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I agree that Aluminum can be nasty, but HDPE will become brittle and crack, especially in the Tropics.
Teak requires varnishing to be bright, but some have left it to weather. At least it can be easily repaired if damaged.
I recommend staying with teak.Joe,
Half Moon #71— On Thu, 8/20/09, Robert Fine <> wrote:
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Lee,
I think I’ve seen some manufacturer-installed synthetic cap rails on boats, but I have no idea what the material was. Check out some of the powerboats at the shows. Also, I know Valiant Yachts puts on some kind of high-quality aluminum cap rail on their boats. You might get them to tell you where they get it. If I had to replace my cap rail – if it were totally trashed and worthless – that’s probably the way I’d go. But if the original teak rail on your boat is reasonably sound, why bother? If you don’t want to maintain it, paint it. That reduces maintenance to one day every few years.
For myself, I’ve opted for the grey look. The real, functional beauty of teak is its ability to withstand the elements in its natural state. So who am I to blow against the wind? When I finally got around to the exterior teak on Silver Heels, I stripped, thoroughly cleaned and sanded it (well, I paid a pretty girl in a bikini to do that, actually – see photo), and then saturated it with good quality teak oil. The teak, not the girl. It looked like a million bucks for a week or two, then turned grey. I’m comfortable with that look. It’s genuine, salty and just plain practical, especially when you’re cruising. Now, every 6 months I scrub the teak clean with soap & water plus some bleach, using a 3M-type scrub pad, NOT a brush! After rinsing and drying, I again feed it plenty of good oil. I did this on my last cruising during 6 years of almost non-stop voyaging. When it came time to sell the boat, I paid a guy to put on a few coats of varnish. The wood looked brand new, like it had just come from the factory. The periodic cleaning and oiling kept the wood healthy and happy all those years.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Er, ah, is she available for cruising? I need my teak done, too…
On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Lee,
I think I've seen some manufacturer-installed synthetic cap rails on boats, but I have no idea what the material was. Check out some of the powerboats at the shows. Also, I know Valiant Yachts puts on some kind of high-quality aluminum cap rail on their boats. You might get them to tell you where they get it. If I had to replace my cap rail – if it were totally trashed and worthless – that's probably the way I'd go. But if the original teak rail on your boat is reasonably sound, why bother? If you don't want to maintain it, paint it. That reduces maintenance to one day every few years.
For myself, I've opted for the grey look. The real, functional beauty of teak is its ability to withstand the elements in its natural state. So who am I to blow against the wind? When I finally got around to the exterior teak on Silver Heels, I stripped, thoroughly cleaned and sanded it (well, I paid a pretty girl in a bikini to do that, actually – see photo), and then saturated it with good quality teak oil. The teak, not the girl. It looked like a million bucks for a week or two, then turned grey. I'm comfortable with that look. It's genuine, salty and just plain practical, especially when you're cruising. Now, every 6 months I scrub the teak clean with soap & water plus some bleach, using a 3M-type scrub pad, NOT a brush! After rinsing and drying, I again feed it plenty of good oil. I did this on my last cruising during 6 years of almost non-stop voyaging. When it came time to sell the boat, I paid a guy to put on a few coats of varnish. The wood looked brand new, like it had just come from the factory. The periodic cleaning and oiling kept the wood healthy and happy all those years.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob,
Ah, Renee does dress up a deck, doesn’t she. I’ll check with her husband regarding her availability for cruising.
🙂
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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There was (is?) a P424 Sloop that has a stainless steel cap rail (see pics). Looks awesome in the pics. I imagine it was god awful expensive and would a real toe burner outside the cloudy Pacific NW.
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com<.. snip>
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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Hi Joe,
I've used HDPE to replace teak for nearly 20 years now. I will agree that it discolors (actually, it yellows) but have never had it crack, peel, chip, check, or deteriorate in any other way. Because of it's linear polymerization, it is so unaffected by anything we can throw at it, I suspect it would last longer than the fiberglass. That said, it is slippery and so I've used those step plates that powerboats have screwed to places to prevent slipping.
If you have a material that didn't stand up to sunlight then it wasn't HDPE.
Best regards,
Bob
On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Joseph Steiner < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I agree that Aluminum can be nasty, but HDPE will become brittle and crack, especially in the Tropics.
Teak requires varnishing to be bright, but some have left it to weather. At least it can be easily repaired if damaged.
