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The HF that came with my boat doesn’t work. What make and model are you guys using? Are you happy with what you have? What about weather fax capability, this is important to me.
Lee Y
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Lee,
I'm sure you know this a huge subject with almost as many subjective opinions as anchors and anchoring.
I have an ICOM M802 and it has worked well. Before that I had an ICOM M700, which also worked well. The M802 has a lot more bells an whistles than the M700, but also cost a lot more. I paid $1600 for the M802 in 2005 and sold the M700 on eBay to someone in American Samoa for $400 that same year. Most the cruisers I've met over the last couple of years have either an M802, M710 or the M706. These ICOM models are marine SSB models, but can be opened up to the full HAM frequencies. Dedicated HAMS tend to have sets that are primarily HAM units (other ICOM models, Yaezu, Kenwood, etc.)
Any of the marine or HAM HF radios can be tuned to the WX FAX frequencies, but you need a computer and software to decode the signals into a graphic display and a way to get the signals into a computer. The Airmail software has a decoder for FAX and a viewer, but requires a Pactor modem ($$). There are software packages that will process the FAX signals through the computer sound card, but I have no experience with them.
I normally get my weather charts from Saildocs and Winlink on the Internet via Winlink or Sailmail. These are digital images and generally take less time to download than it takes to receive a FAX. Many times the FAXes are unintelligible, and you have to remember to turn on the radio when the chart you want is transmitting.If you are a member of SSCA you can go to that website and browse the equipment surveys by SSCA members. The SSCA probably has more members with marine HF radios than just about any other organization (sailing and otherwise). It might be worth the $40 annual dues just to get access to those surveys
.
http://www.ssca.orgJohn
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Lee Yonkers < ([email][/email])> wrote:
The HF that came with my boat doesn't work. What make and model are you guys using? Are you happy with what you have? What about weather fax capability, this is important to me.
Lee Y
Morning GloryBe a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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As John said, this is a little like religion. I’ve owned a few dozen HF radios over the years. One of my hobbies is restoring them. Each have advantages, receiver performance, ease of use, filters, band coverage, operator interface, frequency stability, and optional features. None of the marine radios that I’ve owned or seen can compete with a good HAM radio, but HAM radios are not type-approved for use on the marine bands. There are some marine radios that are type-approved for amateur use, but this is not the same thing. I keep two HF rigs on the boat, and ICOM-706 and an SGC-2000. The 706 is a decent radio, but is not outstanding. You can buy a good used one for about $400. The SGC works OK on the marine bands, but is really not a very good radio. The matching tuner is nice however. Some folks use their amateur radio on the marine bands. This is technically illegal, though some amateur radios have stability specs that are as good as the marine radios.
So what’s the best radio? It all depends on what you want to do with your HF radio and how much you are willing to spend. If you just want to get on the marine bands when offshore, a contemporary marine SSB would work fine. If you want to keep in touch with your cruising buddies over long distances, you would probably find a HAM radio to be of more value (along with the license to go with it).
So what’s a band? Frequency allocation is done by the FCC in what are called bands. The FCC will grant use of a contiguous set of frequencies to a radio service. This is called a band. In the case of both the marine and amateur services, there are band allocations scattered in the HF spectrum. Because of the odd behavior of radio waves over long distances and the influence of sun light and sunspot activity, different bands can be used for communication over different distances at different times of the day.
So what’s the difference between marine bands and amateur bands? Marine bands are channelized much like a marine VHF radio. You dial in a channel number. While you are probably aware of the band you are working on, the actual frequency is of little consequence. Marine radios are designed for appliance operators. These are folks who just want to make a contact with another station and don’t want to be bothered with making adjustments to the radio to make the received signal sound better.
Traffic on the marine bands is usually specific to marine operations, though you may hear private conversations at times. Amateur band traffic is usually of three types, contest operations, net traffic, and private conversations (aka rag-chewing). Transmissions are done on random frequencies within assigned bands. Contests are what they sound like. You enter a contest and get points for making contacts with other stations. Points are awarded based on rules like where the other station is. Net operations are done at pre-arranged frequencies and times for a specific purpose. The marine mobile net is a good example. Here cruising folks can check in to see if anyone has left a message for them.
