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Hello All-
Clairebuoyant, like many but not all P-424s has a bow assembly to hold anchors that is fabricated of stainless steel pipe with teak boards. It is attached to the hull on both sides thru-bolted to inside the anchor locker, and by one bolt to the stainless steel chainplate assembly that supports the headstay. This one bolt is through the transverse crosspiece that also supports the aft end of the teak boards.
Lately I’ve been monitoring a crack that developed in the starboard side pipe where it is welded to the above mentioned crosspiece. We carry our main anchor on the starboard roller and it takes some abuse.
Finally decided it was time to do something so we took the platform off and took it to our favorite welder, Metalcraft. here in Annapolis. Long story short, the cracks extended all the way around the stainless pipe, and several inches along it. That wasn’t the only problem. There was also extensive cracking in the roller support parts, and the transverse supports at the forward end of the teak boards, and around one bolt hole on the plate holding the starboard pipe to the hull.
The aft transverse crosspiece was intact although the weld to the pipe was cracked.
We are into about 8 hours of welding to repair the assembly, mostly to weld a pipe sleeve over the extensive cracking in the starboard pipe, and to do similar on the port side to maintain structural symmetry.
If anyone is interested, I could post some pictures when I get it back in a couple weeks.
Clairebuoyant spent most of her life in FL and points south. The anchor platform was a bit out of kilter when we got her, so it has seen some trauma, but I think this is mostly stress corrosion cracking from many years of routine loading, warm climate and salt water.
Quent
Clairebuoyant, #132 -
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I’d be interested in PICS of that, thanks. I carry 100lbs. up there,
between two anchors, with no bobstay.tks, BILL~~~ ~ (_~~ (_~ ~ ~ fair winds ~ ~ (_
Bill Tice, aboard s/v CHARISMA
St. AugustineIn a message dated 4/1/2012 3:04:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:Hello All-
Clairebuoyant, like many but not all P-424s has a bow assembly to hold
anchors that is fabricated of stainless steel pipe with teak boards. It is
attached to the hull on both sides thru-bolted to inside the anchor locker,
and by one bolt to the stainless steel chainplate assembly that supports the
headstay. This one bolt is through the transverse crosspiece that also
supports the aft end of the teak boards.
Lately I’ve been monitoring a crack that developed in the starboard side
pipe where it is welded to the above mentioned crosspiece. We carry our
main anchor on the starboard roller and it takes some abuse.
Finally decided it was time to do something so we took the platform off
and took it to our favorite welder, Metalcraft. here in Annapolis. Long
story short, the cracks extended all the way around the stainless pipe, and
several inches along it. That wasn’t the only problem. There was also
extensive cracking in the roller support parts, and the transverse supports at
the forward end of the teak boards, and around one bolt hole on the plate
holding the starboard pipe to the hull.
The aft transverse crosspiece was intact although the weld to the pipe was
cracked.
We are into about 8 hours of welding to repair the assembly, mostly to
weld a pipe sleeve over the extensive cracking in the starboard pipe, and to
do similar on the port side to maintain structural symmetry.
If anyone is interested, I could post some pictures when I get it back in
a couple weeks.
Clairebuoyant spent most of her life in FL and points south. The anchor
platform was a bit out of kilter when we got her, so it has seen some
trauma, but I think this is mostly stress corrosion cracking from many years of
routine loading, warm climate and salt water.
Quent
Clairebuoyant, #132
m2f
Read this topic online here:
https://www.pearson424.org/bb2forum/viewtopic.php?p=11022#11022
m2f
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Quent,
I don’t have that assembly on Silverheels, but thought I’d comment on
the “many years of routine loading” you mentioned. You probably know
this, but there shouldn’t be any substantial loading on that assembly
other than the moment you weigh anchor. As long as there’s always a
nylon line snubber taking up the shock from the tugging anchor chain,
and the snubber is led directly to a deck cleat, there won’t be any
loading on the anchor roller extension. Better yet, install a strong,
back-plated eye- or U-bolt in the stem a few inches above the waterline
and lead the snubber through that. It lowers the angle of pull,
effectively reducing the amount of scope needed.But the main thing is there doesn’t need to be any routine loading on
the anchor roller assembly.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hi Tor-
I agree with you. Can’t speak for the POs, but I never anchor without a snubber, even here in usually calm Chesapeake. However, even our rather modestly powered Lewmar 900 windlass, lifting chain and a 60# Manson, is enough to flex the platform a bit. From what I’ve read and experienced, it’s not always necessary to flex stainless to its limits to make it fail. A little stress for a long time, salt water, and a warm climate will do the job on stainless steel.
