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Contrary to popular belief, the Pearson 424 is not a tug. Last week at the Dauphin Island race 2014, two 424s performed quite well in their fleet. Adam on OnCall placed 2nd in his fleet racing PHRF and I placed first in my fleet racing Portsmouth. Most of the race, 18 miles, was to windward and OneEighty (hull 54) was pointing very well once the winds got up to 8-14 knots. I was able to point higher than a Catalina 36, an irwin 32 and a Freedom 40 that I was running with and I think I was able to point so high because of my full battened main and mizzen and with a flat (not stretched out) 135 genoa. I’m convinced that modern sails on our boats make them perform better than Bill Shaw could imagine. Six other Pearsons, non 424s placed in the Portsmouth class and 5 placed in PHRF.
It was god to see our old girls do so well. -
I agree with your assessment, in my division during 6 Harvest Moon races from Galveston to Port Aransas, Whiffler came in first once, second 4 times, and third once. With 15+ knots of wind, the 454 is a respectable competitor.
Steve
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I’m delighted to hear the 424’s are performing so well
against other designs. I like Silverheels’ overall
characteristics. She’s a comfortable Caribbean cruiser,
but an indifferent sailor to windward. This in spite of
1-year-old sails, including fully battened main &
mizzen, which I believe I do know how to trim properly.
It’s all she can do to tack in 110° plus 5° leeway for
120° made good (i.e., 60° COG either side of the wind).
Pinching higher slows her down too much. I’m having the
genoa re-cut now – the loft screwed up the leech shape.
Perhaps that will improve things.How do these angles compare to your 424’s performance?
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Whiffler’s sails are not new, but both the main and mizzen are both with full battens. With the 150 Genoa I typically can make good to windward +/-60 deg relative. Pulling in tighter slows the boat. Someday, if I get new sails, I will be interested if I can get tighter to the wind.
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Tor, I feel like I was sailing 45 degrees off the wind tacking on 90. I know that sounds unreal but we were out-sailing some pointing type boats. My old Pearson 323 never got close to that. Yes, I did slow down the more I pinched, but I kept looking for that happy medium. The age old question still persists: is it better to lay off the line for more speed or go for fewer tacks? I’m not that good a tactition to know the answer. I just got lucky.
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I know less about racing than the proverbial tortoise,
Charlie, but I believe the magic balance you’re looking
for is (or used to be) called VMG, velocity made good.
I saw it once on an instrument gauge on a boat I
delivered a million years ago.I’ve always considered pointing 45° to the true wind,
i.e., tacking in 90°, to be about average for a
cruising-type sailboat in moderate conditions. Ditto
for making an additional 5° leeway, so that the TMG
(Tack Made Good – I just made that up) is 100°. That’s
a bit better than Silverheels manages if I want to keep
her speed up, and I feel like she should be pointing
better – higher – than she does. I’d be interested to
know how others fare in that regard.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Not only are you slowing down by pinching, there’s a heck of a lot more leeway on that boat. also the boat is very slow to tack so the less tacks the better.
Unless of course you got one hell of a wind then All bets are off.Sent from my iPhone
On May 8, 2014, at 5:57 PM, “cstewart” wrote:
Tor, I feel like I was sailing 45 degrees off the wind tacking on 90. I know that sounds unreal but we were out-sailing some pointing type boats. My old Pearson 323 never got close to that. Yes, I did slow down the more I pinched, but I kept looking for that happy medium. The age old question still persists: is it better to lay off the line for more speed or go for fewer tacks? I’m not that good a tactition to know the answer. I just got lucky.
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
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BlackSheep makes 90 deg across the bottom on a tack, a bit better if there’s enough wind to heel her over. When a mark is precisely 90 degrees off my beam, I can tack over and clear it at best VMG. I usually give one or two extra boat lengths before tacking for maneuvering room around the mark.
It’s taken me many years and several boat units to get this performance. When I first started racing, I’d be dogmeat if someone came in on my leeward rail. I’d have to tack over to keep from being pinched up. Now the rest of the boats stay out of my lee. There’s no wind there and they can’t out point me.
A good suit of sails helps as does proper sail trim. The biggest improvement came with a backstay adjuster. You just can’t get enough tension in the headstay to pull the belly out of the headsail without it. If you try to tighten the turnbuckles enough to trim the sails, you’ll gall the treads. You need about 3000 lbs in 10kts of wind (true), more if it picks up.