So what makes one radio better than another? Receiver sensitivity, selectivity, and noise suppression (filtering) are probably most important. The difference between two radios connected to the same antenna can be quite dramatic. My SGC is deaf in comparison with the ICOM-706 next to it. I can receive and copy stations on the 706 that I can’t even hear on the SGC. The 706 is deaf when compared with an Elecraft K2 I have at home.
Wefax is usually transmitted on a band that is neither in the marine bands nor the amateur bands. The transmission is in a government allocated band. The US has discontinued wefax transmissions because it cost a few hundred grand each year to keep the stations on the air. You can still receive wefax broadcasts from Canada and overseas under the right conditions. You can also receive precise time of day. Most but not all marine and amateur radios can be tuned outside their approved bands to receive wefax and time. You can copy wefax, navtex, and other digital mode broadcasts using either free software or purchased software. Although you can probably connect your laptop microphone jack directly to your radio speaker output, I would recommend buying an interface box to isolate the two pieces (approx $150).
—
Rich Carter – BlackSheep #47
Original message
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Rich,
Thanks for a great overview of marine SSB and Ham for onboard.
One exception the USCG and NOAA have not discontinued WX FAX broadcast. They put out a request for information (RFI) on the need to continue this service last year, but as far as I know there are no imminent planes to discontinue the service. I know it was still active yesterday because I had to re-install my Airmail software after a hard drive failure and one of the things I checked out was GetFax. Boston is still transmitting weather fax charts.
I never responded to the RFI because WX FAX is not important to me as long as I can download GRIB files from Saildocs and the same FAX charts from Winlink.John
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Rich,
Does your SGC-2000 suck that bad. My boat came with
one and a tuner. I have not had much time to play with
it so I don’t know how “good” it is. Although I have
talked to some guy from Texas and have listened to
one of the cruisers net when the weather is right and
the stars are aligned. I have purchased a pactor
modem this winter and plan to start messing around.
alan
— wrote:Quote:As John said, this is a little like religion. I’ve
owned a few dozen HF radios over the years. One of
my hobbies is restoring them. Each have advantages,
receiver performance, ease of use, filters, band
coverage, operator interface, frequency stability,
and optional features. None of the marine radios
that I’ve owned or seen can compete with a good HAM
radio, but HAM radios are not type-approved for use
on the marine bands. There are some marine radios
that are type-approved for amateur use, but this is
not the same thing. I keep two HF rigs on the boat,
and ICOM-706 and an SGC-2000. The 706 is a decent
radio, but is not outstanding. You can buy a good
used one for about $400. The SGC works OK on the
marine bands, but is really not a very good radio.
The matching tuner is nice however. Some folks use
their amateur radio on the marine bands. This is
technically illegal, though some amateur radios have
stability specs that are as good as the marine
radios.So what’s the best radio? It all depends on what
you want to do with your HF radio and how much you
are willing to spend. If you just want to get on
the marine bands when offshore, a contemporary
marine SSB would work fine. If you want to keep in
touch with your cruising buddies over long
distances, you would probably find a HAM radio to be
of more value (along with the license to go with
it).So what’s a band? Frequency allocation is done by
the FCC in what are called bands. The FCC will
grant use of a contiguous set of frequencies to a
radio service. This is called a band. In the case
of both the marine and amateur services, there are
band allocations scattered in the HF spectrum.
Because of the odd behavior of radio waves over long
distances and the influence of sun light and sunspot
activity, different bands can be used for
communication over different distances at different
times of the day.So what’s the difference between marine bands and
amateur bands? Marine bands are channelized much
like a marine VHF radio. You dial in a channel
number. While you are probably aware of the band
you are working on, the actual frequency is of
little consequence. Marine radios are designed for
appliance operators. These are folks who just want
to make a contact with another station and don’t
want to be bothered with making adjustments to the
radio to make the received signal sound better.Traffic on the marine bands is usually specific to
marine operations, though you may hear private
conversations at times. Amateur band traffic is
usually of three types, contest operations, net
traffic, and private conversations (aka
rag-chewing). Transmissions are done on random
frequencies within assigned bands. Contests are
what they sound like. You enter a contest and get
points for making contacts with other stations.
Points are awarded based on rules like where the
other station is. Net operations are done at
pre-arranged frequencies and times for a specific
purpose. The marine mobile net is a good example.
Here cruising folks can check in to see if anyone
has left a message for them.So what makes one radio better than another?
Receiver sensitivity, selectivity, and noise
suppression (filtering) are probably most important.