Q -
Thanks for that feedback, Quent. Since I’ve never had an anchor
platform, I’ve never had to deal with the issues.BTW, a little stress for a long time, salt water, and a warm climate
sometimes does the job on this sailor, too. Fortunately for me, rum is a
cheaper fix than welding.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I anchorn about 160 days a year in Florida, Bahamas and Caribbean. Use a snubber and run it thru the chock to your bow cleats. I have used both a double line and a single line and now use the single line only’ Jim Revery
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I rigged a single line snubber through the chock to the cleat and the boat sailed all over the anchorage. Running the snubber over the roller to the cleat the boat sits steady as a rock. On the hard for an overhaul so have not had time to try a double line snubber.
So why do you like the single line or do not like the double?
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Anchoring is like religion. At the risk of starting a religious argument…
The next time you use an equal length double-line snubber or double line pennant in a blow, visit the bow and watch the lines for a while. You’ll see the lines alternately take up and release their load as the boat swings in the wind. This will cause the lines to rub against their chock. They will also heat up. In an extreme situation, the inside of the line can get hot enough to melt.
You could use polyester line instead of nylon. This line has less stretch and therefore doesn’t rub against the chock as much when under alternating loads. It also doesn’t heat up as much. It transfers shock loads more directly to your deck hardware however. I had a chock fail once on me. It can happen.
I prefer nylon. It has some stretch and therefore doesn’t transmit shock loads to the deck hardware. On my mooring I use dual nylon pennants of unequal length. One takes all the load and the second is there for backup. In a real blow, I’ll run a third pennant of even longer length back to one of the main winches. I use either 7/8″ or 1″. When anchored, I use a single snubber, 5/8″ with a chain hook. This works for me.
Anchor rollers aren’t designed for high loads. They are fine for a couple of hundred pounds but not for a couple of thousand pounds. In particular, they don’t do well when the load is from the side. If your boat swings in a blow, loads will not be from directly ahead all the time. This isn’t good for your roller. Most have no way to prevent a snubber from slipping out of the roller. It just seems to be the wrong tool for the job.
I’m curious about your experience putting the line over the roller instead of the chock to stop the boat from swinging in a breeze. I can’t think of any reason it would make much difference. The roller is offcenter as is the chock. The difference is but a few inches. In any case, the boat doesn’t swing because the attachment point is offcenter. You can reduce the tendency to swing at anchor with an anchor riding sail. I can’t think of any other practical way to do this with but one anchor.
Regards
Rich
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Only made one trip in the boat before hauling to do the refit so my experience with anchoring the Pearson is a month at anchor in very calm weather in CT and a total of 10-12 nights on the trip from RI to FL.
First every boat that I have owned tended to sail around at anchor, some quite a lot. In a strong blow through total arc of 45 degrees or more.
On the Pearson I tried running the snubber through the chock to the cleat but the SS anti chaffing strip on the teak toe rail did not line up with the snubber and the movement was starting to saw into the wood. Did not like the idea of putting an anchoring load on the bow rollers but decided for short term it would be OK if I used a LOT of chain and a small, stretchy snubber that would not put a shock load on the roller. Also, looking at the angle of the snubber over the roller the vertical vector of the force down onto the roller would be fairly small, most of the load going into the horizontal vector and transferred to the cleat.
I found when I ran the snubber over the roller the boat did not sail at all. The bow pointed dead into the wind and did not move, even through a midnight thunderstorm with gusts over 35 kts. When I ran the snubber through the chocks, even in mild conditions I was sailing around through at least 30 degrees in 8-12 kt breeze.
Why the difference? Well as you point out, the chock is offset from the center-line only a few inches more than the roller but would that few inches matter? The roller is a few feet further forward so maybe that made the difference? Maybe the combination of the two?
I am thinking about doing like Tor and installing an eye low on the bow for the snubber. I have read other cruisers have done this and liked it but do note recall any comments about sailing or not.
So Tor, anything to report how the boat respond to this system as far as sailing at anchor?
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I don’t think Pearson put a rub strake at the bow. I know mine didn’t come with one. I cut some half-round SS stock and attached it to the outside of the toe-rail just below and forward of the chock. You’re right about the snubber cutting the toe rail. By the time I did this there was some damage by the mooring pennant. My guess is that a previous owner might have done something similar but may have not properly located the thing.