I recommend staying with teak.
Joe,
Half Moon #71— On Thu, 8/20/09, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
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Interesting that you have had good results with HDPE. Perhaps my gasoline and water cans that I have stored on deck were not made from HDPE. I thought they were, and they lost a lot of their strength out in the sunlight.
A lot of 45 gal barrels have been made with HDPE, many tinted blue to absorb UV light, some black. Of course white absorbs UV too..but after 5 or so years, the polymer still shows signs of brittleness. I just have a hard time imagining HDPE in the cap rail holding up very long.
The yellowness you refer to is a sign of polymer degradation, so perhaps your cap rail was just not subjected to any hard impact. HDPE is also very difficult to paint, so yellowness would be hard to hide, if that was an issue.
Do you have any pictures of a 20 year old cap rail made from HDPE?kind regards,
Joe,— On Thu, 8/20/09, Robert Fine <> wrote:
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Here’s a post of a guy who used http://www.PlasTeak.com.
http://csysailboats.blogspot.com/2009/05/cap-rail-replacement.html-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com<.. snip>
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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Let’s review the scientific data. There is a lot of marketing dollars spent to promote products that don’t last long, but look nice, and is relatively inexpensive. If durability is not an issue..then go for it.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2004/fpl_2004_stark001.pdf
— On Thu, 8/20/09, Patrick Walters <> wrote:
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Heaven help your bare feet if you step on that pretty stainless steel on a hot, sunny day. It does look great, but I wouldn’t want it on my boat.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Alan,
Not sure if you’re joking, but she does do all kinds of cosmetic boat work on a freelance basis, and she does it well. You’d just have to get your boat to that boat yard in NE FL.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Joe,
That is an interesting paper, but I'm not sure what it really says in regard to the suitability of an HDPE product for a cap rail or decking. They found significant degradation after 3000h of weathering. That's less than 5 months. I'm sure none of us would be able to detect that degradation. Since virtually no material that we might use for a cap rail is impervious to UV and weathering, the important measurement is how the various materials compare. I guess the most impervious material would be that SS cap rail that Patrick showed us (that fellow must be a part owner of a nickel mine). We all know that teak ages less than most hardwoods, but still significantly. My teak cap rail has a number of cracks and a few pieces have broken off, and this boat has never been in the tropics. I know of several marinas and private homes in Florida that have HDPE decks that are 10 – 15 years old that look good to me.
So teak may be more durable than HDPE, but is the difference significant?
The one thing the paper tells me, if I were to use HDPE in an application that needed to stand up to weathering I better go with the injection molded process rather than extruded or planed.On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Joseph Steiner < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Let's review the scientific data. There is a lot of marketing dollars spent to promote products that don't last long, but look nice, and is relatively inexpensive. If durability is not an issue..then go for it.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2004/fpl_2004_stark001.pdf— On Thu, 8/20/09, Patrick Walters < ([email][/email])> wrote:
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John,
Decking and other applications that are straight and therefore extrudable would not be available in an injection molded form. The molds would be far too expensive compared to an extrusion die.
I suppose you could buy HDPE and try to cut it to conform to the curve of the hull. Or cut it and install in sections, much like teak wood. You could even sand it and get a rounded edge. The beauty of teak especially when treated with a fine varnish, or teak oil, is hard to beat. HDPE is very difficult to paint, requiring a heat treatment or muriatic acid wash to remove the lubricants that are present to facilitate extrusion or injection molding.
I have seen some heavily filled examples for decking and even flooring in a marine application. It works, but if subjected to a blow, it will crack…so will teak.
But I can repair teak easily and then varnish it easily and it’s as good as new. HDPE can be replaced too, a section at a time, and hopefully come close to color matching. Painting the whole thing is tricky, leaving streaks.
So….I suppose my main arguement boils down to the fact that I like the look of teak, can work with it easily, and I have had some bad experience with HDPE for outdoor applications in the Tropics where I sail.Joe,
— On Thu, 8/20/09, John Stevenson <> wrote:
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Joe,
Thanks for the explanation, makes sense.
It really comes down to aesthetic preferences. I think Teak, even when beautifully varnished, is one butt-ugly wood compared to a lot of other hardwoods. If I had my preference there would be no wood anywhere on Sarah's deck, just in the cabin and it wouldn't be teak in the cabin. Unfortunately the vintage boats I could afford all come from the “gotta have teak everywhere” era. So I'm stuck with it until it has to be replaced.
