- This topic has 30 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 1 month ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
I’m presently in the process of installing a new anchoring system and electric windlass on Lady Leanne. We have 2 new AGM 4Ds for the house and a new #27 AGM dedicated to the starter. All kept up by a new Xantrex.
My latest question as I grovel through new territory is whether to install a dedicated battery to the windlass or just wire to the house. Wire be wire, so either way, I’ll have to string up some BIG cable.
Any thought or guidance from my Pearson colleagues?
Dan Kalinowski
Lady Leanne II (#135)
Atlanta/Honolulu -
Dan,
I opted for a dedicated #27 AGM, which I mounted low and just aft of the
forward water tank (offset to port on my boat, but take your pick). One
advantage to this is that you don’t need to run expensive 1 AWG battery
cable all the way from the main battery bank aft to the foredeck. I used
6-gauge wire, plenty big to carry the charging current forward to the
battery, and then 1-gauge cables from there to the control box and windlass
motor. The second advantage is that the big working current has less
distance to travel from battery to windlass motor, which is more efficient.Seems to me a starter battery might be better suited to this application
than a deep cycle – the windlass load is big and brief rather than gradual
and long-term – but I was installing all AGM’s in the boat and they were all
deep cycle. The above set-up works fine, as it did for 6 years and many
nautical miles in my previous cruising boat.Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I added a group 27 battery under the V Berth for the windless. It is connected to the charging system via an Echo charge unit.
If don’t do this you will need to run VERY BIG wires the length of the boat. Very Expensive and very HEAVY wires.
I check the water in the windless battery once a year and never had to add water. I anchored out every day for almost a year and never had an issue with charging the battery. This would include picking up the anchor several times before either getting it to hold or finding a suitable spot.
Alan— On Mon, 10/11/10, kalinowski <> wrote:
<.. snip>
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Dan
Like everything else, there are trade-offs with this. If you put a battery
up forward, you don’t have to run 100A down that cable to power the
windlass. It can be powered directly from the forward battery. You only
need to run a charging current to the battery. A 10AWG cable would probably
do fine. A large-capacity starter battery would be better than a deep-cycle
battery. An AGM battery might even work better.The windlass would work best if it were tied directly to your house bank
however because your alternator should keep your house bank up to 13.8 or
14.4v even under load whereas the forward battery will droop to less than
12v under load if wired in with a small cable. You’ll have about 30% more
power if you run a proper heavy gauge cable directly to your house bank.
You’ll need 2/0 cable however which is not cheap. You can use inexpensive
houshold cable for most of the run and just crimp expensive battery cable
quality pieces on the ends to save a few bucks. You may need to switch down
to a smaller cable to fit through the windlass housing. Its OK to use a
smaller cable for a short run but keep it as short as possible.Here’s a good deal on cable. He sells both red and black. You’ll need 50′
of each ($170/50ft).
http://cgi.ebay.com/50-SGR-2-0-PREMIUM-RED-BATTERY-SOLAR-CABLE-SAE-J-1127-/3
50399179628?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0West Marine sells crimp terminals for big wire like this. A nico-press tool
works great for this or you can buy a crimp tool at Home Depot for about
$40.Rich
Quote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Dan-
You don’t say what windlass you plan to use. The power draw of the windlass will probably determine the best approach.
Take a look at the charts on p. 422 of the West Marine catalogue. If you tolerate a 10% voltage drop from your battery bank, which assuming your HD alternator is holding at 13+ volts, is better than the less than 12 volts that the forward battery will provide. The chart shows that 1ga or 0ga will work if your load is about 150 amps. If your battery bank is closer, maybe even lighter wire.
I suggest you use tinned marine UL approved 105 degree C wire. A friend of mine set his V berth on fire because he used welding cable for the windlass. Cheap wire corrodes, heats up and catches fire. Cheap insulation melts.
Be sure that your breaker rating is less than the maximum amp rating of the wire.
