Big Alternator pulley & bracket

[Tor]

I know we’ve discussed big alternators, etc, quite a bit in the past, but I’m wondering if anyone has put one
on a Yanmar 4JH4E specifically. I want to install a 120-amp alternator (+ smart regulator) driven by a single
1/2″ V-belt to charge my house bank. I’m assured the single 1/2″ belt is sufficient for this size alternator
(maximum) by a marine electronics pro I trust. Ideally, I’d like to leave the 85-amp, internally regulated
Yanmar alternator in place, ostensibly to charge the starter battery, but mainly to be there as a back-up for
when the big alternator quits working some day a thousand miles offshore.

I’ve just read the cautions and admonitions from Yanmar at http://www.yanmarhelp.com/i_pto.htm and I sort of
understand it. What I’m wondering is whether anyone has already researched/devised/installed a drive pulley
and bracket for a 2nd alternator on a Yanmar 4JH4E. Or, would it be easier to just remove the original
alternator and replace it with the bigger one and a crankshaft pulley for a 1/2″ belt? Has anyone done that on
this engine and figured out the mounting bracket alterations necessary?

Thanks,

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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[RichCarter]

I think my reply got lost in cyberspace, so here it is again.

I assume that you’ve seen my notes.
http://www.richardcarter.net/repower/AccessoryMount.html

Your engine and mine are very similar and probably would use the same bracket assembly. This is a pretty complicated way to add extra charge capacity. I went this route because I needed to add a refrigeration compressor. If you do something like this, contact me before you start cutting steel.

If I just needed extra charging capacity, I probably would have replaced my existing alternator with something bigger. These guys have a 100A alternator and 3-stage regulator package for $735. A 120A nickel-plated unit is $875. I don’t think you can beat that price. I would suggest using at least a 1/2″ belt. I’m pretty sure that my engine came with a 3/8″ belt on the Yanmar original alternator. You could replace the water pump and engine pulley with 1/2 pulleys. If you want a backup, you can take the original alternator and put it in your spare parts box. If you want an independent starter battery, you can put a solenoid switch on your alternator field line using a 6V relay. When your alternator comes up to speed, it closes the 6v relay. This in turn closes the solenoid switch and connects your starter battery to the charging circuit. You can do something similar with a battery combiner that uses diodes, but the solenoid approach is less expensive and doesn’t suff
er fro
m a voltage drop across the diodes.

—
Rich Carter

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[RichCarter]

I forgot to paste in the URL for Powerline.
http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/alternators/catalina.html

—
Rich Carter

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[Tor]

Hi Rich,

I should’ve known you’d be the guy who’d know about this stuff. I’ve actually learned a few things around here since I posted my query this morning. My new engine came with a 1/2″ belt, a ribbed V, so I’m probably good with that to drive up to a 120 to 130 amp alternator. I’m figuring on 120 amps. I’m not going to get into the second alternator approach. As you pointed out, it gets way to complicated for my needs. Instead, I’ll stow my 85-amp, internally regulated Yanmar alternator as a back-up and replace it with the bigger unit, hopefully one that fits the existing mounting footprint. A mechanic buddy of mine suggested I take the 85-amp alternator in to NAPA and tell them I want to buy an externally regulated 120-amp heavy duty automotive replacement – something made for a truck, ambulance, RV or other high-demand application – with the same footprint as my Yanmar alternator so it’ll bolt onto the bracket I’ve got. He seemed pretty sure they can match it up for me. I’ll find out tomorrow.

Also learned from my electronics wiz friend that I’d do best buying a Xantrex smart regulator for whatever new alternator I get. Xantrex’s is a simplified version of the Balmar 512. Both are programmable, the Xantrex having fewer options, but plenty for my simple needs.

I’ve got the Yanmar alternator out now. Tomorrow’s a new day.

Thanks for your much appreciated input.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[RichCarter]

Tor
You are right about matching the alternator, but some assembly is required. I brought my old W60 alternator into a local shop that specializes in alternator rebuilds. The guy was able to match the footprint to a commercial alternator that is used on industrial engines. I paid about $250 for the alternator. (I bring it back to him for inspection every other year) The unit puts out about 160A, depending on load, engine speed, and how hot the alternator is. There’s no way that a single belt would drive this alternator. It would eat the belts, so don’t be tempted to go too large. I think that a 120A might be pushing the limits of a single belt. The problem is that when the regulator goes to the 14.2v charge state with a weak bettery bank, it puts a shock load on the belts. I’ve had the pair of them break at this point before. Read my notes on belts.

