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I’ll outline my plan of attack as a source of more info. I’ll share how
things were when I bought the boat and my plans.*When I bought the boat*
The Antenna tuner ground was attached to the bonding system via the port
cockpit drain through hull.The Antenna lead wire was attached to the port backstay chainplate. This
chainplate was detached from the bonding system. There were no isolators in
the back stay and the starboard leg was attached to the bonding system. The
PO says the thing worked great. I never heard anything on this setup.*My Plan Moving Forward*
I plan to hook the antenna tuner ground to the bonding system.My new backstay has isolators in the upper leg above the split in the
backstay. This will be fed with COAX. This is not exactly what I wanted.
What I wanted was to isolate one leg AND the upper section. My rigger was a
little pushy on that so I went with their judgement and experience. We’ll
see how that works out.If that does not get me a great signal, I plan to line the lazarettes with
copper mesh, glass it in and use that as the antenna ground. But I’m hoping
to not have to do that.-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comOn Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Silver Heels <> wrote:
Quote:Rich,I have run copper strap from my automatic antenna tuner as a counterpoise
for my SSB/HAM installation. I’ve already connected the strap to 3 bronze
thru-hulls, as per Gordon West’s recommendation. Actually, he says 1 or 2
thru-hull connections are enough, and claims this is all that’s needed.
However, since I had plenty of copper strap handy I continued the run
forward through the upper bilge to the area of the mainmast step. Numerous
radio-wise folks, including some in this 424 group and also my pretty sharp
marine electrician neighbor, feel that connecting the strap to the lead keel
ballast, even though it is internal rather than external, will significantly
increase the power of the counterpoise. The connection is made via a lag
bolt passed through the strap, into and through the fiberglass covering the
ballast and into the lead.Personally, I pretend no knowledge of these esoteric mysteries. So when I
get 7 out of 10 seemingly knowledgeable opinions in agreement on a point of
procedure, I tend to follow that advice. I’m certain some of our 424 owners
have lagged their counterpoise strap into the lead ballast. I’m hoping one
of more of them will tell me where exactly they drilled and how far through
the fiberglass they had to go to reach the lead.Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Original Message
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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
“This will be fed with COAX”
I think most experts will agree that the tuner to ant. connection should be fed with GTO-15 High Tension wire. That wire can be bought at any neon sign shop or any HAM radio outlet.
It should be kept as short as possible as it is included in the antenna length calculations.alan
— On Wed, 4/28/10, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters <> wrote:
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When I re-rigged my boat, I replaced the original Y-backstay, which never
did make sense to me, with a split the backstay. So I’ve got two separate
wires running all the way to the masthead. Figured two’s better than one,
and it also moved them farther out of the step way between the cockpit and
the side decks. I put isolators in one of them.Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor,
The only 424 owner I know who has tied his ground plane into the lead in the
keel is Jack Tyler on Whoosh. I don’t know where he attached it, you can
email him at . He is very satisfied with his rig, but I
don’t know how much of that he attributes to the keel.
They should be about 1,000nm out of the Marquesa today. They pick up emails
about once a day.On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Alan <> wrote:
Quote:“This will be fed with COAX”
I think most experts will agree that the tuner to ant. connection should be
fed with GTO-15 High Tension wire. That wire can be bought at any neon sign
shop or any HAM radio outlet.
It should be kept as short as possible as it is included in the antenna
length calculations.alan
— On Wed, 4/28/10, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters <>
wrote:<.. snip>
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Alan you are absolutely correct… NOT COAX…. 😉
-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comOn Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Alan <> wrote:
Quote:“This will be fed with COAX”
I think most experts will agree that the tuner to ant. connection should be
fed with GTO-15 High Tension wire. That wire can be bought at any neon sign
shop or any HAM radio outlet.
It should be kept as short as possible as it is included in the antenna
length calculations.alan
— On Wed, 4/28/10, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters <>
wrote:<.. snip>
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Tor quit telling me better ideas AFTER I spent my money. 😉 I told the
rigger when they dropped off my wire that we might be having a chat about
this backstay antenna down the road. If it doesn’t work as well as I expect
that might be a good route to go.-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comOn Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Silver Heels <> wrote:
Quote:When I re-rigged my boat, I replaced the original Y-backstay, which never
did make sense to me, with a split the backstay. So I’ve got two separate
wires running all the way to the masthead. Figured two’s better than one,
and it also moved them farther out of the step way between the cockpit and
the side decks. I put isolators in one of them.Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
AHA! Jack’s hiding out in the vast Pacific Ocean, is he? Well, maybe I’ll
just follow him out there and find him.Meanwhile, I’ll email him. Thanks, John.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Original Message
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I found the lead… My boat has the copper strip grounding system. It
is tied to the lead by two lag bolts just forward of the deep bilge
(sump) on what I like to call the bilge step.Pete
On 4/28/2010 3:32 PM, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters wrote:
Quote:I’ll outline my plan of attack as a source of more info. I’ll share how
things were when I bought the boat and my plans.*When I bought the boat*
The Antenna tuner ground was attached to the bonding system via the port
cockpit drain through hull.The Antenna lead wire was attached to the port backstay chainplate. This
chainplate was detached from the bonding system. There were no isolators in
the back stay and the starboard leg was attached to the bonding system. The
PO says the thing worked great. I never heard anything on this setup.*My Plan Moving Forward*
I plan to hook the antenna tuner ground to the bonding system.My new backstay has isolators in the upper leg above the split in the
backstay. This will be fed with COAX. This is not exactly what I wanted.
