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That’s right..a cracked keel..I nudged a coral reef in the Bahamas 5 years ago and now a survey shows a bit of seepage of water from the bilge as she sits on the hard.
I wonder if anyone here has had to repair a keel.
Mine has some epoxy ( and maybe some cement too? ) in the bilge ( which has cracked and that is now a problem as it has trapped water) which ultimately will cause fiberglass breakdown..an expensive fix to take out the epoxy/cement and repair the keel from the inside. I’m told just patching from the outside is a band-aid which will need repair again in 2-3 years.Does anyone have experience with such a problem?
many thanks,
Joe Steiner
s/v Half Moon
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What I’ve heard about these kind of things is…
Drill
Drain
RepairOther than that I’m not much help, but its the kind of thing I’d pay
someone to do.-p
Sent from my Surfboard
On Nov 17, 2012, at 13:30, Joseph Steiner wrote:
That’s right..a cracked keel..I nudged a coral reef in the Bahamas 5 years ago and now a survey shows a bit of seepage of water from the bilge as she sits on the hard.
I wonder if anyone here has had to repair a keel.
Mine has some epoxy ( and maybe some cement too? ) in the bilge ( which has cracked and that is now a problem as it has trapped water) which ultimately will cause fiberglass breakdown..an expensive fix to take out the epoxy/cement and repair the keel from the inside. I’m told just patching from the outside is a band-aid which will need repair again in 2-3 years.Does anyone have experience with such a problem?
many thanks,
Joe Steiner
s/v Half Moon
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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Hi Joe,
You can repair the keel from the outside. I’ve done it. It takes some
effort and a lot of grinding, but here’s how you do it:1: Make sure your bilge is dry and no water is going to get into it while
you’re working.2: Grind a wide and deep ‘V’ from the bottom in along the keel – you’ll see
the crack that’s causing the leakage and you’ll follow it both forward
until you’re at the ballast and aft until it runs out. Make the ground
surface as wide as possible.3: On the outside of the keel, grind in about 1/4″ along the keel up to
about 4″ above where you just ground the ‘V’. In cross section your ground
out section should look sort of like this: _ _/ if you get my
drift.
_/
_/4: Lay a single layer of cloth such as mat on the inside of the bilge. Do
a nice job and make sure it doesn’t sag into the notch too far (a little is
ok).5: Stop. You will want to start on the outside. Don’t. Let the inside
cloth set up. Really. If you don’t you’ll be very unhappy. Trust me, I
know.6: Rough up the outside of the cloth you laid in yesterday and wipe the
whole mess with acetone or MEK. Your choice.7: Cut progressively wider strips of mat and lay them in from the outside.
They will stay up as you wet them out. Do four or five at a time then let
it start to set up. If you don’t, they will get too hot and will boil and
bubble. Keep building it up until the bottom of the keel is full and
level. You’ll be putting in over an inch of material.8: At this point, you’ll probably want to let it all kick. It’s going to
be cocktail hour anyway. Stop here for the night.9: Sand, grind and shape the stuff at the bottom of the keel. The ‘V’
should be filled. The next and final step (other than painting) is to lay
cloth in the outside indent you ground that goes up 4″ on either side.
When I did mine, I alternated layers so the from just past the center on
the port side I ran it up to the top of the starboard side. Then the
opposite, then back, and so forth. It should take 4 to 6 layers
altogether.10: Finally, after that sets, sand smooth and fair and prime or barrier
coat, and paint. You’ll have a stronger keel than the boat was
manufactured with.Hope that helps.
Bob
On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
That’s right..a cracked keel..I nudged a coral reef in the Bahamas 5 years
ago and now a survey shows a bit of seepage of water from the bilge as she
sits on the hard.
I wonder if anyone here has had to repair a keel.
