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I’m not getting any younger and neither is the boat. I am getting ready to
launch the boat and noticed that there is what I hope is minor deck rot
around the mast hole. I first noticed water on the cabin sole around the
mast step. Closer inspection showed wet and soft wood inside the deck. The
deck has a plywood sandwitch around the mast hole, not balsa.I pull the mast each winter so inspection of the inside of the hole is easy.
I’ve seen water penetration before but never had rot. I try to keep up with
it so its never gotten serious. The mast works against the mast collar and
tends to break the caulk seal over time. Every year or two I’ve had to pull
the deck ring and rebed it. For those of you who don’t pull your mast, you
might consider recaulking the deck ring every couple of years. It could be
done with the mast in place. If you have water leaking down the side of the
mast near the table for some time, you may have rot too.An inspection of the deck core shows soft, wet wood at the first laminate.
Lower laminates appear dryer and in better shape. Its hard to see how far
the rot progresses. My guess would be about an inch, hopefully less.
Unlike rotted balsa, rotted plywood requires a cutting tool to remove. My
plan is to remove the deck ring and run a router around the inside of the
hole using a biscuit joiner bit. This will cut a groove about 1/8″ thick
and 3/4″ deep. This should remove most if not all the rot. If it
progresses more I may have to take more drastic action that may include a
deeper cutting tool. I’ll let it dry, possibly spraying in boric acid
first. I’ll cut teak strips to lay in the slot using a waterproof wood
adhesive such as liquid nails. Then I’ll run a laminate bit around the
inside of the hole to trim it out.Here’s a link to my previous deck-rot project for those who haven’t read it.
http://www.richardcarter.net/boat/deckRot/Rich
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Sounds like a solid plan to me!
When our mast was out we removed all the old gelcoat that was lining the
mast partner because it was cracked. We sanded it all down and slowly
layered up epoxy over a couple of days.– http://www.flickr.com/photos/deepplaya/4534153696/in/photostream
– http://www.flickr.com/photos/deepplaya/4556329386/in/photostream
– http://www.flickr.com/photos/deepplaya/4555700775/in/photostream
– http://www.flickr.com/photos/deepplaya/5634040092/in/photostreamNot sure you can see it clearly, but believe me that thing is SMOOOOOTH. We
did this in preparation for installing spartite which we’ve yet to do yet.
I’m still not happy with how the mast is lined up in the mast partner (it
sits way off to starboard and forward).-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlayaOn Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Rich Carter wrote:
I’m not getting any younger and neither is the boat. I am getting ready to
launch the boat and noticed that there is what I hope is minor deck rot
around the mast hole. I first noticed water on the cabin sole around the
mast step. Closer inspection showed wet and soft wood inside the deck.
The
deck has a plywood sandwitch around the mast hole, not balsa.I pull the mast each winter so inspection of the inside of the hole is
easy.
I’ve seen water penetration before but never had rot. I try to keep up
with
it so its never gotten serious. The mast works against the mast collar and
tends to break the caulk seal over time. Every year or two I’ve had to
pull
the deck ring and rebed it. For those of you who don’t pull your mast, you
might consider recaulking the deck ring every couple of years. It could be
done with the mast in place. If you have water leaking down the side of the
mast near the table for some time, you may have rot too.An inspection of the deck core shows soft, wet wood at the first laminate.
Lower laminates appear dryer and in better shape. Its hard to see how far
the rot progresses. My guess would be about an inch, hopefully less.
Unlike rotted balsa, rotted plywood requires a cutting tool to remove. My
plan is to remove the deck ring and run a router around the inside of the
hole using a biscuit joiner bit. This will cut a groove about 1/8″ thick
and 3/4″ deep. This should remove most if not all the rot. If it
progresses more I may have to take more drastic action that may include a
deeper cutting tool. I’ll let it dry, possibly spraying in boric acid
first. I’ll cut teak strips to lay in the slot using a waterproof wood
adhesive such as liquid nails. Then I’ll run a laminate bit around the
inside of the hole to trim it out.Here’s a link to my previous deck-rot project for those who haven’t read
it.