What I wanted was to isolate one leg AND the upper section. My rigger was a
little pushy on that so I went with their judgement and experience. We’ll
see how that works out.If that does not get me a great signal, I plan to line the lazarettes with
copper mesh, glass it in and use that as the antenna ground. But I’m hoping
to not have to do that.-p
—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comOn Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Silver Heels<> wrote:
Quote:Rich,I have run copper strap from my automatic antenna tuner as a counterpoise
for my SSB/HAM installation. I’ve already connected the strap to 3 bronze
thru-hulls, as per Gordon West’s recommendation. Actually, he says 1 or 2
thru-hull connections are enough, and claims this is all that’s needed.
However, since I had plenty of copper strap handy I continued the run
forward through the upper bilge to the area of the mainmast step. Numerous
radio-wise folks, including some in this 424 group and also my pretty sharp
marine electrician neighbor, feel that connecting the strap to the lead keel
ballast, even though it is internal rather than external, will significantly
increase the power of the counterpoise. The connection is made via a lag
bolt passed through the strap, into and through the fiberglass covering the
ballast and into the lead.Personally, I pretend no knowledge of these esoteric mysteries. So when I
get 7 out of 10 seemingly knowledgeable opinions in agreement on a point of
procedure, I tend to follow that advice. I’m certain some of our 424 owners
have lagged their counterpoise strap into the lead ballast. I’m hoping one
of more of them will tell me where exactly they drilled and how far through
the fiberglass they had to go to reach the lead.Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Well done, Pete. I was hoping it could also be reached around the mast step,
but sometimes Muhammad just has to go to the mountain.Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Original Message
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You can omit the insulator at the bottom end of your backstay if you remove the ground. This is dangerous however. Voltages that might appear on the rig at various frequencies can be very high. If someone accidentally touched the backstay while transmitting, it could be fatal. I don’t recommend this approach. In fact, you could omit the top insulator too and create a shunt-fed antenna but this is very difficult to tune over a wide band.
Using the existing bonding system (green ground wires that run between through-hulls) is inadequate. There is no reason that you can’t use this to augment a proper RF ground system. I’m not sure that this is really a counterpoise, but its close enough if we all know what we mean. A counterpoise is normally a set of elevated radials found at the bottom of a vertical antenna. A bunch of copper foil run through the bilge would technically be a counterpoise, but a bronze plate attached to the side of the hull technically isn’t. I have a combination of both.
“An antenna counterpoise is a structure of conductive material most closely associated with ground that may be insulated from or capacitively coupled to the natural ground. It aids in the function of the natural ground, particularly where variations (or limitations) of the characteristics of the natural ground interfere with its proper function. Such structures are usually connected to the terminal of a receiver or source opposite to the antenna terminal.”
Have you folks considered what you’ll do for an antenna if you lose your rig? A lost rig is one of the scenarios under which a sailboat would likely need assistance, but without a rig, most boats lack an antenna.
here’s a possible solution among many.
http://www.buddipole.com/buddistick.htmlA kite with a length of wire is also an option.