Quent
Clairebuoyant, #132 -
I thought welding cable was a more efficient conductor: more strands, more surface area for the copper conductor. It certainly is not cheaper than standard cable. ‘sup with that?
Adam Silverstein
Cranking away on the sea tiger 555On Oct 12, 2010, at 8:07 PM, “quent” <> wrote:
Dan-
You don’t say what windlass you plan to use. The power draw of the windlass will probably determine the best approach.
Take a look at the charts on p. 422 of the West Marine catalogue. If you tolerate a 10% voltage drop from your battery bank, which assuming your HD alternator is holding at 13+ volts, is better than the less than 12 volts that the forward battery will provide. The chart shows that 1ga or 0ga will work if your load is about 150 amps. If your battery bank is closer, maybe even lighter wire.
I suggest you use tinned marine UL approved 105 degree C wire. A friend of mine set his V berth on fire because he used welding cable for the windlass. Cheap wire corrodes, heats up and catches fire. Cheap insulation melts.
Be sure that your breaker rating is less than the maximum amp rating of the wire.
Quent
Clairebuoyant, #132_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Thanks for all the advice. The windlass I’m considering is the Maxwell HRC 10-10. It draws 120 amps @ 12 volts. My college student son at U of Hawai’i, is now a part time employee at West (YEA…..big discount) so all costs are manageable. From forum responses, it seems as though a dedicated battery with shorter big cable runs might be less expensive. On the other hand, there are considerations about the charging capabilities of a house run set up. My horizons are expanding! I appreciate all comments!
Dan Kalinowski
Lady Leanne II (#135)
Atlanta/Honolulu -
…. and in reality, although the windlass draws 150 amps, it is only “on” for less than 2 or 3 minutes. So what that means is the actual number of amps “consumed” is not really all that much. ( 2.5 amps per minute – give or take and that is at max draw which rarely happens anyhow) You most likely will have engine running when you raise the anchor so the battery will be recharged quickly. You can use on ECHO charger connected to the house bank or starting bank. This will charge the windless battery anytime the charging voltage gets over a set point voltage (I think around the 14.xxx range).
Using this method the charging wire that is run from the back of the boat to the pointy end can be like a 6 ga wire.
It is more important to have LARGE cables between the battery and the windless to keep the voltage drop to a minimum and the heat loses down.
FWIW, I have a 2nd ECHO charge setup to charge my starting battery.
Hope this helps
Alan
unabated— On Tue, 10/12/10, kalinowski <> wrote:
<.. snip>
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Alan,
Why not just tie the windlass battery to the house bank? As you pointed out,
the windlass only runs for a few minutes a day, if that. The rest of the
time that forward battery’s amps could be available for house use, and it
gets recharged when the others get recharged. A simple in-line breaker
switch gives you the ability to separate it from the house bank anytime.
Anyway, that’s the way mine’s set up and it seems functional enough. I’m not
sure I see an advantage to total isolation, let alone the echo charger, but
then I’ve never been an electronics wiz.Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
My vote is same as Adam’s which is run welding cable from aft batteries
forward to windlass. Not really that difficult to do (I did it myself with
no helper). Hardest part was climbing aboard up a ladder in the yard with
the weight of approx 40 ft of 00 cable on my shoulder! I did have to borrow
a large crimping tool to make the connections up at the windlass motor
after I cut the cable where I needed to. Has been perfect for 15 years now!
BTW, I have a Maxwell 1200 VWC unit.Rodd Leeds
Windseeker, #214
https://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Hey Bill,
Seems to me all these various approaches work. I did use tinned marine
cable, but only because it was easily available at the time. I’ve heard
plenty of testimonials for welding cable. Why do you say tinned is a must?Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
My windlass runs off the main battery bank just fine. I have a switch
and breaker box in the nav station locker so I can turn the power on/off
conveniently (how would you do this conveniently if the battery were
forward except for a very expensive remote switch?) Also have a red
light in the cockpit with the start/preheat button so I know when the
windlass has power. There is a low mounted switch in the cockpit so I
can lower the anchor with toe control and a control socket at the bow.