I have similar stock below the midship cleat. Pearson didn’t install these cleats either but most folks have added a cleat either as a car on the genny track or like me as a permanent fixture just forward of the track. I’m not sure its safe to tie-up to a dock without something better than a stanchion to tie to. If you wander around any marina, its surprising to see how many folks don’t have a midship cleat however.
I haven’t yet bothered to put a rub strake beneath the stern cleats.
For folks who haven’t bothered to add one of these, here’s a link. Its cheaper to buy your own stock and cut it to fit but this is convenient.
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10391|321176|757306&id=1280205One of my good friends got caught in New Bedford harbor last year when hurricane Irene hit the northeast. He stayed on a strong transient mooring with his wife. Both pieces of the dual pennant he was tied to chafed through. I’ll bet both pennant lines were the same length. This left the boat only tied with a spare dock line that he had rigged-up as a third pennant. By the time the storm passed, most of the third line was gone too. It had chafed where he looped the eye through the mooring ring; no thimble. I saw what was left of it, just a small piece of the inner core was holding his boat. They did OK but got struck by several other boats that broke free. His wife somehow broke her wrist however. I think she slipped on the wet deck trying to fend-off a passing boat. I carry a spare 1″ pennant with me when I cruise. Its got a proper thimble spliced with shackle and chafing gear; cheap insurance.
Attaching the snubber to a pad-eye at the bow might have some advantages. You’d have to make sure its pretty well backed. I’ll guess that you have to leave it attached and somehow drape it back over the bow and stow the lose end somehow. Otherwise you’d have to be a contortionist to hook the thing up when you want to use it.
Regards
Rich
BlackSheep #47
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To answer your last question first, Silverheels doesn’t sail at anchor
at all. If she did I suppose I’d use the mizzen as a riding sail, at
least in moderate conditions.OK, I think this is worth sharing because I’ve never seen anyone else
doing it quite this way and it’s pretty cool:Installing an eye- or u-bolt in the stem really is the way to go. By
lowering the point of the anchor rode’s “attachment point” to the boat –
down from the foredeck to the stem eye – you reduce the water “depth” as
it relates to anchor rode scope ratios, by about 6′! (Remember, rode
scope is based on “depth of water” – 5:1, 7:1 or whatever – but that
“depth” is always measured from the attachment point of the rode, not
from the waterline.) Of course, the stem eye has to be substantially
back-plated. In the first attached photo you can see how I did that
using a scrap piece of stainless steel plate that I bent and otherwise
forced into place and ultimately bedded with lots of 5200. The photo
view is from above, taken while I had the foredeck cut wide open for my
anchor locker project.The second attached photo shows the U-bolt at the stem of the boat.
However, I no longer shackle the snubber to the stem eye as in this
photo. I decided that could be dangerous if I ever had to “cut & run” in
an emergency. I wouldn’t be able to reach the snubber from the foredeck
without first cranking in some of the anchor chain. What I have now is
much better. I cleated one end of a line (end “A”) onto the starboard
foredeck cleat. I left a few feet extra at this end so the snubber would
be adjustable. Then I led the other end (end “B”) through an eye and a
small shackle alongside the bow roller frame (see 3rd attached photo,
which is cluttered right now with a mooring line), down to and through
the stem eye, then back up through the starboard hawse chock and back to
the starboard foredeck cleat. Once my anchor is set, I take snubber end
“B” off the cleat and back out of the hawse chock, lead it over the
anchor roller from the front, lead it back to the foredeck and secure it
to the anchor chain with a rolling hitch. Then I feed out more anchor
chain with the windlass. The chain carries the rolling hitch with it
over the anchor roller and down into the water. I keep feeding out chain
until the snubber takes up the strain of the anchor and the anchor chain
is hanging limp between the windlass and the rolling hitch. All the
pulling force of the anchor is then taken by the stem eye.When I write it out it sounds complicated. To do it really is simplicity
itself.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor,
I don’t think I understand your snubber rig. I’ve edited your 3rd pic with
labels to document my lack of understanding.
If I am correct the load on the snubber line would go through the stem
fitting to the eye on the anchor roller and then back to the starboard
cleat.
It would seem there are two very serious chafe points on the snubber line.1. At the stem fitting
2. The shackle eye on the anchor rollerI must be missing something.
John Stevenson
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