Mine has some epoxy ( and maybe some cement too? ) in the bilge ( which
has cracked and that is now a problem as it has trapped water) which
ultimately will cause fiberglass breakdown..an expensive fix to take out
the epoxy/cement and repair the keel from the inside. I’m told just
patching from the outside is a band-aid which will need repair again in 2-3
years.Does anyone have experience with such a problem?
many thanks,
Joe Steiner
s/v Half Moon
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—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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When I bought her there was a longitudinal crack three feet long about 16 inches from the lower edge. Probally someone blocked the keel under the hollow section. Like the good doctor says, it can be done. (And oft is). Plus I have a gnarly lump of epoxy in the bottom of my sump, also cracked and holding water. The solution depends on your own dimensions, or possibly your views on child labor.
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Joe,
This seems to be a P424 weak point. Other’s have had the same problem in
the same place. Here’s my story:Last winter I grounded lightly on a hard bottom while going about 1 knot
squeezing too far into a small harbor in the DR. I got right off using
the engine, anchored in deeper water, and never gave it another thought.
A month later I was diving under the boat in the Bahamas and noticed a
2′ long, thin crack in the bottom of the keel, aft. I inserted a blade
into it and figured it was maybe 1/2″ deep. There was nothing much to do
about it right then, so I carried on.Eventually I returned to my homeport on the St. Johns River in NE
Florida, and had the yard haul the boat out for summer dry storage.
There’s a master ‘glass guy here, an independent with a shop in the
yard. I asked him to grind out the crack so it could dry out for the 4+
months I was going to be away. When he got going on it, the crack turned
out to be much longer and much deeper than it had appeared. In fact, it
ran from just forward of the aft tip of the keel shoe all the way to the
ballast. When he finally got it all dug out the only thing left between
Davie Jones and the bilge sump was a layer of gel coat. Yikes! I guess
that’s probably the closest I’ve ever come to having a boat sink
offshore and I never even knew it!What made it so bad (and so scary) was that the fiberglass inside that
area was very pooly laid up, as if it had been repaired at some time in
the past by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. Either that or
one of Pearson’s lay-up guys was drunk at work that day in 1978.We left it to dry for the summer, after which the ‘glass guy repaired it
pretty much as Bob Fine described, except he ground higher up on the
sides of the keel. You can see that in the attached photos. The chisel
you see stuck into the keel’s gap is poking through the white gel coat
in the bilge sump. There was no solid glass under there at all! Now it’s
much, much better than new, strong enough to block up the boat at that
point if I want to.So, your dilemma is not singular and it is eminently repairable. I chose
to entrust that job to a real pro, knowing how good he is at his craft
and how important the bottom of my boat is to me.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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It’s not necessary to ground. It’s a weak point of the original layup. If
your boat has been blocked incorrectly you could already be in trouble
regardless of grounding.I’m not being terse. This is from my mobile.
On Nov 17, 2012 7:52 PM, “mary e. springhorn” wrote:Quote:Wow! Makes me glad I’ve have never grounded.
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Mary,
If you go cruising, you run aground from time to time. Happens to all of
us. It’s no big deal. The problem wasn’t that light grounding. That
didn’t cause the fault; it just brought it to the surface. The problem
was inside, a mess of faulty fiberglassing and filler that was invisible
until that moment. That’s what’s scary about it, its invisibility.
Discovering it was a blessing because now it’s fixed. Next time I touch
bottom I won’t worry about it. The keel is now solid and strong.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Thanks to everyone for your input!!
I am in Trinidad..good workers here…but???
I appreciate your comments..and they are in line with what has been proposed as a repair plan. My problem is aggravated by the fact my wife and I live aboard and are now in a hotel which is expensive and getting worse with each day we wait for the repairs. BUT I’m also afraid once they glass the inside of the bilge the odour of STYRENE will be unbearable for weeks, or months! I afaid to start the job..thinking maybe I can get away with glassing the exterior of the keel, and adding a layer of epoxy to the bottom of the interior.
Thoughts about that? Am I being overly paranoid about the styrene?