Rich
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According to Gordon West, who seems to be widely regarded as an expert in
these matters, “If you make direct contact with the seawater, you may be
able to reduce the amount of ground foil that must be run from your radio
and the automatic tuner. If your through-hulls are metal and are all bonded
with a green wire per ABYC (American Boat & Yacht Council) standards, find a
couple of in-water bronze through-hulls, and run the foil directly to them
for an effective seawater ground. But make sure that bronze through-hull is
already part of your bonding system with a telltale green wire attached to
it and going off to other underwater metals. Never ground to a bronze
through-hull that has been specifically left isolated and ungrounded.”And,
“Your RF ground system (counterpoise) does not actually need to contact the
seawater to be effective. Even though an encapsulate keel doesn’t actually
touch the seawater, it makes a capacitive ground by being next to the
seawater, if you run wide copper foil to it. / You may either double bolt
the foil to an exposed keel bolt, or actually tap directly into the lead
keel with a bolt going through the copper foil and into the lead.”And,
“The automatic antenna tuner performs best with a direct seawater ground
connection. Whether it be through your bonded underwater through-hulls, or
to a dedicated ground plate, the direct connection is one great way to
minimize hours spent in the bilge developing a good-ground system.”Ref: http://www.bootkeyharbor.com/ProductInfo/BoatManuals/WestIntroToSSB.pdf
Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Original Message
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I have never been able to understand why folks use their stays as
antennas considering how expensive the insulators are and how they
create a point of failure.A simple solution I learned from my PO is a length of insulated wire
(like clothes line) run from the top of the main mast down to near one
of the mizzen chain plates. A cheap insulator on each end and a bit of
bungee cord on the bottom end completes the kit. Both ends have loops
with crimped fasteners. A ring terminal on the end of the wire connects
to the feed from the antenna tuner and the connection, made with a
stainless bolt is covered with self sealing coax tape. (
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/COS-1/COAX-SEAL//1.html )It is cheap enough that you can have two… one on each side. (does
not solve the loss of rig problem though, but eliminates one cause: the
insulators)Pete
On 4/29/2010 7:45 AM, wrote:
Quote:You can omit the insulator at the bottom end of your backstay if you remove the ground. This is dangerous however. Voltages that might appear on the rig at various frequencies can be very high. If someone accidentally touched the backstay while transmitting, it could be fatal. I don’t recommend this approach. In fact, you could omit the top insulator too and create a shunt-fed antenna but this is very difficult to tune over a wide band.Using the existing bonding system (green ground wires that run between through-hulls) is inadequate. There is no reason that you can’t use this to augment a proper RF ground system. I’m not sure that this is really a counterpoise, but its close enough if we all know what we mean. A counterpoise is normally a set of elevated radials found at the bottom of a vertical antenna. A bunch of copper foil run through the bilge would technically be a counterpoise, but a bronze plate attached to the side of the hull technically isn’t. I have a combination of both.
“An antenna counterpoise is a structure of conductive material most closely associated with ground that may be insulated from or capacitively coupled to the natural ground. It aids in the function of the natural ground, particularly where variations (or limitations) of the characteristics of the natural ground interfere with its proper function. Such structures are usually connected to the terminal of a receiver or source opposite to the antenna terminal.”
Have you folks considered what you’ll do for an antenna if you lose your rig? A lost rig is one of the scenarios under which a sailboat would likely need assistance, but without a rig, most boats lack an antenna.
here’s a possible solution among many.
http://www.buddipole.com/buddistick.htmlA kite with a length of wire is also an option.
Rich
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Hey,
Guess what?
Not all keels are lead. Mine has to be ferrous because it causes my
fluxgate compass to go nuts. Lead won’t do that.Gordon West also indicates that a modern rig with a modern tuner needs
little more than a wire to a through hull or a dynaplate to provide the
appropriate counterpoise.Since I’m not a HAM yet, all I can say is that on the SSB channels, it works
fine.Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFine
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Pete,
I considered this when I replaced my whip antenna last year. I wanted something that wouldn’t get in the way though. Having another wire running from the masthead to deck is just something else to get in the way.Another antenna that my brother-in-law recommends is a dipole with one end hoisted up to the masthead and the other end dragged in the water with a half-empty beverage bottle as a weight (not to be confused with a Beverage antenna). This only works when you’re under way, but provides a decent length antenna so it tunes up on the lower bands. No grounds in the bilge are needed either.
Rich
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The single wire antenna I described runs outside of the mainsail
triangle and does not interfere with the mizzen, so it is not in the way.Also have a hoistable folded dipole on board for my second ham radio,
and ICOM IC-735, which is a great radio for voice work. This foldable
is good when at anchor. The ends go fore and aft and the center is
hoisted to the head of the main mast. Coax goes up to the center of the
antenna.Pete
On 4/29/2010 1:02 PM, wrote:
Quote:Pete,
I considered this when I replaced my whip antenna last year. I wanted something that wouldn’t get in the way though. Having another wire running from the masthead to deck is just something else to get in the way.Another antenna that my brother-in-law recommends is a dipole with one end hoisted up to the masthead and the other end dragged in the water with a half-empty beverage bottle as a weight (not to be confused with a Beverage antenna). This only works when you’re under way, but provides a decent length antenna so it tunes up on the lower bands. No grounds in the bilge are needed either.