http://www.richardcarter.net/boat/deckRot/Rich
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Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Pat
The problem I have is that the caulking seal around the collar breaks, allowing water to leak under the collar. I don’t know yet if it gets into the screw holes and won’t find out until I dig out the rotted wood to see how deep it goes. I’ve typically used polysulfide and I’ve tried silicone sealant. I might try something different this time. I used Dicor RV lap sealant on my chainplates a few years back and it seems to be holding up very well. I use this on our camper to seal the roof seams. Dicor remains flexible. I have a few tubes left over from the last time I renewed the seams on our camper deck. Its not marine and I feel guilty not paying the marine premium when I use it. Butyl rubber tape might also be a good choice as long as the screws are set with caulk.http://www.dicor.com/Product.aspx?ID=12
Rich
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Curious… why is the collar being “worked” so that that the bond is
breaking? Is the deck flexing a lot or is your mast rubbing the collar? Mast
shouldn’t rub and the deck flexing should be controlled by the compression
post forward of the mast. OR, maybe it’s not mechanical “working” causing
the issue and you have some contamination that is preventing it from
bonding?If it needs more mechanical give then I’d go with something you can build up
and set it in like a gasket and I’d get rid of the screws and instead
through bolt the collar with big fender washers or maybe even a full backing
plate. It would have to be in two pieces or installed with the mast out if
not.Just some ideas… hope they help!
-p—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlayaOn Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 6:21 AM, wrote:
Quote:Pat
The problem I have is that the caulking seal around the collar breaks,
allowing water to leak under the collar. I don’t know yet if it gets into
the screw holes and won’t find out until I dig out the rotted wood to see
how deep it goes. I’ve typically used polysulfide and I’ve tried silicone
sealant. I might try something different this time. I used Dicor RV lap
sealant on my chainplates a few years back and it seems to be holding up
very well. I use this on our camper to seal the roof seams. Dicor remains
flexible. I have a few tubes left over from the last time I renewed the
seams on our camper deck. Its not marine and I feel guilty not paying the
marine premium when I use it. Butyl rubber tape might also be a good choice
as long as the screws are set with caulk.http://www.dicor.com/Product.aspx?ID=12
Rich
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Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Pat
My mast is set through the deck with wooden shims. The shims compress against the mast collar. Its always been that way. I assume everyone else has the same setup. The mast will probably sit straight with no shrouds holding it, though I’ve never tried it.Rich
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I use spar tite every three years. NO mess, no water, and keeps the mast in
the right place.
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Yup, pretty standard – those are called mast wedges and it’s been the way to
support the mast in the partners since the first keel stepped mast. You
should have a tie-down rod just in front of the mast that bolts to the step
and the partners to prevent the deck from working, a very common problem
with keel stepped masts. If you don’t have that rod or some other way of
preventing the deck from moving in relation to the keel, you should consider
putting one in – it can be a simple cable and turnbuckle to the mast and the
partners.Or maybe we’re not understanding what’s causing all the motion.
Bob
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote:
Quote:Pat
My mast is set through the deck with wooden shims. The shims compress
against the mast collar. Its always been that way. I assume everyone else
has the same setup. The mast will probably sit straight with no shrouds
holding it, though I’ve never tried it.Rich
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My mast has a heavy, fitted rubber collar around that deck aperture in
lieu of wedges. I assumed it was original. As far as I can tell, there
has been no movement there. A boot I bought (from West Marine, I think)
covers the whole. No leaks, no problems that I know of.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hi Tor,
You have a Spartite installation. Nice. The rest of us are wedges and
stuff.Bob
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:My mast has a heavy, fitted rubber collar around that deck aperture in
lieu of wedges. I assumed it was original. As far as I can tell, there
has been no movement there. A boot I bought (from West Marine, I think)
covers the whole. No leaks, no problems that I know of.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Bob,
Yes, I have a steel rod also. The mast works when the boat sails. Its just
the way things work. On port tack, the boat heels to starboard and
vice-verse. This places alternate loads on the wedges as does adjusting the
backstay tension when pointing vs running. Over a period of a couple or
three years, the sealant under the collar will need to be renewed.The chain-plates work also and need to be recaulked at about the same rate.
If you don’t keep up with leaks around the chainplates, water will not only
get into the deck but also under the chainplate. Stainless doesn’t like to
stay wet under a seal. It causes crevice corrosion.Rich
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Update:
I repaired the mast collar as discussed earlier. After removing the aluminum collar, I found that the seal had indeed failed. I don’t think water had gotten through the screw-holes. It had been bedded with silicon caulking. I routed out the rotted area and found that it didn’t extend very deep. The router seems to have removed all rot. The underside of the collar was corroded where water had gotten in. I wire-brushed the aluminum casting and painted it this time. I’m not sure why this problem re-occurs. My theory is that the mast works and eventually breaks the seal, but it could be corrosion that works its way under the casting. Maybe painting the thing will make it last longer. I re-bedded with silicon caulk and I’m good for another few years. I don’t remember when I last fixed this, maybe 4 years ago. I’m tired of fixing the same things over and over. At least this isn’t a big job, maybe 3 hours total.I’m in the process of re-plumbing the head, replacing the electra-san, adding a holding tank, and replacing all the hoses. Now that’s a big job, yuck!
