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I agree, Bob, that simpler is better, especially underwater. Still, there is a long track record of trouble-free performance from Max-Props when they’re properly maintained, i.e., disassembled and serviced annually during haul-out. I had one on my last cruising boat and enjoyed 30k n. miles of flawless performance from it over 6 years. Would’ve put one on this boat except for budgetary issues. They’re awfully expensive, and there are other doo-dads taking priority.
But the main point, of course, is that we’re happy campers.
🙂
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I agree with you, too, Tor, in that many people have had great success with MaxProps and the like. You could sail your entire life with one with no problems assuming you haul out and maintain every year.
If my transmission was in jeopardy from the spinning prop, I'd definitely go with a prop that feathers or folds or sucks into itself or whatever. From my perspective, though, it's energy that's there for the tapping. It could solve so many problems – and allow me to run the watermaker under sail. And the refrigerator. And the stereo. And the washer -dryer, microwave, and 48″ flat screen TV. No, just kidding about the TV.
Really, in the microcosm of a boat at sea exists the same underlying issues that affect all of us – no matter what society we live in, from the worst parts of Africa to the best parts of, I don't know, Dubai. We all have to manage resources – and all resources can be related to energy. The engine, generator, electrical system, wind all are providers of energy. For the 1/2kt or so the spinning prop takes, it could provide 30A of power at a leisurely 5 kts. That's a lot of power.
True, at anchor it's not so terribly useful (unless you anchor in the Bay of Fundy), but there are the solar panels for that.
And in 30k of sailing (I sure hope I can come somewhere near that, my friend!) I hope to have ice, water, cold beer for friends, and all the safety stuff I need to keep me going.
So that's my thinking in spinning props.
Bob
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 6:08 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I agree, Bob, that simpler is better, especially underwater. Still, there is a long track record of trouble-free performance from Max-Props when they're properly maintained, i.e., disassembled and serviced annually during haul-out. I had one on my last cruising boat and enjoyed 30k n. miles of flawless performance from it over 6 years. Would've put one on this boat except for budgetary issues. They're awfully expensive, and there are other doo-dads taking priority.But the main point, of course, is that we're happy campers.
🙂
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Smart. That’s why I like running stuff by an engineer. I have a Paragon transmission, which I gather cannot be allowed to freewheel. Too bad. Otherwise, I’d put a generator or an alternator on the shaft, too.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I'm here for ya, buddy! Of the three transmissions Pearson used, the Paragon is the only one that can't freewheel, but it's also able to be locked. The Hurth will freewheel in neutral just fine and so will the Velvet Drive. Ah, well. Lock 'er up! The only caveat for the Velvet drive is to not leave it in reverse.
Bob
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Smart. That's why I like running stuff by an engineer. I have a Paragon transmission, which I gather cannot be allowed to freewheel. Too bad. Otherwise, I'd put a generator or an alternator on the shaft, too.Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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The Paragon tranny on my W60 was one of the reasons I went with a Maxprop (the other reasons was power in reverse). If I stopped the engine with the Paragon in gear, the Maxprop would featther. Then I just switched to neutral and no free-wheeling. That is not an option with the VD so the Maxprop free-wheels under sail as long as speed > 4 kts. Although the VD doesn't have problem with free-wheeling, I think the
V-Drive does. I can stop the free-wheeling by temporarily clamping the prop shaft with a vice-grips. That will cause the Maxprop to feather and the free-wheeling is no more. It's just a pain to pull up the aft floor board hatch when I shut down the engine. Unless I come up with a better solution, that will only happen for long passages (>24 hours).John
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I'm here for ya, buddy! Of the three transmissions Pearson used, the Paragon is the only one that can't freewheel, but it's also able to be locked. The Hurth will freewheel in neutral just fine and so will the Velvet Drive. Ah, well. Lock 'er up! The only caveat for the Velvet drive is to not leave it in reverse.Bob
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Smart. That's why I like running stuff by an engineer. I have a Paragon transmission, which I gather cannot be allowed to freewheel. Too bad. Otherwise, I'd put a generator or an alternator on the shaft, too.Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Uhhh. DON’T freewheel the Paragon?But it spins both in gear or in neutral after 4 kn. I suppose I can shaft brake, but what was mfg. thinking owners were going to do?
-Adam Silverstein-iPhone (“trust everyone but cut the cards”)
On Oct 3, 2008, at 7:13 PM, “John Stevenson” < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:The Paragon tranny on my W60 was one of the reasons I went with a Maxprop (the other reasons was power in reverse). If I stopped the engine with the Paragon in gear, the Maxprop would featther. Then I just switched to neutral and no free-wheeling. That is not an option with the VD so the Maxprop free-wheels under sail as long as speed > 4 kts. Although the VD doesn’t have problem with free-wheeling, I think the
V-Drive does. I can stop the free-wheeling by temporarily clamping the prop shaft with a vice-grips. That will cause the Maxprop to feather and the free-wheeling is no more. It’s just a pain to pull up the aft floor board hatch when I shut down the engine. Unless I come up with a better solution, that will only happen for long passages (>24 hours).John
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Robert Fine <()> wrote:
Quote:I’m here for ya, buddy! Of the three transmissions Pearson used, the Paragon is the only one that can’t freewheel, but it’s also able to be locked. The Hurth will freewheel in neutral just fine and so will the Velvet Drive. Ah, well. Lock ‘er up! The only caveat for the Velvet drive is to not leave it in reverse.Bob
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Silver Heels <()> wrote:
Quote:Smart. That’s why I like running stuff by an engineer. I have a Paragon transmission, which I gather cannot be allowed to freewheel. Too bad. Otherwise, I’d put a generator or an alternator on the shaft, too.Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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John,
Seems like the “better solution” you seek might be a shaft lock or brake, no?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor,
I really don't want to go to a shaft brake – one more complicated piece of hardware. If I have to I'll stick with a vise-grip.