Rich
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Hey Bob,
Actually, Gordon West writes that wire, even very thick wire, is not
desirable for counterpoise runs and connections. He wrote, “Round wires
create inductive reactance at radio frequencies, and are not effective as a
good grounding conveyance. Use 2 or 3 inch wide, 3 mil copper foil
(available at most marine electronic stores) to achieve a good seawater
ground.” He even advises, “Do not reduce the size of the foil as you
approach the tuner or the radio (with your copper foil strap). Also, do not
convert the foil to wire as you approach the tuner or the radio. Fold the
foil back on itself and drill a hole for the mounting stud.”He apparently feels so strongly about this that he repeats it in the same
chapter: “Again, I would like to mention that running wire – even battery
cable – is not effective as an RF ground (counterpoise) at radio
frequencies. Although, wire looks like a good DC ground, it looks invisible
at most radio frequencies. Use foil, and only foil. Even aluminum foil will
work in a pinch. You can even use aluminum air conditioning foil with sticky
on the back as counterpoise. Wires won’t work so forget about using them.”Than again, what you have works so maybe Mr. West is mistaken.
Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
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I seem to remember, Tor, reading his exposition on the whole thing that a
short wire is ok – mine is less than three feet. But I do have foil and
three inch wide braided wire which is also supposed to be ok.Since I don’t use a SWR meter, I can’t tell how good my signal is, but then,
I’m usually just listening anyway.I suppose I’ll fix it when I get back at some point. For me, the radio is
less about broadcast just now then receiving information either verbally or
digitally.That will change, I’m sure, for the next cruise which I don’t expect to
return to the U.S. from.Bob
On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Silver Heels <> wrote:
Quote:Hey Bob,Actually, Gordon West writes that wire, even very thick wire, is not
desirable for counterpoise runs and connections. He wrote, “Round wires
create inductive reactance at radio frequencies, and are not effective as a
good grounding conveyance. Use 2 or 3 inch wide, 3 mil copper foil
(available at most marine electronic stores) to achieve a good seawater
ground.” He even advises, “Do not reduce the size of the foil as you
approach the tuner or the radio (with your copper foil strap). Also, do not
convert the foil to wire as you approach the tuner or the radio. Fold the
foil back on itself and drill a hole for the mounting stud.”He apparently feels so strongly about this that he repeats it in the same
chapter: “Again, I would like to mention that running wire – even battery
cable – is not effective as an RF ground (counterpoise) at radio
frequencies. Although, wire looks like a good DC ground, it looks invisible
at most radio frequencies. Use foil, and only foil. Even aluminum foil will
work in a pinch. You can even use aluminum air conditioning foil with
sticky
on the back as counterpoise. Wires won’t work so forget about using them.”Than again, what you have works so maybe Mr. West is mistaken.
Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
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That’s is exactly what I wrote about the other day. It’s called the SKIN effect. No amount of circular mils (wire dia) can make up for the fact that RF at these frequencies travels on the surface of the metal.
alan— On Thu, 4/29/10, Silver Heels <> wrote:
<.. snip>
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Hence things like traveling wave guides and light weight high-tension
wires. I call it FM – F’k’n Magic.On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Alan <> wrote:
Quote:That’s is exactly what I wrote about the other day. It’s called the SKIN
effect. No amount of circular mils (wire dia) can make up for the fact that
RF at these frequencies travels on the surface of the metal.
alan— On Thu, 4/29/10, Silver Heels <> wrote:
<.. snip>
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If the ground system isn’t properly done, the radio might receive fine and
might even tune-up OK, but you’ll find that other stations won’t be able to
hear you very well if at all. It’s a very complicated subject, and I don’t
think I can go into it in enough detail in an email message.Rich – KE1EV
BlackSheepQuote:
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Hi Rich,
I realize that and have decided to change to foil connections to the
groundplate. I suppose at some point I’ll have to talk on the thing.Thanks,
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFine
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Parts may be difficult to obtain and expensive when you leave the states,
but the expertise you need is in the cruising community not just the
shore-based, never gone cruising radio experts. These experts can get you
started, but the real support is in the anchorages. Join the Waterway Club
(and other nets) and you will gain access to real world knowledge, and
people who will help for the reward of a six-pack or a dinner or just a
thank you.
I’m not disparaging the shore-based radio community, one of my best friends
has a business setting up HF radios on cruising boats. I lean on his
expertise frequently. It’s just that they can get you only so far.On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Alan <> wrote:
Quote:Bob, Here is my suggestion. Get it ALL working before you leave the US. Not
only are parts difficult to obtain, but expertise is also a little thin out
there.
Alan— On Mon, 5/3/10, Robert Fine <> wrote:
<.. snip>
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Thank you both and all!
I won’t be leaving the US until the cruising kitty is refilled – may take a
couple of years.Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFine
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