My batteries can’t usually absorb 160A, but the extra capacity gives me a system that puts out serious power at a fast idle, about 80A at 1000 RPM. As I said, some assembly is required. As I remember, I had to drill out the mounting holes to make it fit, but that was the westerbeke engine. I bought a powerline regulator at that time, about 12 years ago. As I said in my last posting, they have a complete kit that includes the regulator, alternator, and harness that fits the Yanmar engine for between $700 and $800. That’s about 1/3 the cost that Balmar charges. I suggest taking a close look at the Powerline package. No modification should be needed. Even if you match the alternator at a local shop, you’ll have to buy a regulator. Their regulator is a good value at only $265. After your engine starts, it waits 90 seconds before turning on your alternator. This lets your oil pressure build. Then it cycles your alternator to 12.7V, 13.3V, 14.2V steps 20 seconds apart. I wish it ramped the setpoint rather than do it in steps, but I think they all behave this way.

Yanmar doesn’t use the tach output from the alternator. As I said earlier, you can use this to drive a 6v relay. Once the engine gets up to speed, the relay will close. This gives you a way to switch stuff on after the engine has started. This is a good way to drive a solenoid switch to connect your starter battery to the alternator. During the start cycle, the circuit is open. This means that a low house battery won’t interfere with your startiing process. I use the relay to switch in my refrigeration compressor. That way the compressor doesn’t load the engine during the start cycle. I don’t need the solenoid switch since I have dual alternators.

Regards
Rich

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[Tor]

Rich,

Well, I got most of that. I was told that you can set a top-end limit with the smart regulator so that even a 160-amp alternator will never put out more than, say, 120 amps (or whatever limit you set), and would then not be so hard on belts. On the surface this might seem like a waste of output potential, but in this configuration the alternator will never work hard enough to get more than lukewarm and will probably last forever. Or so I’m told. Personally, I know nothing.

Of course, the problem with putting on such a large alternator is that it can’t possibly fit my existing bracket, and it weighs a lot. I’m looking for the happiest compromise between charging power and ease of installation. There is added value to being able to bolt my original Yanmar alternator back on instantly if the need arises.

I will look at the Powerline package you recommend, and will also check out the Napa/Xantrex approach for a comparison. From what I’ve heard so far, it seems like the latter approach might cost half as much as Powerline. That’s a point to consider, but not necessarily the decisive factor. I realize there are some apples-to-oranges differences here.

Thanks again,

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[madsailor]

Hi Rich and Tor,

General rule of thumb: 100 amps is the limit for a single belt altenator.

Bob

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Quote:

Rich,

Well, I got most of that. I was told that you can set a top-end limit with the smart regulator so that even a 160-amp alternator will never put out more than, say, 120 amps (or whatever limit you set), and would then not be so hard on belts. On the surface this might seem like a waste of output potential, but in this configuration the alternator will never work hard enough to get more than lukewarm and will probably last forever. Or so I'm told. Personally, I know nothing.

Of course, the problem with putting on such a large alternator is that it can't possibly fit my existing bracket, and it weighs a lot. I'm looking for the happiest compromise between charging power and ease of installation. There is added value to being able to bolt my original Yanmar alternator back on instantly if the need arises.

I will look at the Powerline package you recommend, and will also check out the Napa/Xantrex approach for a comparison. From what I've heard so far, it seems like the latter approach might cost half as much as Powerline. That's a point to consider, but not necessarily the decisive factor. I realize there are some apples-to-oranges differences here.

Thanks again,

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[quent]

Hi Tor-
A couple things you might consider:
Regarding belts, size it for your peak load. When your battery bank is nearly discharged, if you have a big bank,or high tech batteries with a high acceptance rate, it will require a high horsepower draw from your engine. I have two 100 amp alternators driven by one Balmar MC 612 regulator, and the load when it produces 150+ amps really loads the engine, a W-58. If you make a single belt tight enough to not slip, the side loading on the bearings will be a factor.
My experiance with the Xantrex regulators is not good. I fried two of them in short order. The Balmar is holding up just fine.
We mounted one alternator in place of the standard, the other where the frig compressor used to be 180 degrees away, which balances the sideloading.
Be sure that the alternator is rated hot and sufficient for your needs. Many automotive alternators will not hold up under sustained heavy loads.
Quent
Clairebuoyant #132

[Tor]

Thanks, Bob. The single-belt alternator size limit seems to depend on who you’re talking to (to whom you’re talking?), and what belt you’re using. There’s a guy down the dock who owned a successful marine electronics company in Seattle for many years. His specialty was designing/installing electrical and electronics systems in large yachts, but he’s a sailor and knows all about our particular needs. He has disassembled, modified and reassembled countless Balmar’s and others. Knows every chip and wire in there. He said I could safely run up to a 130-amp alternator with my Yanmar’s single 1/2″ belt. I’m going for a 120-amp unit just to be one step on the safer side. And if it turns out he’s wrong, which would surprise me, I can easily tone down my 120-amp alternator with the smart regulator so that it never exceeds 100-amps output. It will then run cooler and last longer than a 100-amp unit because it won’t have to work as hard to produce the same amps.