The difference between two radios connected to the
same antenna can be quite dramatic. My SGC is deaf
in comparison with the ICOM-706 next to it. I can
receive and copy stations on the 706 that I can’t
even hear on the SGC. The 706 is deaf when compared
with an Elecraft K2 I have at home.Wefax is usually transmitted on a band that is
neither in the marine bands nor the amateur bands.
The transmission is in a government allocated band.
The US has discontinued wefax transmissions because
it cost a few hundred grand each year to keep the
stations on the air. You can still receive wefax
broadcasts from Canada and overseas under the right
conditions. You can also receive precise time of
day. Most but not all marine and amateur radios can
be tuned outside their approved bands to receive
wefax and time. You can copy wefax, navtex, and
other digital mode broadcasts using either free
software or purchased software. Although you can
probably connect your laptop microphone jack
directly to your radio speaker output, I would
recommend buying an interface box to isolate the two
pieces (approx $150).—
Rich Carter – BlackSheep #47
Original message
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Alan,
I'll let Rich speak for his experience with the SGC2000, but one of my friends who is in the business of re-selling and installing marine HF radios has an SGC2000 on board. He has a similar opinion on it as Rich expressed, but he still uses it on board, and he is fairly active on the Ham frequencies. He does not do a lot of DSQing, but he does (or used to) participate in the most of the cruisers nets on the East Coast and the Caribbean. I think if he ever went cruising (never happen) he would upgrade the SSB – he buys radios wholesale. In the meantime it meets his needs.
So I think whether the SGC2000 sucks for you depends on how important it is in your cruising plans and where you cruise. If you're just going to the Caribbean for a few years and have a Ham license, the SGC is probably adequate. If you want to cross an ocean maybe you should consider an upgrade. I assume you have the SGC230 tuner, which most knowledgeable people consider the best. That's what I use with my 802. So if you decide to upgrade the SSB don't let the SGC230 go, it will work with just about any marine SSB.
That Pactor modem will put a lot of demand on your radio so that should be a good test of the adequacy of the SGC for your needs. If you can reliably connect to SailMail or Winlink, why upgrade? Of course success with SailMail and Winlink has as much to do with the quality of the counterpoise as it does with the HF radio.
With regard to Winlink and Sailmail. Last summer, sailing back to the US, I found it very difficult to connect to Winlink, but consistently connected to SailMail. That even though there were a lot more stations in the Winlink network and generally better propagation available than to the single SailMail station in Europe (Brussels). Eventually I stopped attempting to connect to Winlink and used SailMail the rest of the way. Once I was within 1500 nm of the US SailMail stations I was able to connect reliably with them. I did have to request additional time from SailMail – you are limited to 90 minutes in any 7 consecutive days. I never discovered or got an explanation of why I had such great success with SailMail and such little success with Winlink.John
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:27 AM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Rich,
Does your SGC-2000 suck that bad. My boat came with
one and a tuner. I have not had much time to play with
it so I don't know how “good” it is. Although I have
talked to some guy from Texas and have listened to
one of the cruisers net when the weather is right and
the stars are aligned. I have purchased a pactor
modem this winter and plan to start messing around.
alan—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I know how controversial the conversations can be
concerning SSB, so …lets try this on for size.
PO had a strip of copper foil the was tacked down the
length of the bilge running to the thruhull in the aft
hanging locker. That thruhull is not connected to the
bonding system. The foil then goes the ground lug on
the tuner.
The ant. is a ss 1×19 wire that runs up to an
insulator on top of the mizzen mast then over to the
top of the main mast where it is attached to small
line.
I figure I’ll just leave well enough alone for the
time being. Try the Pactor modem and go from there. I
am thinking I shlould be able to get something up here
in Lake Ontario (away from the marina of course).
If that does not work well… there is always radials
right?
As for the HAM thing… I have a study guide. the test
doesn’t seem to hard….I mean I just got my USCG
Masters… so…. not to dis the ham people.
alan— John Stevenson <> wrote:
Alan,
I’ll let Rich speak for his experience with the
SGC2000, but one of my
friends who is in the business of re-selling and
installing marine HF radios
has an SGC2000 on board. He has a similar opinion
on it as Rich expressed,
but he still uses it on board, and he is fairly
active on the Ham
frequencies. He does not do a lot of DSQing, but he
does (or used to)
participate in the most of the cruisers nets on the
East Coast and the
Caribbean. I think if he ever went cruising (never
happen) he would upgrade
the SSB – he buys radios wholesale. In the meantime
it meets his needs.