Pulled one of the battery banks last night. One bank was dead, wouldn’t hold a charge. The bank was a pair of big AGM batteries in parallel. One was split open at one end. I’ve seen this before in AGM batteries. Not sure I like them anymore. The other bank is a pair of Sam’s Club golf-cart batteries and they are still fine after 5 years.
Rich
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Rich,
Look into L-16 batteries by Trojan or Deka. I love them!
Joe,
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Charisma’s current house bank (640 amp hrs) is four, L-16 golf cart
batteries. These replaced two, 4-D AGM’s, and I’ve had no regrets. Should one
L-16 fail, I can muscle it out for exchange myself – can’t do that with a 4-D
by myself – at least not at age 64!
BILL~~~ ~ (_~~ (_~ ~ ~ fair winds ~ ~ (_
Capt Bill Tice, aboard s/v CHARISMAIn a message dated 4/25/2011 5:57:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:Rich,
Look into L-16 batteries by Trojan or Deka. I love them!
Joe,
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Holy smokes, $400 for one 6v battery!
They look like the forklift batteries I had a few years back. They were heavy and gave the boat a list. I since moved the batteries to the bilge where the weight will do some good. Not enough height for a tall battery though.Rich
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I guess AGMs are good if you don’t want to bother checking water levels, but apparently thry are easy to ruin if the charging voltage gets too high. I’ve heard conflicting information about acceptance rates. Probably AGMs are not much easier to charge than wet cell batteries, tho’ we know at least on boat who fried the alternator charging AGMs.
We have 8 Interstate golf carts, and two 100 amp alternators. When they are down, we see charging rates as high as 150 amps, about 20% of bank capacity.
We got the first Interstate GCs in Georgia on the way south a couple years ago when our 5 year old Sams Club GCs gave out. They were the cheapest line, all the dealer had in stock. They were failing by the time we reach Vero Beach. Interstate to their credit replaced them all with their best batteries at no extra cost. Since we had to transfer them ashore by dinghy, we were glad we didn’t have heavier batteries.
The new Interstates have been fine,
After inspecting the returned batteries the local Interstate guy called me to say that I had overwatered the batteries by filling them to the fill mark. He said they should only be filled to just cover the plates. Have not heard that before or since.
Quent
Clairebuoyant #132 -
I have the Interstates also, 2×2. nice plate weight. holding their own
after 2 years. and nominally higher amp hours than Odyssey GC batteries at
just over half the price.-as
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I had bad luck with two Interstates in a row. The first developed a dead cell within a year. The under warranty replacement ended up with a weak cell that I was never able to bring up to par, even with coaching from their tech support. I vowed after that never to buy an expensive battery without first putting my hydrometer to each cell. The dealer who replaced the original tested it with a vvolt meter. It registered 12+ volts. He said the battery was OK. I asked him if he had an hydrometer. He said no! (At least he knew what an hydrometer is.) I took some fluid from the dead cell and he agreed it was dead. I should’ve checked the replacement cells at that time. We were on PEI and he came by tractor-trailer from New Bunswick once a week and by the time I discovered the problem, I decided to live with the weak cell and that Insterste’s were a lost cause in any event.
Sometime after that I went to a non-Interstate battery dealer to replace a pair of GCs. I found weak cells is each of several “fresh” batteries. The problem: they were sitting on shelves self-discharging with no effort on the part of the dealer to occasionally charge them. Their business model seemed to be that the turnover was sufficient to move batteries before they self-discharged too seriously, relying,. of couse, on the fact that very few customers would have the tech knowledge to test cells with a serious hydrometer. The dealer called their tech support and we had a three-way conversation. The techie agreed with me that the sp.g. in the cells was too low for the batteries to be considered “factory fresh.” I ended up going to Sam’s club, were although they didn’t allow cell testing in the store, the batteries were cheap and were still working fine after four years. The batteries were charged by a 150 amp alternator dedicated to house banks during
anchoring and weighing manuevers.Norris Larson, formerly of Easy Reach, #206.