Actually I was surprised by the information on the trannies. I didn't think free-wheeling was a problem for the Paragon – just the V-Drive. Of course when I purchased Sarah it and the Paragon/V-drive had been in operation with a free-wheeling fixed prop for over 22 years. So this may just be one of those boatyard legends.With the Maxprop I could easily stop free-wheeling once the blades feathered. When I decided to go with the VD on the new Yanmar I didn't think about this issue, not realizing the VD is a pump not a clutch. Initially I was told the VD can be destroyed by free-wheeling – contrary to the VD document that Patrick provided. I'm still waiting on some definitive answers to the questions I've asked of the appropriate tech reps.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:John,Seems like the “better solution” you seek might be a shaft lock or brake, no?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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When I bought Silver Heels her Paragon/Walter combo had also presumably been freewheeling – for 30 years! I suppose that says something. I put in a new Yanmar, but kept the original transmission & V-drive. The day I sea-trailed the new engine the transmission gave up the ghost. The guy who subsequently re-built it for me, an old pro who has specialized in Paragon trannies for decades, said it had probably been rammed between forward and reverse on occasion without pausing to let the RPM’s drop down in neutral (not by me!), and that this and general old age were the probable causes of the failure. I’m going to call him today or Monday and ask him about freewheeling. If anyone would know the facts, it is he.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I see no reason that freewheeling would damage the V-drive. Even the RV-26, which has a pressure oil pump should be OK. I would expect that the rattle from the freewheeling drive train would be an annoyance. It would drive me nuts. The vice-grip solution is simple and I’m sure effective, but what happens if you forget to remove the darn thing or have an emergency that doesn’t give time to remove it?
There has been some research into which has less drag, a freewheeling prop or a locked prop. I think the jury is still out. Either would provide more drag than a feathering or folding prop. I’ve heard some discussion about using the freewheeling propeller to drive a battery charger. I wonder if extracting power from the configuration would increase drag. I suspect there is no free lunch. This probably isn’t an issue if your cruising grounds have a consistent breeze and you rarely go upwind.
Many feathering props will still freewheel. It must have something to do with the geometry of the blades. Folding props of course won’t freewheel. Either of the last two types will be inherently less reliable than a fixed prop. I suspect that both choices would be more reliable than a fixed prop that is freewheeling however. IMHO, you need a brake if you have a fixed prop. Here’s a link to shaftLock. Their web site is pretty crude.
http://www.shaftlok.comI have a folding 3-blade propeller. It’s pretty simple in design and works very well. No brake needed.
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Rich Carter
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Rich,
I had not planned to leave the vice-grips on the drive shaft, just use it to hold it in place for a few seconds so the Maxprop would feather. In the past, once the prop is feathered it has not required any pressure on the shaft to prevent free-wheeling. All that was necessary to feather the prop was shutting down the engine in gear. That provided enough resistance on the shaft rotation to feather the prop. I then shifted to neutral while sailing and the prop remained feathered with no free-wheeling. So I hope the brief use of the vice-grips will be the same as shuting down the engine in grear. It will be a pain to have to lift up the floor board hatch whenever shutting down the engine.That said I haven't actually tried this approach as I've done so little sailing this year. If the answer from the VD factory rep comes back consistent with the manual – no problem with free-wheeling – then the only real problem would be the noise and vibration under sail. In that case I would only use the vice-grips when sailing off-shore. I'll live with the free-wheeling on sails of less than 24 hours.
John
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:26 AM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I see no reason that freewheeling would damage the V-drive. Even the RV-26, which has a pressure oil pump should be OK. I would expect that the rattle from the freewheeling drive train would be an annoyance. It would drive me nuts. The vice-grip solution is simple and I'm sure effective, but what happens if you forget to remove the darn thing or have an emergency that doesn't give time to remove it?There has been some research into which has less drag, a freewheeling prop or a locked prop. I think the jury is still out. Either would provide more drag than a feathering or folding prop. I've heard some discussion about using the freewheeling propeller to drive a battery charger. I wonder if extracting power from the configuration would increase drag. I suspect there is no free lunch. This probably isn't an issue if your cruising grounds have a consistent breeze and you rarely go upwind.
Many feathering props will still freewheel. It must have something to do with the geometry of the blades. Folding props of course won't freewheel. Either of the last two types will be inherently less reliable than a fixed prop. I suspect that both choices would be more reliable than a fixed prop that is freewheeling however. IMHO, you need a brake if you have a fixed prop. Here's a link to shaftLock. Their web site is pretty crude.
http://www.shaftlok.comI have a folding 3-blade propeller. It's pretty simple in design and works very well. No brake needed.
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Rich Carter
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For those interested in feathering prompts, here is a recent discussion on kiwiprops, which look attractive at $1300. However, I am not sure how happy I would be with the drop in motoring performance. I guess it depends on how much sailing you do in light air versus motoring.
http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?p=41600#41600
Has anyone tried one of these on a 424.
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When I was looking into feathering props I believe I discovered they don't have a prop for engines with HP > 55…
Rick
Eclipse #73On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Paul Lefebvre < ([email][/email])> wrote:
For those interested in feathering prompts, here is a recent discussion on kiwiprops, which look attractive at $1300. However, I am not sure how happy I would be with the drop in motoring performance. I guess it depends on how much sailing you do in light air versus motoring.
http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?p=41600#41600
Has anyone tried one of these on a 424.
Paul Lefebvre
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