alternative? Can somebody explain to me how to compare the trojan to the west battery using different criteria?
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There are a number of articles out there about batteries and such. For starters, 265AH a day to me is pretty darn high. I have refrigeration and the stereo going all day and all the rest of the junk powered up we think we need and I get a little antsy if I get even close to 150A. So, that being said and without going into a really long and involved explanation, the short story is:
Buy 6V golf cart batteries and NOT from WM. Find a Trojan dealer. Their all over. Look at the T105 or T125. I use the T125 – more AH’s and only a 1/2″ taller – almost the same price. I think I paid about 75 dollars each. SO, each 2 batteries (150$) would give you about 225 AH # 12 volts or there abouts. If your Stb sail locker is like mine, you can easily fit in 4 of those, giving you about 450AH worth of storage.
I tend to think of batteries as things that only last 4-5 years anyhow, depending on how badly you abuse them. There is a life to them depending on how many times you discharge them (use them) and how deeply you discharge them before charging (to around 50%). Do you have N Calders book’s? He does a good job expalining all of this.
It’s not rocket science
alan
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Alan:
Re:
“I use the T125 – more AH’s and only a 1/2”
taller – almost the same price. I think I paid about
75 dollars each. SO, each 2 batteries (150$) would
give you about 225 AH # 12 volts or there abouts. If
your Stb sail locker is like mine, you can easily fit
in 4 of those, giving you about 450AH worth of
storage.”Do you not mean 2 x T-125’s (6 volt) give you 125 AH at 12 volts and 250 AH
for 4, or do I have it backwards.Paul
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Alan
I have a policy of only discharging only one bank in a day. I keep a bank available for emergencies. It is rare that have to switch banks before I get a chance to recharge. If I need 100AH/day, I need two banks with that capacity.As I’m sure you know, it is bad for a battery to completely discharge. If you want your batteries to last a few years, you can’t discharge them completely. I switch battery banks when the voltmeter shows a 12.0 volt reading under a moderate load (approx 5A). This is about 50% discharged. It is also very difficult to bring a battery up to 100% charge. Even the smart regulators drop off after a timed period. If you get your batteries up to 90% charge, you’re doing well. This means that I’m only getting 40% of the rated capacity out of the battery bank. If the bank is rated at 220AH, I can only get about 88AH out of it. That’s close to what I use on a daily basis without refrigeration. The largest consumer is lighting, but the television, radio, and electronics take their share.
On a related subject, I went on a cruise last month with my daughter. It’s the first time I went on something that large. I really enjoyed it. I particularly enjoyed watching the crew maneuver the 950 foot ship in and out of the slip without tugs. We shared a dinner table with a guy who works for a light bulb company. He’s an engineer who is working on LED lighting. I had a chance to discuss what is going on in the industry and got a lot of good information. He said that one of the challenges he has is finding a way to dim the LED bulbs. They have a new replacement bulb that sets different light levels by quickly toggling the on/off switch. Another challenge is finding a way to make a point light source. He said that current LED technology is about on par with the efficiency of fluorescent lighting. This surprised me since I was always under the impression that LEDs were more efficient. I didn’t get a chance to discuss where the power was lost, but I suspect that
it is
in the current regulation circuitry. Bulb life is drastically shortened if too much current is consumed. In an installation such as a boat where the 12v source varies by so much, it is difficult to get an efficient regulation circuit. This is interesting, since I’ve been evaluating the value in replacing some of my fixtures with LED lamps. It may be more practical to replace at least the overhead lamps with fluorescent.—
Rich Carter
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John,
I have one flooded bank and one AGM bank. I’ve had no trouble with either for the past three years. I don’t run them together however. The AGM charge requirements are very similar to flooded batteries, so having a regulator set for between 13.8v and 14.4v shouldn’t hurt the AGM batteries. This is not the case with gel-cell batteries. I’m curious why your experience is different. If you figure it out, please let us know. I have a spare set of batteries sitting in my garage on a trickle charger.As I’ve learned by doing a web search, you can’t combine AGM with flooded batteries . The internal resistance of an AGM battery is much lower than a flooded battery, so it may overcharge when combined with flooded batteries during the charge cycle, and my over discharge during the discharge cycle.