There, see what happens when you become an expert in some arcane boat refit subject in a 24-hour time span?

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[RichCarter]

Bob
That’s probably a good rule. From my experience and research, there isn’t a hard limit. Large alternators will eat your belts. Its a matter of how frequent you are willing to replace them. I’ve got twin 1/2″ belts and they still wear. Belts come in various designs with different quality materials. You can either get a belt that wears better but might snap or one that wears more quickly but is less prone to breaking. I recommend the Dayco Top-Cog V-belt. I’ve had no belt failures since switching to that brand.

—
Rich Carter

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[Tor]

All good info, Quent. Thanks. It does get confusing when so many knowledgeable people with real, hands-on experience produce so many recommendations that re-prioritize, contradict, confound and otherwise differ so widely. I had a single-belt-driven Balmar 100- or 110-amp alternator powered by a small Yanmar engine on my last cruising boat and never had a belt so much as slip in 3,600 engine hours over 6 years and 30,000-odd miles. No broken belts, no crankshaft issues, no overloads or underloads, no battery failures – nothing like that. Maybe I was just lucky.

Your 200-amps worth of alternators is the biggest load I’ve heard of on a cruising boat in our size range. Enviable, to be sure, but perhaps that had something to do with frying the Xantrex regulators. Or maybe not. Electricity is still a supernatural phenomenon to me.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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[RLeeds]

I have their 120 Amp small frame alternator, a direct repladcement for the W58 alternator. I did go to a dual belt (1/2″) setup. I use their Next step 123 smart regulator and have had these for aver 10 years now without a hiccup. Batteries are 450amp flooded and 1 Optima AGM starting bat.

Rodd

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[Anonymous]

One hint for dual belts: you must use matched belts otherwise dual belts
are useless. You can tell they are matched if the little serial
numbers, that usually run across the belt, rather than in-line, on them
are sequential. Always specify “matched belts” when ordering. Rock
Auto is a great source for the top of the line Gates Green Line belts.

wrote:

Quote:

Bob
That’s probably a good rule. From my experience and research, there isn’t a hard limit. Large alternators will eat your belts. Its a matter of how frequent you are willing to replace them. I’ve got twin 1/2″ belts and they still wear. Belts come in various designs with different quality materials. You can either get a belt that wears better but might snap or one that wears more quickly but is less prone to breaking. I recommend the Dayco Top-Cog V-belt. I’ve had no belt failures since switching to that brand.

—
Rich Carter

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[Anonymous]

I put a 150 amp Balmar on my W58 with two belts. It works fine.

Norris Larson, Easy Reach, #203
— On Mon, 11/24/08, Silver Heels <> wrote:

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[Anonymous]

After reading all the comments – for what it is worth …

I installed a Powerline 120 amp/single belt on the old W60 (now replaced with a W64c) and used it for over 1200 engine hours over a 6 years without any problems and 4 more of lighter use. That included two years in the Caribbean. I never had a problem. We also installed a solar panel to help keep the batteries charged. Although we are conservative on electrical use in general, we did use our SSB extensively (big draw on transmit) and always several hours of reading each night. In the ten years I never logged a low battery condition. We found living aboard we used the engine more to heat water etc. The occasional move to a new harbor, etc. always was enough with the Powerline 120 to keep the batteries charged.

Another observation…in the two years we lived aboard in the Caribbean we were on several SSB safety nets, etc. where boaters shared their problems looked for help etc. One basic rule came to be our watch word – keep it as simple as possible. The boats with the more complex systems had far more down time for maintenance.

Anyone interested I would be more than willing to share more details of what we had on Jubilee for our Caribbean trip. By the way it was GREAT!

Cada Grove
Jubilee

Nov 24, 2008 02:13:13 PM, wrote:

I know we’ve discussed big alternators, etc, quite a bit in the past, but I’m wondering if anyone has put one
on a Yanmar 4JH4E specifically. I want to install a 120-amp alternator (+ smart regulator) driven by a single
1/2″ V-belt to charge my house bank. I’m assured the single 1/2″ belt is sufficient for this size alternator
(maximum) by a marine electronics pro I trust. Ideally, I’d like to leave the 85-amp, internally regulated
Yanmar alternator in place, ostensibly to charge the starter battery, but mainly to be there as a back-up for
when the big alternator quits working some day a thousand miles offshore.

I’ve just read the cautions and admonitions from Yanmar at http://www.yanmarhelp.com/i_pto.htm and I sort of
understand it. What I’m wondering is whether anyone has already researched/devised/installed a drive pulley
and bracket for a 2nd alternator on a Yanmar 4JH4E. Or, would it be easier to just remove the original
alternator and replace it with the bigger one and a crankshaft pulley for a 1/2″ belt? Has anyone done that on
this engine and figured out the mounting bracket alterations necessary?