Joe Steiner________________________________
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IMHO, yes, you’re being overly paranoid about the styrene. Get it done,
do it right, don’t worry, be happy.🙂
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There is no styrene in epoxy resin or hardener (I checked the MSDS’s
for the west system. Gelcoat has styrene. To my experience, the
smell of the resin goes away one it has hardened.Pete
On 11/18/2012 8:31 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:IMHO, yes, you’re being overly paranoid about the styrene. Get it done,
do it right, don’t worry, be happy.🙂
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Pete and Tor’s input is consistent with my experience. When I had new
engine mounts fabricated 4 years ago, there was a good deal of fiberglass
work done. This was in the winter so the boat was closed up. There was a
strong smell on the days the resin was applied, but it went away in a few
hours. When gelcoat was applied I moved off for two days. When I returned
there was only a faint odor of the Styrene.John
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Quote:There is no styrene in epoxy resin or hardener (I checked the MSDS’s for
the west system. Gelcoat has styrene. To my experience, the smell of
the resin goes away one it has hardened.Pete
On 11/18/2012 8:31 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:IMHO, yes, you’re being overly paranoid about the styrene. Get it done,
do it right, don’t worry, be happy.
🙂
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Besides, could freshen up the smells of the bilge… ;^)
On 11/18/2012 9:29 AM, John Stevenson wrote:
Quote:Pete and Tor’s input is consistent with my experience. When I had new
engine mounts fabricated 4 years ago, there was a good deal of fiberglass
work done. This was in the winter so the boat was closed up. There was a
strong smell on the days the resin was applied, but it went away in a few
hours. When gelcoat was applied I moved off for two days. When I returned
there was only a faint odor of the Styrene.John
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Quote:There is no styrene in epoxy resin or hardener (I checked the MSDS’s for
the west system. Gelcoat has styrene. To my experience, the smell of
the resin goes away one it has hardened.Pete
On 11/18/2012 8:31 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:IMHO, yes, you’re being overly paranoid about the styrene. Get it done,
do it right, don’t worry, be happy.
🙂
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I guess the acid test will be when my wife decides that faint is faint enough. If we need to stay off the boat for only two days after the job is done, I will be delighted.
btw.. I was a resin salesman and fiberglass applicator teacher for 10 years ( 30-40 years ago). I will go ahead with this job and open the boat up and have a good fan in the bilge and then just wait. I’ll report back, hopefully before next Friday….:-)________________________________
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I’ll have that “new boat” smell….then can I ask for more when I list my boat for sale?
________________________________
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Joe
Are they doing the repair with polyester resin (has the styrene smell) or epoxy resin, which has very little ongoing smell. As you know, ideally secondary bonds should be done with epoxy resin.
However, most places will use polyester because it is much cheaper and faster to work with. You may want to check with the guys doing the repairs to see what they are planning on using.
Paul
On Nov 18, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
Quote:I’ll have that “new boat” smell….then can I ask for more when I list my boat for sale?________________________________
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They are planning to use polyester resin and glass mat. Polyester is best for adhesion to glass mat.
Unfortunately, polyester continues to cure for months, giving off minute levels of styrene in the process and styrene, even in extremely low concentration, is easily detected by the human nose.________________________________
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Have them use epoxy and chopped mat on the inside. They can use whatever
they want on the outside. Also, their excuse is a non starter. Polyester is
just cheaper and easier to work with. Actually just cheaper. Imho.I’m not being terse. This is from my mobile.
On Nov 19, 2012 5:41 AM, “Joseph Steiner” wrote:Quote:They are planning to use polyester resin and glass mat. Polyester is best
for adhesion to glass mat.
Unfortunately, polyester continues to cure for months, giving off minute
levels of styrene in the process and styrene, even in extremely low
concentration, is easily detected by the human nose.________________________________
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I don’t know that I have a problem, but I do know that my boat has been blocked improperly, and this last time when I was hauled (by trailer, not slings) the block was aft of the encapsulated lead. Much of the weight was on the pads, but even so….