— On Tue, 4/26/11, quent wrote:
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Rich, what are the screws that the ring is held down with fastened too within the deck? I pulled my headliner down looking for a leak source and thought I’d see the underside of the fasteners. They are inset into the deck?
Chuck
@RichCarter wrote:
Pat
The problem I have is that the caulking seal around the collar breaks, allowing water to leak under the collar. I don’t know yet if it gets into the screw holes and won’t find out until I dig out the rotted wood to see how deep it goes. I’ve typically used polysulfide and I’ve tried silicone sealant. I might try something different this time. I used Dicor RV lap sealant on my chainplates a few years back and it seems to be holding up very well. I use this on our camper to seal the roof seams. Dicor remains flexible. I have a few tubes left over from the last time I renewed the seams on our camper deck. Its not marine and I feel guilty not paying the marine premium when I use it. Butyl rubber tape might also be a good choice as long as the screws are set with caulk.http://www.dicor.com/Product.aspx?ID=12
Rich
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I lifted the ring today. You are right, nothing but self tapping screws. I see why the sealant can be compromised so easily.
I’m going to pull the stick this week and clean it up properly. I would think that if the ring (partner) were through bolted to the underside of the cabin top it could be properly bedded and remain sealed. My thought is maybe an FRP ring the same width as the partner would better replace the top layer of glass and plywood beneath. Leave the lower section of glass and bond to that. The FRP ring could probably come up off the deck about .5 inches allowing the lower mast boot clamp to go flush to the deck vs the collar above the screws.
Mast wiring and loosening the rigging was all simple enough. The salon table was quite the rubik’s cube though.Mast step looks like it could stand to be replaced. Hoping it separates from the stick with no issues.
Chuck
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Almost everything that hasn’t been re-done was just screwed directly into
the core on our boat (turtles). We drilled a larger hole from the top and
did not go all the way through, removed the core around, filled with epoxy,
drilled a new hole and used the same screws or similiarly sized ones. Now
the screws can’t leak into the core.-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlayaOn Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Chuck Ruble wrote:
I lifted the ring today. You are right, nothing but self tapping screws.
I see why the sealant can be compromised so easily.
I’m going to pull the stick this week and clean it up properly. I would
think that if the ring (partner) were through bolted to the underside of the
cabin top it could be properly bedded and remain sealed. My thought is
maybe an FRP ring the same width as the partner would better replace the top
layer of glass and plywood beneath. Leave the lower section of glass and
bond to that. The FRP ring could probably come up off the deck about .5
inches allowing the lower mast boot clamp to go flush to the deck vs the
collar above the screws.
Mast wiring and loosening the rigging was all simple enough. The salon
table was quite the rubik’s cube though.Mast step looks like it could stand to be replaced. Hoping it separates
from the stick with no issues.Chuck
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Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
I’ve done that every time I’ve mounted or re-mounted anything on my boat
since I bought her; over-drilling, filling with epoxy and then drilling
for the fastener, whether screw or thru-bolt. Of course, we all wish
Pearson had done it this way when they built the boat, but I don’t know
if any builder did then. Maybe no-one had thought of it yet in the
1970’s.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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It is unfortunate that that wasn’t done, however, until the mid ’80s
manufacturers figured the boats would last a bit longer than their wooden
predecessors. Imagine their dismay when they found that a fiberglass boat
will basically last forever, even with core rot.From what I’ve seen of modern boats in my repair service, either there is
marine plywood in the core wherever hardware goes through, or it’s just the
regular balsa/foam core, or it’s just fiberglass.The only boat I’ve seen that has epoxy around fittings is the Amel Super
Miramu where they somehow installed all the deck fittings when it was just
out of the mold and then filled the whole thing in with some kind of epoxy
foam. Can you say massively heavy? Also, rebedding the hatches was a
horrible, horrible job because they mounted them with screws and nuts, the
nuts being buried in this awful epoxy stuff. A two hour job now becomes an
8 hour job.But I digress.