So I think whether the SGC2000 sucks for you depends
on how important it is
in your cruising plans and where you cruise. If
you’re just going to the
Caribbean for a few years and have a Ham license,
the SGC is probably
adequate. If you want to cross an ocean maybe you
should consider an
upgrade. I assume you have the SGC230 tuner, which
most knowledgeable
people consider the best. That’s what I use with my
802. So if you decide
to upgrade the SSB don’t let the SGC230 go, it will
work with just about any
marine SSB.
That Pactor modem will put a lot of demand on your
radio so that should be a
good test of the adequacy of the SGC for your needs.
If you can reliably
connect to SailMail or Winlink, why upgrade? Of
course success with
SailMail and Winlink has as much to do with the
quality of the counterpoise
as it does with the HF radio.
With regard to Winlink and Sailmail. Last summer,
sailing back to the US, I
found it very difficult to connect to Winlink, but
consistently connected to
SailMail. That even though there were a lot more
stations in the Winlink
network and generally better propagation available
than to the single
SailMail station in Europe (Brussels). Eventually I
stopped attempting to
connect to Winlink and used SailMail the rest of the
way. Once I was within
1500 nm of the US SailMail stations I was able to
connect reliably with
them. I did have to request additional time from
SailMail – you are limited
to 90 minutes in any 7 consecutive days. I never
discovered or got an
explanation of why I had such great success with
SailMail and such little
success with Winlink.John
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:27 AM, alan P
<> wrote:Rich,
Does your SGC-2000 suck that bad. My boat camewith
one and a tuner. I have not had much time to play
with
it so I don’t know how “good” it is. Although I
have
talked to some guy from Texas and have listened
to
one of the cruisers net when the weather is right
and
the stars are aligned. I have purchased a pactor
modem this winter and plan to start messingaround.
alan
—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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For additional commands, e-mail:Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Speaking of grounding planes and so forth – I have one of those plates bolted to the hull in the aft cabin hanging locker which is not attached to anything. Since I've already decided to use the ICOM unit (might as well, right?) what is the best way to do this whole grounding thing? Or, if there's a good, but simple, book on it, what's the title?
Bob
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:14 AM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I know how controversial the conversations can be
concerning SSB, so …lets try this on for size.
PO had a strip of copper foil the was tacked down the
length of the bilge running to the thruhull in the aft
hanging locker. That thruhull is not connected to the
bonding system. The foil then goes the ground lug on
the tuner.
The ant. is a ss 1×19 wire that runs up to an
insulator on top of the mizzen mast then over to the
top of the main mast where it is attached to small
line.
I figure I'll just leave well enough alone for the
time being. Try the Pactor modem and go from there. I
am thinking I shlould be able to get something up here
in Lake Ontario (away from the marina of course).
If that does not work well… there is always radials
right?
As for the HAM thing… I have a study guide. the test
doesn't seem to hard….I mean I just got my USCG
Masters… so…. not to dis the ham people.
alan— John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Alan,
I'll let Rich speak for his experience with the
SGC2000, but one of my
friends who is in the business of re-selling and
installing marine HF radios
has an SGC2000 on board. He has a similar opinion
on it as Rich expressed,
but he still uses it on board, and he is fairly
active on the Ham
frequencies. He does not do a lot of DSQing, but he
does (or used to)
participate in the most of the cruisers nets on the
East Coast and the
Caribbean. I think if he ever went cruising (never
happen) he would upgrade
the SSB – he buys radios wholesale. In the meantime
it meets his needs.
So I think whether the SGC2000 sucks for you depends
on how important it is
in your cruising plans and where you cruise. If
you're just going to the
Caribbean for a few years and have a Ham license,
the SGC is probably
adequate. If you want to cross an ocean maybe you
should consider an
upgrade. I assume you have the SGC230 tuner, which
most knowledgeable
people consider the best. That's what I use with my
802. So if you decide
to upgrade the SSB don't let the SGC230 go, it will
work with just about any
marine SSB.
That Pactor modem will put a lot of demand on your
radio so that should be a
good test of the adequacy of the SGC for your needs.