If I have to replace my cap rail I know two materials I will not use – Teak and Stainless (now – never would have thought of it before), well I probably would use Teak if I was getting ready to sell the boat.
Different strokes.On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Joseph Steiner < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:John,
Decking and other applications that are straight and therefore extrudable would not be available in an injection molded form. The molds would be far too expensive compared to an extrusion die.
I suppose you could buy HDPE and try to cut it to conform to the curve of the hull. Or cut it and install in sections, much like teak wood. You could even sand it and get a rounded edge. The beauty of teak especially when treated with a fine varnish, or teak oil, is hard to beat. HDPE is very difficult to paint, requiring a heat treatment or muriatic acid wash to remove the lubricants that are present to facilitate extrusion or injection molding.
I have seen some heavily filled examples for decking and even flooring in a marine application. It works, but if subjected to a blow, it will crack…so will teak.
But I can repair teak easily and then varnish it easily and it's as good as new. HDPE can be replaced too, a section at a time, and hopefully come close to color matching. Painting the whole thing is tricky, leaving streaks.
So….I suppose my main arguement boils down to the fact that I like the look of teak, can work with it easily, and I have had some bad experience with HDPE for outdoor applications in the Tropics where I sail.
Joe,— On Thu, 8/20/09, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
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Here’s another possibility: ipe. It’s inexpensive (relatively), wears
like iron, lasts forever and once it stops bleeding, requires no
maintenance.Downside? You need serious wood bits to shape it.
Wow, I think I’ll replace mine with ipe…
Bob
On 8/20/09, John Stevenson <> wrote:
Quote:Joe,
Thanks for the explanation, makes sense.
It really comes down to aesthetic preferences. I think Teak, even when
beautifully varnished, is one butt-ugly wood compared to a lot of other
hardwoods. If I had my preference there would be no wood anywhere on
Sarah’s deck, just in the cabin and it wouldn’t be teak in the cabin.
Unfortunately the vintage boats I could afford all come from the “gotta have
teak everywhere” era. So I’m stuck with it until it has to be replaced.
If I have to replace my cap rail I know two materials I will not use – Teak
and Stainless (now – never would have thought of it before), well I probably
would use Teak if I was getting ready to sell the boat.
Different strokes.On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Joseph Steiner <> wrote:
Quote:John,Decking and other applications that are straight and therefore extrudable
would not be available in an injection molded form. The molds would be far
too expensive compared to an extrusion die.
I suppose you could buy HDPE and try to cut it to conform to the curve of
the hull. Or cut it and install in sections, much like teak wood. You
could
even sand it and get a rounded edge. The beauty of teak especially when
treated with a fine varnish, or teak oil, is hard to beat. HDPE is very
difficult to paint, requiring a heat treatment or muriatic acid wash to
remove the lubricants that are present to facilitate extrusion or
injection
molding.
I have seen some heavily filled examples for decking and even flooring in
a
marine application. It works, but if subjected to a blow, it will
crack…so
will teak.
But I can repair teak easily and then varnish it easily and it’s as good
as
new. HDPE can be replaced too, a section at a time, and hopefully come
close
to color matching. Painting the whole thing is tricky, leaving streaks.
So….I suppose my main arguement boils down to the fact that I like the
look of teak, can work with it easily, and I have had some bad experience
with HDPE for outdoor applications in the Tropics where I sail.Joe,
— On *Thu, 8/20/09, John Stevenson <>* wrote:
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I have been looking at ipe, too. Ipe does have a lot going for it. The only shortcoming I could find is that it is not resistant to certain types of worms. There is a wood worker/cabinet maker here in Brunswick who does incredible work. Once the balance in the boat account gets back up I’m going to talk to him about doing the job. After all, talk is very cheap.
Lee
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Hi Lee,
I'm pretty sure the worms it's susceptible to aren't a problem since it probably has to be under water or in a forest where the worms live. And, personally, I'd hate to meet the worm that could bore into ipe….
Bob
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Lee Yonkers < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I have been looking at ipe, too. Ipe does have a lot going for it. The only shortcoming I could find is that it is not resistant to certain types of worms. There is a wood worker/cabinet maker here in Brunswick who does incredible work. Once the balance in the boat account gets back up I'm going to talk to him about doing the job. After all, talk is very cheap.Lee
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