I think most manufacturers take shortcuts to sort of insure the boat doesn’t
last forever. Otherwise, how else can they sell new boats?Bob
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:I’ve done that every time I’ve mounted or re-mounted anything on my boat
since I bought her; over-drilling, filling with epoxy and then drilling
for the fastener, whether screw or thru-bolt. Of course, we all wish
Pearson had done it this way when they built the boat, but I don’t know
if any builder did then. Maybe no-one had thought of it yet in the
1970’s.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Alas, Bob, that’s too true. One notable exception was Valiant Yachts
after 1983, when Rich Worstell took over the company and moved it to
Texas. Valiant used structural high-density foam as the core material
wherever they intended or expected deck hardware to be mounted. If they
had to mount something later where the core was (end-grain,
resin-saturated) balsa, they always over-drilled, epoxy-filled and
re-drilled for the fasteners. That’s where I first learned that trick.Valiant Yachts was a family-owned, small-production, semi-custom builder
that unfortunately shut down last year, another victim of the recession.
They weren’t perfect, but they made more honest effort to do things
properly than any production builder I’ve ever seen, and IMHO did a
better overall job of it than many if not most custom builders.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hi Tor,
I agree with you – Valiant was quite a yacht and still command high prices,
even for old ones. I visited their factory in Bristol, Rhode Island and was
really impressed. They were working, at the time, on a dual-rudder, shallow
draft, very fast cruising boat. I never saw one after the one in the
factory, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.Sadly, most of the manufacturers in RI have left or gone out of business.
It used to be you could walk a half hour from the town center and be amongst
some of the most advanced vessel production facilities anywhere.I happen to like Bristol for the Hereshoff Museum and the America’s Cup
Museum. Amazing, both.Anyway, I’m sure I can’t afford a Valiant…
Bob
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Alas, Bob, that’s too true. One notable exception was Valiant Yachts
after 1983, when Rich Worstell took over the company and moved it to
Texas. Valiant used structural high-density foam as the core material
wherever they intended or expected deck hardware to be mounted. If they
had to mount something later where the core was (end-grain,
resin-saturated) balsa, they always over-drilled, epoxy-filled and
re-drilled for the fasteners. That’s where I first learned that trick.Valiant Yachts was a family-owned, small-production, semi-custom builder
that unfortunately shut down last year, another victim of the recession.
They weren’t perfect, but they made more honest effort to do things
properly than any production builder I’ve ever seen, and IMHO did a
better overall job of it than many if not most custom builders.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Bob,
There were some good builders in Bristol/Portsmouth and still are, but
Valiant was never among them. You’re thinking of another builder;
Shannon, Bristol, Freedom, Alden, J-Boats, several custom shops…
Valiant’s were built exclusively in Gordonville, Texas since 1983. Prior
to that the early V40’s were built in Bellingham, Washington.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Oops, my bad. You’re one hundred and ten percent correct – I get Shannon
and Valiant mixed up. In my last, just substitute Shannon for Valiant and
Bob’s your uncle.Bob
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Bob,There were some good builders in Bristol/Portsmouth and still are, but
Valiant was never among them. You’re thinking of another builder;
Shannon, Bristol, Freedom, Alden, J-Boats, several custom shops…
Valiant’s were built exclusively in Gordonville, Texas since 1983. Prior
to that the early V40’s were built in Bellingham, Washington.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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You’re my uncle?
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Never thought of that. Cool idea. I usually thicken my hole-fill epoxy
with that WEST 404 stuff. It’s plenty strong.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Yes, an English (British) idiom meaning instantly or “just like that!”
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I had the same rot around my mast and did some extensive repairs last year,including having a new mast shoe fabricated. When I dropped the overhead panels down the plywood literally disintegrated into a 5 gallon bucket. What a gooey nasty mess. I ended up actually doing away with the original egg colored overhead vinyl panels. I found some 4X8 sheets of a white composite paneling at Lowes. It was fairly inexpensive, The description says it’s water resistant…time will tell. It gave the main salon a great Hereshoff look and really brightened things up. I even insulated the complete overhead in the main salon. Rebedded all the hatches and hand rails, hopefully now no running water down the bulkheads!
calico jackCalico Jack
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Jack,I used the same panelling for the ceiling 3 years ago and it still looks great.
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 28, 2011, at 5:41, “calicojack” wrote:
I had the same rot around my mast and did some extensive repairs last year,including having a new mast shoe fabricated. When I dropped the overhead panels down the plywood literally disintegrated into a 5 gallon bucket. What a gooey nasty mess. I ended up actually doing away with the original egg colored overhead vinyl panels. I found some 4X8 sheets of a white composite paneling at Lowes. It was fairly inexpensive, The description says it’s water resistant…time will tell. It gave the main salon a great Hereshoff look and really brightened things up. I even insulated the complete overhead in the main salon. Rebedded all the hatches and hand rails, hopefully now no running water down the bulkheads!
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Joe Shimkonis
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