You guys know I love over-engineered solutions but adding another
battery to take care of/replace is of little interest to me.Pete
On 10/13/2010 7:00 AM, SilverHeels wrote:
Quote:Alan,Why not just tie the windlass battery to the house bank? As you pointed out,
the windlass only runs for a few minutes a day, if that. The rest of the
time that forward battery’s amps could be available for house use, and it
gets recharged when the others get recharged. A simple in-line breaker
switch gives you the ability to separate it from the house bank anytime.
Anyway, that’s the way mine’s set up and it seems functional enough. I’m not
sure I see an advantage to total isolation, let alone the echo charger, but
then I’ve never been an electronics wiz.Tor
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Here is my take and I am sorry in advance if I sound like I am on a soap box and I don’t want to take away from anyone else’s working solution but……
Dedicated means just that, I don’t use it for anything else. It’s always charged and ready for use no matter what happens to anything else. Just like a dedicated starting battery, you don’t have that tied into your house bank (although you can).
My windless charging circuit is fused and switched at both ends.
I use an Exide group 27 starting battery worth about 80 bucks. If you tied your windlass battery into the house bank it would have to be the same size and type AND have the same size wires to it.
Welding cable is not tinned. I spent my life in fresh water and this past year I got quite an education on the evils of salt water. Why start out behind the eight ball with something you know is going to corrode and will have to be maintained constantly?
Without a battery up front, your going to have to run 80 feet of heavy expensive wire.
We sailors tend to cheap out on certain details and then moan and groan when stuff fails to operate properly ( and at the worse possible time).
Alan— On Wed, 10/13/10, Pete Dubler <> wrote:
<.. snip>
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I have a 8D forward which takes care of the windless and the Bow Thuster only
place just aft of the water tank that is where the bow thruster is installed
alsoDon
THISIT
hull #81 sloop________________________________
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Hi Everyone,
I have the same set up as Don has, with a starting battery dedicated to the
bow thruster and the windlass. In a pinch, you can remove it and start your
engine with it if your starting battery fails. As I had to do one night.Jack
XanaduOn Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Don Barber wrote:
Quote:I have a 8D forward which takes care of the windless and the Bow Thuster
only
place just aft of the water tank that is where the bow thruster is
installed
alsoDon
THISIT
hull #81 sloop________________________________
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Dan
This is the guide that I used in my install. Hope that it helps.
http://www.yandina.com/Bank3.htmLinus
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I think there might be a problem with this approach. Consider the situation that you are anchored in a deep anchorage, a bit of wind blowing. The engine is runnng at fast idle, and you are running the windlass a couple minutes between breaks to raise the chain and anchor.
The windlass is drawing close to 150 amps which causes the voltage at the windlass battery to drop to about 11.5 volts. The alternator is maintaining the house bank at close to 14 volts. The combiner sensing the charging voltage, closes the relay to charge the windlass battery.
One principle is always fuse to protect the wire. #10 wire is rated at a maximum current of 60 amps (p. 422, West catalogue) the combiner is rated at 50 amps maximum, and the automotive thermal breakers at 70 amps.
Given the voltage difference, a lot of current is going to flow through the #10 wire. Unless the combiner fails first, the wire will get pretty hot before the thermal breaker opens.
I think that I would install a relay that disables the combiner if the windlass is powered up.
