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I looked into electric propulsion 5 years ago for a boat I was thinking
of building, shortly before I bought Silverheels. Researched it online a
bit, met with an electric engine developer/manufacturer on the west
coast of Florida, and concluded at that time that they weren’t quite
ready for this application. Expensive, too. Still, I’ve always liked the
idea. Sounds like maybe they’ve worked out the bugs.From whom are you getting quotes, Dan? Got a URL for what you’re
considering?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Aloha Tor: The company I’m talking with now is at electricyacht.com. They’ve proposed a complete package that consists of the motor, mounts, couplings, etc. for $7,500. The plan also calls for $3,900 of AGM batteries. This would drive a 424 (based on their model and our boat specs) at 3.5 knots for 25 NM or 5 knots at 11 NM before charging is necessary. There is always great wind here in the Sandwich Isles, so this is certainly enough to meet my needs.
They are also developing a diesel genset with raw/fresh cooling that would be an extra (but I think important) addition for unlimited cruising. Of course, solar and using the prop as a log will also help out.
The bennies are easy to see: 50,000 maintenance free running hours on the motor; no sound; no fuel smells/exhaust; and no fuel costs (outside of the genset).
I’m game as replacement nears.
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Ko Olina, O’ahu -
Thanks, Dan. With a relatively new Yanmar diesel in my boat I’m not
likely to change any time soon, but I like the idea of electric and will
be very interested to learn how it works out for you in your 424.
Conditions seem favorable for electric motoring in Hawaii, where you can
count on steady breezes for sailing most of the time. But for more
global blue water cruising in the modern sense we want the ability to
motor hundreds of miles, ideally at 6 knots in a 42′ boat. What I’d love
to find out is whether re-charging batteries using solar, wind and (as
you noted, the important) diesel generator to power an electric motor is
now practical. Thanks for keeping up posted if/when you make the change.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I have been researching various electric drive systems for a couple of years and have to agree with Tor. For serious cruising I want at least 300 nm range plus enough reserve power to get me out of a jam if I need it.
The range requirement is achievable but will require a diesel genset, either direct DC or AC with a DC converter. However, without the genset to reach even 100-200 nm range under power would require enough batteries to replace all the ballast in the boat. Solar and wind, even at max, are not enough for continuous motoring except at very low speed.
Power is another thing. Electricyacht.com their biggest system is rated as equivalent to 23-30 HP engine, 18 continuous at the shaft. This is typical of most systems I have found.
Now you do lose a good bit in parasitic loads with a diesel, water pumps, alternator, transmission, etc but most estimates I see range 10-20% so a W58 would give at least 46 useable HP. With my original W58 I feel just a bit underpowered already, so to go with an equivalent electric of half that doesn’t seem right for my cruising plans.
Granted 99% of the time, motoring will be to leave the dock or make a few miles when the wind dies but there are those time when you need the power to punch into a head sea and wind or against a current in a tight channel where the extra HP could be critical.
Then there’s the bottom line. The 30 HP electricyacht system is equivalent to about 20 KW which is a big, expensive generator. Even going with a system with less HP than my W58, after adding the genset I would end up with double or triple the cost of a complete repower with diesel engine and transmission.
I love the idea but, for me, it is not yet ready for prime time but I’m hoping.
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There is no right or wrong here. To accept the current shortcomings of
electric proplusion, you only have to start at the other end of the
spectrum, i.e., with a pure sailboat. Back in the day that’s all there
was. Then came auxilliary engines meant to assist in tight
circumstances. Remember how comparitively small they used to be? Their
function was essentially to move the boat around in harbor, not to power
through anything and everything, 24/7. Today we cruise in, if not
motor-sailers, then sailer-motorers. We rely on our engines. But that’s
just a state of mind. You can cruise without. The Pardy’s did; so did
many others not so long ago (including me for a few years aboard my
engineless Ketch Autant). Starting from that point, from a plain
sailboat, a 25-30 hp auxilliary propulsion system becomes a terrific
asset. It’s a matter of perspective, and of what you seek from sailing.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Again I agree. Not saying electric is right or wrong in general, just not right for my plans and style of cruising. There are places I want to go that you can’t go without strong power and range, like the rivers and canals of Europe. Also would prefer to motor through a calm than spend spend an extra day or three waiting for the wind.
Cruised a bit without an engine myself. Boat had one but I couldn’t afford the fuel so sailed everywhere. Quite doable and good for skills building but limits some of your options.