My bilge appears to have a layup along the bottom that is about 3″ thick, maybe more, and the sides are over an inch thick (measured 2″ above the floor of the bilge). I have drilled drain plugs in the sides which facilitated measurements. So unless the bottom is filled with sawdust and shop rags, I would think it is pretty strong.
Do these cracks appear right along the very, very bottom? If so, how do they penetrate the entire 3″, or maybe mine has been repaired or built differently? (It is hull #1, and sometimes the first hull is overbuilt)
It sounded like Adam’s was a fair ways up the side, if I understood properly. That would be hard to imagine in mine, as the 1″ thick walls would probably support the boat even without the help of the fiberglass keel and keelson.
Also, is this a sinking risk? I am trying to determine if I need to do anything proactive.
Thanks all/
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Walter,
I’m going to talk about this a bit because it seems worthwhile for all
of us.The crack on the bottom of Silverheels’ keel was “on the bottom,” i.e.,
along the keel shoe or foot or whatever that part is properly called. I
had no way of knowing it was there until I discovered it as I’ve
mentioned previously, in the middle of a winter-long cruise when I
couldn’t do much about it. I could have schmoozed some underwater epoxy
into it I suppose, but I had no idea it went as deep as it did. Thinking
it a skin-deep issue, I figured it could wait until I got back and
hauled out.As for it being a sinking risk, well, my boat had a crack several feet
long that penetrated from the outside, the ocean side, inward to the gel
coat in the sump. So the only thing between my bilge down there and the
deep blue sea was 3/16″ of gel coat and a bunch of fractured fiberglass
with a big crack running through it. I sailed in that condition, mostly
single-handed, from the south coast of the DR to Haiti, through the
Windward Passage in a gale, the entire length of the Bahamas, across the
Gulf Stream and 30 miles up the St. Johns River. I don’t think it gets
much riskier than that except when seawater is actually pouring in. If I
had run aground in that condition I imagine it could have opened up
instantly and substantially. It might not have sunk my boat while I was
aboard; there is much you can do to save a boat when you’re in it. Of
course, if I managed to locate the source of the leak I could have made
a temporary repair to stop it – if I had reasonable conditions and
daylight to do it.The good news is, that “cracked keel” issue is repairable and
preventable. The bad news is, I don’t know how you’d know if your boat
has a problem lurking without either seeing an external crack as I did,
or grinding it all down “on spec,” seeing whether or not the ‘glass is
fractured, and then (either way) re-building it as mine was recently
rebuilt.I drilled through the side of my sump a few years ago to install a drain
plug. I don’t recall now exactly how thick the ‘glass was; at least
3/4″. I had just 1-1/4″ of ‘glass beneath my bilge sump when my repair
guy ground it all out. Now I have 1-1/2″ built up there. If you (Walter)
have got 3″ of fiberglass under your bilge sump then your hull #1 was
considerably more heavily built than my #17 and you may not every have a
problem in that area.The cracked keel almost certainly stems from this relatively weak spot
beneath the deep sump area. I’m sure my boat has been blocked up back
there countless times in her 34 years, and also since I’ve owned her.