—
Rich Carter
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Aaron
I have added a group 31 in a box screwed and glued to the forward end of the old battery box. This seemed like wasted space and made the wiring short jumps. I spoke with Mike yesterday and he said that he has a 31 mounted on the top and outboard of the old boxes. This only brings me to 500 AH so you’re half way there.
Linus
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Aaron,
How did you get that battery box into that space? I can’t get near it, I barely see down in there.On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Linus Sumocean < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:AaronI have added a group 31 in a box screwed and glued to the forward end of the old battery box. This seemed like wasted space and made the wiring short jumps. I spoke with Mike yesterday and he said that he has a 31 mounted on the top and outboard of the old boxes. This only brings me to 500 AH so you’re half way there.
Linus
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Aaron
I don’t know if you have a Batteries Plus store near you but, I was able to get 2 4Ds, GRP 27 and a GRP 31 AGM for just over $900. No shipping when I picked them at the store. I haven’t finished the install but they are made by DECCA and are the same battery that WM sells. When I was shopping this was the best deal that I could find.
Linus
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Sorry, meant that for Linus
On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Linus Sumocean < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:AaronI have added a group 31 in a box screwed and glued to the forward end of the old battery box. This seemed like wasted space and made the wiring short jumps. I spoke with Mike yesterday and he said that he has a 31 mounted on the top and outboard of the old boxes. This only brings me to 500 AH so you’re half way there.
Linus
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Aaron
I’ve been using cheap golf-cart batteries purchased at Sams Club. I get good service with them. If they fail, I just run down and buy another pair. Maybe they aren’t as good as Trojan or Rolls, but I don’t cry about them when they die. I think they run about $70 each. I get between 3 and 5 years on a pair. I’ve heard others in our group get similar life out of them.Right after I bought 4 replacement golf-cart batteries, I was lucky enough to find date expired but otherwise brand new AGM batteries at a Ham Radio flea market. They are about 100AH at 12v. I bought four of them for $30 ea. This is a rare find. Unfortunately, I can’t fit all four of them in my battery box, so I have two golf-cart batteries and two AGM batteries. I have the other two golf-cart batteries and AGM batteries as spares. As I said in my last message, mixing them is not ideal, but unless I take a sawsall to my battery box, I’m stuck with that configuration.
—
Rich Carter
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Guy's I have a suggestion on battery sources. Next time you are out and see the battery truck, the big Interstate unit painted up like a stock car. Follow him to his next stop and ask him if you can buy directly from him (his distributor). Here in Richmond, VA I found the location by chance and they do sell direct.
Chuck
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Aaron
I built the box with ears sticking out on either side for the bolts to go into the existing box. I reinforced the bottom with glass and coated the whole thing with epoxy. Then I smeared the back with 5200 and bolted it in. I have bruises on my chest and forehead from laying in the locker. But once it was in I jumped in the skiff and went for a ride and got myself back into the reason for the effort. Just messing about on boats like Tor says.
Linus
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There is an Interstate wholesaler who will sell to me directly also….
The Trojan guy is in Buffalo which is about 100 miles away…. he dropped off the batteries at a store he was at in Rochester on his way downstate.
Point is – most of these distributors are willing to work with ya…..
a
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Alan:
Thanks for the correction on the Trojan capacities. Getting 240 AH batteries
into the same space as the 165 Ah 4D’s is a pretty good deal.Concerning additional battery placement, my PO added shelves aft but
slightly elevated
of the original two battery boxes. I have one additional 4D on the lower
shelf now, with room for another on the upper shelf. Of course, neither of
these are proper battery boxes, just one more thing on the list of stuff to
fix.I am assuming the diesel genset in the port locker keeps thing level.
Paul
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With the weight and size of the 4D’s I dont’ know why
anyone wants to deal with em.
“am assuming the diesel genset in the port locker
keeps thing level”
I wish I had one…..
I am beginning to like Tors’ idea about putting the
batteries under the aft berth.
The whole balance thing plus, I would be able to fit a
genset IN the stb locker someday.I would add venting on the list of high priorites to
putting the batteries in that enclosed space.— Paul Lefebvre <> wrote:
Quote:Alan:Thanks for the correction on the Trojan capacities.
Getting 240 AH batteries
into the same space as the 165 Ah 4D’s is a pretty
good deal.Concerning additional battery placement, my PO added
shelves aft but
slightly elevated
of the original two battery boxes. I have one
additional 4D on the lower
shelf now, with room for another on the upper shelf.