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There is or was a company named Nanosolar that was going to make (or had
taken money to make) thin, flexible, large scale solar films – much like the
films that are now laminated in sails. I contacted them about their product
(in development) mentioning the application – imagine, if you will, your
sails with solar panels laminated to each side! Think of the area and
power!They were disinclined to agree – they wanted to do entire buildings or
Christo artworks. Feh! They lost a huge market.Bob
On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:58 PM, skipmac wrote:
Again I agree. Not saying electric is right or wrong in general, just not
right for my plans and style of cruising. There are places I want to go
that you can’t go without strong power and range, like the rivers and canals
of Europe. Also would prefer to motor through a calm than spend spend an
extra day or three waiting for the wind.Cruised a bit without an engine myself. Boat had one but I couldn’t
afford the fuel so sailed everywhere. Quite doable and good for skills
building but limits some of your options._______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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What we need here is to find a diesel Prius and take it apart…
On 10/14/2011 7:33 PM, skipmac wrote:
I have been researching various electric drive systems for a couple of years and have to agree with Tor. For serious cruising I want at least 300 nm range plus enough reserve power to get me out of a jam if I need it.
The range requirement is achievable but will require a diesel genset, either direct DC or AC with a DC converter. However, without the genset to reach even 100-200 nm range under power would require enough batteries to replace all the ballast in the boat. Solar and wind, even at max, are not enough for continuous motoring except at very low speed.
Power is another thing. Electricyacht.com their biggest system is rated as equivalent to 23-30 HP engine, 18 continuous at the shaft. This is typical of most systems I have found.
Now you do lose a good bit in parasitic loads with a diesel, water pumps, alternator, transmission, etc but most estimates I see range 10-20% so a W58 would give at least 46 useable HP. With my original W58 I feel just a bit underpowered already, so to go with an equivalent electric of half that doesn’t seem right for my cruising plans.
Granted 99% of the time, motoring will be to leave the dock or make a few miles when the wind dies but there are those time when you need the power to punch into a head sea and wind or against a current in a tight channel where the extra HP could be critical.
Then there’s the bottom line. The 30 HP electricyacht system is equivalent to about 20 KW which is a big, expensive generator. Even going with a system with less HP than my W58, after adding the genset I would end up with double or triple the cost of a complete repower with diesel engine and transmission.
I love the idea but, for me, it is not yet ready for prime time but I’m hoping.
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According to the calculations done when I was researching a new engine,
accounting for transmission/v-drive losses, etc., it takes about 36 HP
going into the velvet drive to achieve hull speed of a 424.And there are between 55 and 74 million bubbles in the average bottle of
champagne (sparkling wine)… a fact you will probably get more utility
out of at New Year’s Eve parties…Pete
On 10/14/2011 8:53 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:There is no right or wrong here. To accept the current shortcomings of
electric proplusion, you only have to start at the other end of the
spectrum, i.e., with a pure sailboat. Back in the day that’s all there
was. Then came auxilliary engines meant to assist in tight
circumstances. Remember how comparitively small they used to be? Their
function was essentially to move the boat around in harbor, not to power
through anything and everything, 24/7. Today we cruise in, if not
motor-sailers, then sailer-motorers. We rely on our engines. But that’s
just a state of mind. You can cruise without. The Pardy’s did; so did
many others not so long ago (including me for a few years aboard my
engineless Ketch Autant). Starting from that point, from a plain
sailboat, a 25-30 hp auxilliary propulsion system becomes a terrific
asset. It’s a matter of perspective, and of what you seek from sailing.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Original Message
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Nigel Calder is doing a lot of research into this. When I last heard him
speak 2 (maybe 3) years ago at the Seattle Boat Show he was saying with
current technology using a generator and batteries to drive an electric
engine didn’t add-up (i.e., it was less efficient). Now he said if you add
in some solar, or wind generators, and for sailboats using the spinning prop
to generate then its possible, but he didn’t have a lot of data on that. He
did have data on the pure generator battery solution though and he said
diesels still win in that solution.That of course was a pure power and efficiency comparison, it says nothing
about the joy of quietness!I’m looking forward to his future publications in this area.
-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlayaOn Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 7:25 AM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Quote:According to the calculations done when I was researching a new engine,
accounting for transmission/v-drive losses, etc., it takes about 36 HP going
into the velvet drive to achieve hull speed of a 424.And there are between 55 and 74 million bubbles in the average bottle of
champagne (sparkling wine)… a fact you will probably get more utility out
of at New Year’s Eve parties…Pete
On 10/14/2011 8:53 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:There is no right or wrong here. To accept the current shortcomings of
electric proplusion, you only have to start at the other end of the
spectrum, i.e., with a pure sailboat. Back in the day that’s all there
was. Then came auxilliary engines meant to assist in tight
circumstances. Remember how comparitively small they used to be? Their
function was essentially to move the boat around in harbor, not to power
through anything and everything, 24/7. Today we cruise in, if not
motor-sailers, then sailer-motorers. We rely on our engines. But that’s
just a state of mind. You can cruise without. The Pardy’s did; so did
many others not so long ago (including me for a few years aboard my
engineless Ketch Autant). Starting from that point, from a plain
sailboat, a 25-30 hp auxilliary propulsion system becomes a terrific
asset. It’s a matter of perspective, and of what you seek from sailing.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
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