She will not be again while I own her, though. I’ve learned that lesson.After discussing this some more with the ‘glass pro here that repaired
Silverheels’ keel, we surmise the following: Over many years of being
blocked up back there the fiberglass became fractured. Eventually a fore
& aft crack formed on the keel’s foot. Someone repaired this crack on my
boat at some time in the past, but they only ground down on the outside
skin deep and ‘glassed over it. Baaaad thing to do – worse to then sell
the boat and not mention it. The fractured fiberglass inside only got
worse over the years of periodic, improper blocking and eventually the
crack re-appeared on the outside surface of the keel foot last winter
and I noticed it. It ran from about 8″ forward of the aft end of the
keel foot all the way to the ballast.My repair guy ground out ALL of the fractured ‘glass and re-built that
entire keel section with perfect lay-ups so that it’s now as strong or
stronger than new, and about 1/4″ thicker. I’m a happy captain and
confident about going to sea again in this boat.In the future, this is what he recommended regarding blocking the boat
up on the hard:– Set the boat down on 2 blocks, one under the ballast at the forward
end of the keel, and one at the very aft tip of the keel, extending
several inches forward from there but NOT under the sump area. Do not
set the boat down on a block that is under the sump, as my boat yard has
done and, I’ll wager, scores of others when blocking up 424’s.– By tapping on the hull, find the bulkhead inside that is athwart the
engine compartment, set a pair of jack stand pads on those spots port &
starboard, and tighten them up hard so that they are helping support the
weight of the engine back there. (Once you know these spots, you might
mark them with a different color bottom paint or a waterline marking to
make it easy for yard workers to position the pads correctly.)– Do not put weight on jack stand pads that are not located at
bulkheads. They will flex the thin P424 hull unduly (I could see it when
he pointed it out) and may cause problems down the line. Ideally, all
jack stands should be at bulkheads.Living & learning,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Excellent! In trying to find root cause, I am remembering what I thought was a poor job of placing jackstands and blocks at Jarrett Bay. I did not think much more about it until your email today.
I do remember kissing a coral reef when I left Marsh Harbor, making that right hand turn a little too close to the point, the boat lifted ever so slightly as I heard a grinding sound similar to the sound of an iceberg on Titanic…UGH!
Yeah..live and learn outside your comfort zone.
Joe,________________________________
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Thanks Tor,
A couple more questions if you don’t mind:
What did the crack look like, was it just a hairline?
Did you have noticeable leakage at any time?
The bottom of your bilge, was it round like the outside, or was it pretty flat like mine? Mine looks like a lot of epoxy was poured in there until the bottom got pretty flat.
And Adam, was your crack higher up, as I interpreted?
thanks again.
BTW, I just bought a poseidon gas dive compressor for the boat, I am stoked. I have another Cornelius compact compressor that runs on 110 volts, if anyone is interested. PM me rather than hijacking the thread further than I have already.
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Walter,
The crack I had was obvious on the outside, more than hairline.
I had no leakage as far as I know.
The bottom of my bilge sump is flat.Good luck,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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5 layers of chopped mat and epoxy on the inside of the bilge, 3 layers glass and epoxy outside, mated to the inside where the bilge pump is located ( weakest point) and $1700 and I will be launching Friday !!
Thanks everyone for your input!!
Joe,
________________________________
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This is a weak spot on the boat. Moisture intrusion can come from both inside and out.
If your bilge is perpetually damp this may very likely be the source. Once compromised the laminate collapses inward when blocked and water migrates through the voids. Eventually you’ll see the distortion above the block it rests on.
Finding dry solid laminate around the cracked area with a grinder can be tedious. A sawzall made for short work. You can see the results.
The fix was solid, pie shaped stack of FRP laminated, shaped, bonded and tabbed to the existing laminate. Just above the hole some ribs were glassed across to provide some rigidity to the existing keel and provide more bonding surface. The whole assembly has several layers of 1708 glass mat around it and extends well up onto the existing laminate.
Presently it carries the weight of the boat when blocked and the bilge is dry as a bone.
To make the repair the rig should come down. The skeg will carry the load of the aft end of the keel when blocked.
To do it again I’ve got some thoughts on making it better. Its a tedious repair but not all that difficult.
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I found a couple more photos of repair in process. I added them to the photo album.
Chuck
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Crack in keel… ha! that’s a new keel! Wow!
On 11/28/2012 8:59 AM, Chuck Ruble wrote:
I found a couple more photos of repair in process. I added them to the photo album.
Chuck
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Looks like a job well done.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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