Of course, neither of
these are proper battery boxes, just one more thing
on the list of stuff to
fix.I am assuming the diesel genset in the port locker
keeps thing level.Paul
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Alan,
I’m a little confused: Do you have the 2 trojans in the stock 4d battery box?On 3/28/08 7:51 AM, Paul Lefebvre wrote :
Quote:Alan:Thanks for the correction on the Trojan capacities. Getting 240 AH batteries
into the same space as the 165 Ah 4D’s is a pretty good deal.Concerning additional battery placement, my PO added shelves aft but
slightly elevated
of the original two battery boxes. I have one additional 4D on the lower
shelf now, with room for another on the upper shelf. Of course, neither of
these are proper battery boxes, just one more thing on the list of stuff to
fix.I am assuming the diesel genset in the port locker keeps thing level.
Paul
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Still confused 🙂
2 of the batteries will fit in the (stock) 4d sized box?
On 3/28/08 2:23 PM, alan P wrote :
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Hi Aaron,
Sorry about that. Also about the image – sometimes I can be a dufus. Here it is in all its glory.
I don’t like the location of the batteries, either, but I didn’t feel like changing them. My batteries are wired in parallel and they go to the Bank 1 of the switch. The other battery goes to Bank 2.
Below the boxes in the starboard lazarette is very little space as they are fiberglassed to the hull. Someone here has relocated all their batteries around the water heater. I forget who. They then removed the boxes for better storage. It’s not a bad idea at all – it lowers the weight in the hull and gives a whole bunch more stowage. Still, it’s a lot of work.
Good luck – if I can be of any help, let me know.
Bob
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Aaron
If you go to the 424 web site and look at the photo album /engine bay/ the view from where the engine usually is you can see the view from inside the tank cradle. I thought the same thing about just grinding the whole thing out and building it lower. It takes up the whole locker I guess so you can service the batteries without getting into the locker.
Linus
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Rich, where’d you put your batteries?
Is the locker the same size as the other side? (minus of course the bit of the hanging locker that protrudes.)
I think Tor may be a visionary, and pioneer in this field (and pulpits too of course)
Tor, what is the AH capacity you achieved cramming all them batteries under the bunk?
On 3/28/08 6:46 PM, Rich Carter wrote :
Quote:Alan
I pulled out my battery box years ago. Removal isn’t that big a deal. I cut the sides off the battery box with a carbide tipped circular saw. I cut all the way around as close the hull as I dared. I then took a pry-bar and sledge hammer to what was left. The locker is huge without the battery box in the way.Rich
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Re: Batteries’Morning Aaron,
Thanks for calling me a visionary. Your check is in the mail.
Each of the 5 West Marine Group 31 AGM’s I have is rated 105 AH @ 20 hours,
for a total of 525 AH. Attached is the original email I sent the group back
in November about my installation. By the way, I don’t think you’d want to
put wet batteries in that compartment, it being directly under your bed,
although I suppose you could seal and ventilate it.I never did like Pearson’s idea of putting the ship’s batteries in a cockpit
locker. If you open that locker lid at sea and Murphy chooses that moment to
lob a wave crest over the rail, you could instantly short out your whole
system. Even digging round in the locker during a heavy rain squall would be
courting trouble. At the very least, those battery boxes should be shielded
with some kind of cover, and in any case you’re still carrying that weight
farther from the center of gravity than is necessary, considering there are
alternative locations further forward and lower down.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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The Trojan 6v batteries are 10 3/8 long. The 4D’s are
21 inches, so they fit in the same space. The weight
of the of the batteries are 119 lbs vs 66. However,
the 4d’s have more AH…. Life is a compromise.
The nice thing is, you can find nooks and cranny’s to
put in a few more 6v’s and wire them up, they don’t
have to be next to each other. Wire size accordingly.
alan____________________________________________________________________________________
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Alan:
That 1/2″ difference in my battery boxes would prevent me from putting the
plywood tops on and screwing them down. With these tops I can stack a lot
of gear on top of and behind the batteries without worrying about anything
shorting across the terminals.Rodd
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For those who don’t read follow the SSCA discussion board, Evans Starzinger just posted the following excellent summary on battery choices. It pretty much confirms what Alan and others have been saying about 6 volt wet cells. Note he mentioned that “second brands”, instead of Trojans, may be more cost effective. I believe Rich has mentioned has has had good success with East Penn batteries.