Quent -
Quent,
Sounds complicated. You might want to just run #6 wire to the forward
battery in the first place. Still, I’d recommend motoring up on your anchor
in windy conditions. My Lofrans manual specifically warns against using the
windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor. I often do anyway, but only in
light conditions and incrementally, allowing the boat to gain momentum so
that there is very little load on the windlass.Tor
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I’ve been reading this thread with considerable interest. Generally
speaking, we have some significant house banks – Mine is three 4D AGM
batteries and my engine bank is two group 31’s.I’m all for the simpler the better. House bank through breaker to windlass
with tinned wires. Once you start adding batteries, charging circuits,
relays, switches and what-all, you’re complicating a simple system.If you have someone with a Port Supply card, you can get the wire at West at
a fraction of the price you’d pay for it at list.Also, there’s a reason for using tinned wire. Welding cable is fine inside
a boat where there’s no exposure to salt water, but in an anchor or chain
locker that’s not the case, especially if you have an installation not like
Tor’s where the motor and cables are actually in the upper locker.
Corrosion will attack the connections even if you are very good about
keeping them covered with grease or whatever. Tor’s is a very, very good
one – protecting everything in an almost watertight compartment. We’re not
all looking forward to that kind of a project though…I think using welding cable is being penny wise and pound foolish.
Think of how many points of failure you create and you’ll see what I mean.
I’ve seen combiners and echo chargers fail (and they don’t have an alarm –
your only message will be dead batteries).Design systems for graceful degradation.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Hi Tor-
You are up early. I agree on not using the windlass to motor upwind. I was just trying to make the point that sometimes the windlass gets worked hard. Heavier wire would do it. #6 is safe to 120 amps. The distinction here is between what is efficient, ie 10% or less voltage drop, and what is safe, the max current without cooking the combiner or the wire.
Q -
Bob
I added a battery monitor when I repowered. I used the original volt meter
on the panel for my engine and windlass batteries. I try to make it a habit
of checking their voltage when the system is charging. Not the best test of
battery health yet it lets me know that they are being charged.Linus
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I also installed a battery monitor as part of my charger/inverter upgrade –
still with a maximum of 600 odd amp hours available in a desperate situation
on my house bank (really 300-400 in normal circumstances) I don’t really see
a need for a separate battery and all the extra stuff for the windlass which
runs, on average, less than two minutes per day. It seems a little much and
takes away much needed storage space.Also, with two rodes and anchors in the bow (45 lb cqr, 70 lb bruce, 300
feet of chain and a 50′ chain and rope rode) adding another 80 lbs up there
for so little usage seems antithetical.But I’ve been wrong before. The best thing is to do what makes you
comfortable. I’m about simple and graceful degradation.Bob
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Linus Martinez <>wrote:
Quote:BobI added a battery monitor when I repowered. I used the original volt meter
on the panel for my engine and windlass batteries. I try to make it a habit
of checking their voltage when the system is charging. Not the best test of
battery health yet it lets me know that they are being charged.Linus
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Antithetical?
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
-
Thanks, Alan. Actually, I have a dictionary, too. I was just in awe of how
literary a discussion of batteries could become.🙂
SilverHeels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Quent
The #10 wire has a resistance of about .1 ohm for a 100 ft run and the motor
has a resistance of about the same amount. Although the alternator may keep
the house bank up to about 14v, the resisance in the cable run will prevent
the remote battery from getting enough charge current. The voltage the
motor will see will probably be in the range of 10v to 11v depending on the
type of remote battery used. If you assume the high end here, 11v, there is
a 3v drop across the charge cable. The alternator is supplying 30A to the
remote battery and the cable is consuming 90w. The cable will get pretty
warm, but won’t trip the breaker nor start a fire. The motor will be
running with a low voltage and won’t provide rated power.This kind of installation works, but is a compromise. I’m not sure you even
save money this way. You can buy a 100ft length of 2/0 battery cable for
about $350 and eliminate the remote battery, combiner, and maintenance
associated with that stuff.Rich
Quote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Hi Rich-
Of course, you’re right. A proper application of Ohm’s Law.