Thanks,

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[Tor]

Cada,

That’s happy news about the Powerline. They’ve been around long enough that I’d be surprised to hear otherwise. I hope I fair as well with the Delco alternator I’m getting. Will let you all know in a few years.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[unabated]

You should all check out “The BatteryShack” in Marathon Fl. Delco High output alternators, 100a in my case. I’ve had their alternators on my last 2 boats. Simple, either external or internal 3 stage regulators at about 1/2 the price of anything else on the market.
alan

— On Sat, 11/29/08, Silver Heels <> wrote:

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[Tor]

Hi Alan,

You’re right about the quality of The Battery Shack’s alternators, but mistaken about their pricing. In the course of researching what I’m going to install, I called them yesterday and talked to the owner, Roger. Nice guy. Knows his stuff. He’s selling the same Delco CS-130 alternator, painted to inhibit rust, for $299 that I’m getting from my local guru for circa $200, similarly painted. That alternator comes standard with an internal regulator. Not a bad regulator, but limited compared to a programmable external “smart” regulator. Roger told me it would cost me an additional $300 to have his Delco with an external smart regulator. However, I had already found a Xantrex XAR 12 regulator online for $175 + $10 shipping.

So, The Battery Shack’s price for the 105-amp alternator, painted, w/external smart regulator = +/- $600 (plus shipping?)

My price via local electronics guru, including the alternator painted while disassembled, + external smart regulator from my own online source = around $400 (including shipping).

This is not to disparage The Battery Shack. On my own I had already decided to use the same excellent equipment they sell, and I certainly don’t begrudge the guy for making a living. I’m just pointing out that, for the budget-conscious cruiser, there are better prices available for the same parts.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[RichCarter]

West Marine sells the Balmar equivalent for $899.

Rich

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[madsailor]

Hi Tor,

Will your guru ship a setup? Also, where did you find the Xantrex?

Thanks,

Bob

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Hi Alan,

You're right about the quality of The Battery Shack's alternators, but mistaken about their pricing. In the course of researching what I'm going to install, I called them yesterday and talked to the owner, Roger. Nice guy. Knows his stuff. He's selling the same Delco CS-130 alternator, painted to inhibit rust, for $299 that I'm getting from my local guru for circa $200, similarly painted. That alternator comes standard with an internal regulator. Not a bad regulator, but limited compared to a programmable external “smart” regulator. Roger told me it would cost me an additional $300 to have his Delco with an external smart regulator. However, I had already found a Xantrex XAR 12 regulator online for $175 + $10 shipping.

So, The Battery Shack's price for the 105-amp alternator, painted, w/external smart regulator = +/- $600 (plus shipping?)

My price via local electronics guru, including the alternator painted while disassembled, + external smart regulator from my own online source = around $400 (including shipping).

This is not to disparage The Battery Shack. On my own I had already decided to use the same excellent equipment they sell, and I certainly don't begrudge the guy for making a living. I'm just pointing out that, for the budget-conscious cruiser, there are better prices available for the same parts.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8

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[Tor]

Hey Bob,

You’re welcome to ask the guru about shipping:

Electric Bob
B & H Electric
144-E Industrial Loop
Orange Park, FL 32073

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phone: (904) 269-7052
Email:

The Xantrex is advertised at http://www.manventureoutpost.com/marine/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6122 . However, just as I was about to order it there appeared a Sold Out icon on the page (scroll down to see it). I emailed the store and the manager said he’d check on the availability and get back to me. Hopefully, I’ll know tomorrow if/when I can get it from them. There are other online sources, of course, for a little more money. West Marine was one of the most expensive on the Internet.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[unabated]

I only needed to buy the alternator, as I already had 2 Xantrex external regulators (leftover spares from other boats).
a

— On Sun, 11/30/08, Robert Fine <> wrote:

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[madsailor]

Thanks Tor! I'll contact Electric Bob real soon! The sold out thing? It's because all the 424 owners are buying them!

Bob

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:10 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Quote:

Hey Bob,

You're welcome to ask the guru about shipping:

Electric Bob
B & H Electric
144-E Industrial Loop
Orange Park, FL 32073

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phone: (904) 269-7052
Email: ()

The Xantrex is advertised at http://www.manventureoutpost.com/marine/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6122 . However, just as I was about to order it there appeared a Sold Out icon on the page (scroll down to see it). I emailed the store and the manager said he'd check on the availability and get back to me. Hopefully, I'll know tomorrow if/when I can get it from them. There are other online sources, of course, for a little more money. West Marine was one of the most expensive on the Internet.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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[Tor]

I’m sure you got a good deal from The Battery Shack. They’re knowledgeable, helpful and competitive. I just got lucky with this local guru. Older guy, modest shop, not looking for the big bucks. Heard about him around the boat yard.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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