Quote:
“For a cruising boat at anchor cycling their batteries (eg discharging them and then charging them), here’s the real world big picture on batteries as I understand it:
(1) Gels have roughly twice the price for half the cycles compared to wet cells. So, ¼ the ‘value’. There is not yet a lot of experience with AGM’s on cruising boats but the experience so far is somewhat worse than gels (according to my sources at West Marine, and in the cruising grapevine).
(2) 6vt batteries have roughly 33% more cycles than 12vt batteries and you can get about 20% more amp hours in the same footprint (but they are taller).
(3) When I was last shopping for batteries, Trojans were priced 35% higher than the second brands (like Interstate and LTH) but deliver (in our experience) very similar performance, quality and support.
(4) Usage/charging patterns will make more difference to lifespan than anything else. For example: (a) Discharging the batteries to 75% of capacity (25% left) will reduce life cycles by 30% compared to discharging only 50% (Trojan). (b) Battery life cycles are halved for every 10ºC of rise in average operating temperature above 68F, and battery capacity is halved in cold temperature (MasterVolt). (c) Consistently charging a gel battery .7vt above the recommended voltage will reduce battery life by 60% (East Penn). (d) Undersized jumpers/cables or dirty/under torqued connections can reduce capacity by any amount.
So, for best life span/value the clear recommendation is buy ‘second brand’ 6vt wet batteries, get a really big house bank, be sure to use the optimal charge/discharge regime (shallow discharges, full charges with equalization cycles), use big cables and clean the connections (and batteries) regularly, and keep operating temperature as close to optimal as possible. This is the hardest one to control but you can keep them away from engine heat but also warmed in cold weather.
However, if you are mostly on a dock with a shore charger plugged in, or have a lot of continuous charging from solar/wind, so that you don’t really cycle your batteries, then gels and AGM’s make more sense. These batteries can have a 20 year maintenance free life span if they are not cycled. BUT, this is a very rare situation for an active/anchored cruising boat.
Also if you are racing where the ORC regulations are in force then sealed batteries are ‘strongly recommended’ to avoid the possibility of an acid spill during a knock-down. I personally think this is a drastic overreaction to a minor risk, and I think the ability to accurately monitor wet cell condition (and so not set to sea with a potentially bad cell) with a hydrometer (which you can not do with sealed batteries) is valuable from a safety perspective and more than offsets the spill issue.”
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Although there is the potential for spills from wet cell batteries that doesn’t exist for sealed batteries, the sealed batteries in addition prevent the ingress of seawater. Seawater and batteries are a horrible mixture and potentially common, I’d think, in the event of a knockdown, I’d think.
In addition to dealing with the acid, you’d be dealing with a corrosive and deadly chlorine gas.
That’s all I have to say about that.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
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Hi Tor:
I agree that on any topic about boats, you will always find as many success
stories as failures when discussing something. However, with over 100,000
miles offshore sailing experience, including a 9,000 mile non-stop run from
Chile to Australia around the Horn and two circumnavigations, I wouldn’t
consider Evan’s comments to be hearsay or lacking in hands on experience.
(over 140 article and 3 books published books between them)http://www.bethandevans.com/voyaging_on_hawk.htm
He was directing his comments to those boats that are on the hook most of
the time. He did mention that there are cases where gels can give a 20 year
maintenance free life, so you experience with gels is in line with that.Paul
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Paul,
Sorry to say I don’t remember the details of my charging/discharging. I had a Heart Interface system in that boat that
was state-of-the-art at the time (1988-1994). It included a terrific monitoring system to help me avoid running the
batteries down too low, absolutely prevented me from overcharging them, and allowed me to see in an instant what was
going in from the various power sources and what was going out to the vessel’s appliances. The system was set up by an
electrical engineer buddy of mine who really did know his stuff.Just to illustrate my point that people who write about these things are not necessarily as expert as they appear, you
might check out a very long article I wrote for Cruising World about 20 years ago, in which I boldly explained a lot of
things that I only half understood. I even coined the phrase, “Integrated Energy System,” which I’ve seen in print from
time to time since then. The article is online at http://www.tor.cc/articles/energy.htm , and it pretty much sums up what I had
aboard Sparrow.Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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