However, if the windlass battery is not highly charged, or the windlass is heavily loaded, two things will happen. The voltage at the windlass battery will drop, and as the windlass slows and approaches stalling it’s resistance will drop. Current through the #10 wire will increase, and the wire or combiner will fail before the thermal breaker, at least in theory.
Frankly, if I were going for the windlass battery arrangement, I like Tor’s approach of using #6 wire.
I think there is a lot of merit in keeping things simple as others have suggested. On our boat, we compromised by using a smaller and cheaper windlass. It lifts 60# anchor on 5/16″ chain faster than a 64 year old with a manual windlass and is happy with relatively light power cable.
My only real problem is getting the Manson monster to come back up over the roller. Anyone solved that problem?
Quent -
“My only real problem is getting the Manson monster to come back up over the
roller. Anyone solved that problem?”In a word – No. Since I have a manual windlass (keeps me young, but
crippled) I am at the bow when the anchor arrives at the roller, and I just
lift it up until the shank is on the roller and then pull back hard. It
helps that I left the bow fitting for the Passerelle in place. I can stand
with one foot on this fitting and lift the anchor straight up.On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 8:24 PM, quent <> wrote:
Hi Rich-
Of course, you’re right. A proper application of Ohm’s Law.
However, if the windlass battery is not highly charged, or the windlass is
heavily loaded, two things will happen. The voltage at the windlass battery
will drop, and as the windlass slows and approaches stalling it’s resistance
will drop. Current through the #10 wire will increase, and the wire or
combiner will fail before the thermal breaker, at least in theory.
Frankly, if I were going for the windlass battery arrangement, I like Tor’s
approach of using #6 wire.
I think there is a lot of merit in keeping things simple as others have
suggested. On our boat, we compromised by using a smaller and cheaper
windlass. It lifts 60# anchor on 5/16″ chain faster than a 64 year old with
a manual windlass and is happy with relatively light power cable.
My only real problem is getting the Manson monster to come back up over the
roller. Anyone solved that problem?
Quent_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Jeez, I thought I was the only one with that problem – I guess not. I
thought my windlass was just not the right height and not led correctly.I guess not.
There are tilting anchor rollers. That might be the best solution to the
problem.Bob
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 8:47 PM, John Stevenson <>wrote:
“My only real problem is getting the Manson monster to come back up over
the
roller. Anyone solved that problem?”In a word – No. Since I have a manual windlass (keeps me young, but
crippled) I am at the bow when the anchor arrives at the roller, and I just
lift it up until the shank is on the roller and then pull back hard. It
helps that I left the bow fitting for the Passerelle in place. I can stand
with one foot on this fitting and lift the anchor straight up.On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 8:24 PM, quent <> wrote:
Hi Rich-
Of course, you’re right. A proper application of Ohm’s Law.
However, if the windlass battery is not highly charged, or the windlassis
heavily loaded, two things will happen. The voltage at the windlass
battery
will drop, and as the windlass slows and approaches stalling it’s
resistance
will drop. Current through the #10 wire will increase, and the wire or
combiner will fail before the thermal breaker, at least in theory.
Frankly, if I were going for the windlass battery arrangement, I likeTor’s
approach of using #6 wire.
I think there is a lot of merit in keeping things simple as others have
suggested. On our boat, we compromised by using a smaller and cheaper
windlass. It lifts 60# anchor on 5/16″ chain faster than a 64 year oldwith
a manual windlass and is happy with relatively light power cable.
My only real problem is getting the Manson monster to come back up overthe
roller. Anyone solved that problem?
Quent_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
-
What I didn’t notice anywhere was mention of over-current protection, cable size based on load and distance and service disconnect. These are things a surveyor quickly picks up on and rapidly diminish the sale price of a vessel as these issues are usually noted as ‘should be corrected’ and get passed onto insurance companies. Clues like this will have him look to find out if in fact welding cable which isn’t USGC approved. Not trying to get on a soap box but doing it right isn’t that much more difficult and is probably less expensive in the long run.
Chuck
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.