If you can reliably
connect to SailMail or Winlink, why upgrade? Of
course success with
SailMail and Winlink has as much to do with the
quality of the counterpoise
as it does with the HF radio.
With regard to Winlink and Sailmail. Last summer,
sailing back to the US, I
found it very difficult to connect to Winlink, but
consistently connected to
SailMail. That even though there were a lot more
stations in the Winlink
network and generally better propagation available
than to the single
SailMail station in Europe (Brussels). Eventually I
stopped attempting to
connect to Winlink and used SailMail the rest of the
way. Once I was within
1500 nm of the US SailMail stations I was able to
connect reliably with
them. I did have to request additional time from
SailMail – you are limited
to 90 minutes in any 7 consecutive days. I never
discovered or got an
explanation of why I had such great success with
SailMail and such little
success with Winlink.John
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 6:27 AM, alan P
< ([email][/email])> wrote:Rich,
Does your SGC-2000 suck that bad. My boat camewith
one and a tuner. I have not had much time to play
with
it so I don't know how “good” it is. Although I
have
talked to some guy from Texas and have listened
to
one of the cruisers net when the weather is right
and
the stars are aligned. I have purchased a pactor
modem this winter and plan to start messingaround.
alan
—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
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I think if you ask 10 people about grounding a SSB
radio you will most likely get 11 opinions.
ICOM has some great tech articles on the subject. The
best place to ask questions about SSB is the SSCA
forum.alan
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Hi Alan,
Thanks!
Bob
On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 7:49 AM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I think if you ask 10 people about grounding a SSB
radio you will most likely get 11 opinions.
ICOM has some great tech articles on the subject. The
best place to ask questions about SSB is the SSCA
forum.alan
____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kiddingPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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I've pretty much shot the bolt on my expertise on marine HF radios with the previous posts. My counterpoise is a run of 3″ foil from the forward cabin down the port side of the bilge to 1″ braid that runs across the back of the engine compartment to my SGC230 mounted on the side of the hull in the starboard locker. The reason the foil goes down the port side then crosses over is because I had the yard install a Dynaplate (what I believe Bob has in the aft locker), but they got confused and put it on the wrong side of the boat – something I didn't discover until the boat was back at my dock and we were starting the SSB installation. After completing the installation I learned that all the experts believe the Dynaplates are so tiny (even the largest ones) that they are virtually useless in the counterpoise. This summer I will start experimenting with the SSB again and may lay a second foil down the starboard side and connect it to the lead ballast in the keel with a hanger bolt. The most consistent recommendation I have received is to connect as much metal mass as possible to the counterpoise that is not part of boat's electrical system (which rules out the engine block).
With the existing foil set up I got very inconsistent connections to Winlink and SailMail when we left Florida. Herb Helgenberg never got a really good copy on us to the point where I stopped using his net a few days out of Bermuda. Finally in Horta we experimented with radials (multiple wires connected to the SGC230 ground lug strung in various directions around the boat. That seemed to improve the SWR readings for the Winlink frequencies with the best propagation for our cruise from the Azores to Portugal and I had the best connections of the trip on that leg.
Alan is right if you ask for advice from the experts you will get multiple answers, even from one person. That's because there are actually many ways to achieve effective radio performance on a boat and it is also because radio installation is a black art.On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:49 AM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I think if you ask 10 people about grounding a SSB
radio you will most likely get 11 opinions.
ICOM has some great tech articles on the subject. The
best place to ask questions about SSB is the SSCA
forum.alan
____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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Regards,
John Stevenson
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Alan
The SGC-2000 is a fine radio for its intended use. It has several
weaknesses that could be improved. The power-talk model (with Digital
Signal Processing) solves some of these. You can tell if you have the
power-talk model because it has a large dial on the frontpanel. The
standard model doesn’t have the knob, so it has no tuning knob. Without the
tuning knob, it is very awkward to use in the ham bands. You have to tune
the radio by punching in the frequency directly or using the up/down button.
The radio lacks some features that would be considered bare necessities for
a ham rig such as RF gain adjustment. The receiver sensitivity is not very
good, but it is OK. It has a high noise floor. Without the DSP power-talk
head, the radio has no filters, so it is hard to hear a weak signal. I
bought a power-talk head at a flea-market a few years back and swapped it
out so my radio has the DSP unit.The antnna tuner is very good. If you chose to replace the radio, I suggest
that you keep the antenna tuner.Rich
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