I can get a bit of bend in the mast but it’s not much. I adjust the traveler to put the boom about amidship and tension the clew to pull as much belly out of the main as possible. I don’t use a cunningham but I’m considering it.
If you have the ketch model, there is little that can be done to tension the forestay. If someone figures out a method, I’m sure that owners would be interested to hear. If you have a sloop or cutter, a hydrolic backstay tensioner is suggested. The transom chainplate and transom need reinforcement however.
http://www.richardcarter.net/boat/TransomChainPlate/Rich
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Excellent info, Rich. Thanks.
I changed the original split main backstay to a double backstay when I re-rigged the boat, but still don’t see a way to tension it to the extent you suggest. Sounds like I’ll just have to accept tacking in 100° with my ketch rig.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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You can tension the split backstay with a block running on each side
connected together with a third block with a becket on a loop of dyneema or
amsteel line. Then you have a block down on one side of the split so that
when you tension the line it actually squeezes the backstays together.But I’d be leery of putting too much tension on it.
Bob
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 4:21 PM, wrote:
Quote:Tor
I can probably outpoint you but the ketch looks cooler. The sloop kind of
looks funny with the short rig placed up forward.Rich
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Bob,
You wrote, “use a loop of amsteel to link all three blocks together…” What are you describing here? Is this a way to tension split or double backstays? Can you sketch the general idea of how it assembles? If there’s a way to get Silverheels to point 10° higher I’d like to employ it.
Thanks,
Tor
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Bob et al,
Sounds like a neat idea. My only concern would be that you would be
changing the direction of load from the stays to the chainplates from
the design. Do you think that that would be a problem?Dave
On 5/10/14, 7:32 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
Quote:This is just a quick drawing, but you’ll get the idea.Bob
On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 7:46 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Bob,You wrote, “use a loop of amsteel to link all three blocks together…” What
are you describing here? Is this a way to tension split or double
backstays? Can you sketch the general idea of how it assembles? If there’s
a way to get Silverheels to point 10° higher I’d like to employ it.Thanks,
Tor
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Lots of boats use a device to bend the mast. On a 424 I doubt your going to bend mast too much. More like just tension the forestay. Pulling the whole rig back.
AlanSent from my iPhone
Quote:On May 10, 2014, at 9:23 AM, dave jones wrote:Bob et al,
Sounds like a neat idea. My only concern would be that you would be changing the direction of load from the stays to the chainplates from the design. Do you think that that would be a problem?
Dave
Quote:On 5/10/14, 7:32 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
This is just a quick drawing, but you’ll get the idea.Bob
Quote:On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 7:46 AM, Silverheels wrote:Bob,
You wrote, “use a loop of amsteel to link all three blocks together…” What
are you describing here? Is this a way to tension split or double
backstays? Can you sketch the general idea of how it assembles? If there’s
a way to get Silverheels to point 10° higher I’d like to employ it.Thanks,
Tor
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Regarding backstay adjuster, I have tried to figure a way to do that with the Ketch rig. I guess you could put two pulleys on the split backstay and when you put tension on them, it would tend to rake the main mast some. Of course the mizzen and main mast are attached at the top (whatever that thing is called) so the mizzen would be affected. I believe it would help pointing if you moved it just ever so slightly enough to take the slack out of the forestay/genoa. I do move the main sheet traveler to windward all the way to line up with the right side of the companionway. Then I put a cheater block on the mizzen sheet to move it to windward also. That seems to help. You can then let the sheets out a tad to keep it from pinching, yet still keep your sails full. When my sloopy friends ask if the mizzen does any good I tell them it is like having a Catalina 22 behind me pushing.
Charlie -
It’s called a triatic stay. I forgot about that…
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On May 13, 2014 3:46 PM, “cstewart” wrote:Regarding backstay adjuster, I have tried to figure a way to do that with
the Ketch rig. I guess you could put two pulleys on the split backstay and
when you put tension on them, it would tend to rake the main mast some. Of
course the mizzen and main mast are attached at the top (whatever that
thing is called) so the mizzen would be affected. I believe it would help
pointing if you moved it just ever so slightly enough to take the slack out
of the forestay/genoa. I do move the main sheet traveler to windward all
the way to line up with the right side of the companionway. Then I put a
cheater block on the mizzen sheet to move it to windward also. That seems
to help. You can then let the sheets out a tad to keep it from pinching,
yet still keep your sails full. When my sloopy friends ask if the mizzen
does any good I tell them it is like having a Catalina 22 behind me pushing.
Charlie
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose
sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
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