- This topic has 25 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 4 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
Hi all I’m a new member and have owned a 1979 424 Ketch in the past and am considering another. This time around I think that I prefer a sloop or a cutter although not in-mast furling.
My questions are:
Is the mast height on the sloop the same as the ketch or cutter? Or something else?
I know that the cutter mast is taller and moved farther aft. How would the sloop compare to that?
Boom length same on all?
Thanks.
Chris
-
Welcome aboard!! I was new a couple of years ago and you’re going to love
the list and your P424.Cutter (sloop) comparison is on the P424 site:
https://www.pearson424.org/images/cutterketchcompare.gifBut very few 424s are exactly the same.
<https://www.pearson424.org/images/cutterketchcompare.gif>-p
—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comOn Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Sailpower <> wrote:
Hi all I’m a new member and have owned a 1979 424 Ketch in the past and am
considering another. This time around I think that I prefer a sloop or a
cutter although not in-mast furling.My questions are:
Is the mast height on the sloop the same as the ketch or cutter? Or
something else?I know that the cutter mast is taller and moved farther aft. How would the
sloop compare to that?Boom length same on all?
Thanks.
Chris
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Chris,
Pearson made the 424 in several rig configurations, changing dimensions from
year to year. Typically, the sloop is just a ketch without the mizzen
option. The cutter is typically a taller rig with the mast about 3 feet
farther aft.Regards
RichQuote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Patrick, thanks for the welcome. I am pretty familiar with this boats, “A” layout with and without the forward toilet, “B” layout with the forward enclosed head and “C” layout with the single companionway, enclosed aft cabin and two heads, all either ketch or cutter.
BUT, the rare sloops that I have seen appear to have the mast in the same place as the ketch so I assume the same height? My concern is that mast placement would mean the shorter stick which would seem to be kind of slow?
Did Pearson actually make a sloop or were they owner modified ketches?
Thanks again.
-
Wrong-o.
The ketch’s rig is shorter by several feet than the sloop’s. The mast in
the sloop is also forward of the ketch’s.The ketch’s main mast is 48′ from water. The sloop’s is higher.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I stand corrected. The cutter didn’t come in a taller rig.
Model I J P E
Pearson 424 Cutter 47.25 18.16 41.00 14.50
Pearson 424 Ketch 44.08 15.75 38.00 14.50
Pearson 424 Ketch TM 47.25 15.75 41.00 14.50
Pearson 424 SLP 1-204 47.25 15.75 41.00 14.50
Pearson 424 SLP 205+ 47.25 18.16 41.00 14.50Rich
Quote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Thanks again for all the input. I believe that the cutter mast is just almost 3’ taller than the ketch mast. Because there is no mizzen on the cutter, the mast is moved back aft a little. From the exterior, the cutter mast looks almost one port back. From the interior, the ketch mast comes down at the forward end of the drop leaf table. On the cutter, the mast comes down through the aft end of the drop leaf table.
What is confusing to me is why wouldn’t the sloop mast, if it is the same height as the cutter mast, not also be moved aft?
Madsailor, not sure if you said that right. Ketch mast and sloop mast look to be in the same spot. Cutter mast is aft of those.
From the photos I have seen the booms look the same length?
I will try and figure out how to post a photo here and show you some examples.
Interesting.
-
You’re welcome –
The reason I know these things is that I spent a month with Lee and Karen on
Morning Glory – we spent a great deal of time comparing their sloop to my
ketch. His mast is definitely higher than mine and in a different spot. I
think the booms are similarly long.I could fit, just barely, through the Okeechobee Waterway and Lee could not.
Anyway, enjoy your new boat and glad to have you on the forum!
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I have a sloop. I’ve tie-up to other 424’s at several rendezvous and compared rigs. My sloop is identical to these ketches except I lack a mizzen. The ketch comes in two flavors, the most common has a taller rig (I=47.25). I could add a mizzen if I came across one with little effort. The cockpit is reinforced for the mast step and the attachment points for the mizzen chainplates are glassed into the hull. I don’t know why Pearson made the sloop the way they did. It would not be my first choice. The boat sails OK the way it is however and balances well. I fly a 150 genoa.
At the end of the production cycle, Pearson changed the sloop rig to be the same as a cutter without the inner stay. This moves the mast aft about 3 feet. I don’t know how many sloops Pearson made. I’ve never seen another. My guess is that there are but a handful of us.
I could have sworn that they made the cutter with an optional taller rig, but I can’t find specs on it. If someone has such a rig they might speak up.
Rich
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I have a factory cutter rig, #214, 1983 model year. My “I” measurement is
47.25. Mast is set aft of sloop and ketch model, and total length of mast
(from mast step) is 54 ft.
This puts my height over water at approx 51 ft.
My other measurements are:
J- 18.16
P- 41
E- 16 (this is an extended boom over factory)This gives me a mainsail area of 751 sq ft.
Hope this helps.
Rodd Leeds
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I suppose some folks over the years might have converted their ketches and cutters to sloop rigs which would also account for the different mast placements.
Rich, I didn’t know that the ketch came in two heights. Why do you say that the sloop would not be your first choice?
Rod, how do you like the extended boom? How did it affect your boats performance?
A tall sloop rig with an extended boom and a 135 is what I have been thinking of doing. That would be pretty easy to handle but I don’t know if that combination would make the boat more tender?
-
My boat was converted to a sloop by the PO. The mast is original at 48+’ and the mizzen mast was used to make a new boom, 18′ in length rather than the original 16′. I use a 135 genoa. This design configuration was made in collaboration with Bill Shaw. I am very happy with the performance, especially since I have a low center of effort and I sail where the trade winds blow.
The extra space in the cockpit makes it easy to entertain fellow cruisers.Joe,
Half Moon, #71________________________________
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
This is MHO, no flames please!
The sloop rig is not a bad choice, but lacks flexibility. There is little
that can be done about changing the headsail when the weather picks up.
Deeply reefing a roller-furling headsail compromises shape to the point
where the boat won’t point at all. The short rig begs for a more sail area
in light air (is there any other kind here in the NE during the summer?).
This puts a 150% genny on the roller-furler if you want to go anywhere.
This is a low-aspect rig, so the boat doesn’t point all that well
out-of-the-box.The ketch rig looks cool. It has a few problems however. The mizzen is
short and the boom is too high. Lowering the mizzen boom would interfere
with the helmsman however. I don’t know why Pearson didn’t make the mizzen
a little taller. You’ve got barely a hankercheif up there. It makes a
convenient place to hang a radar dome and good foothold for the
sheet-monkey. It preclueds a backstay adjuster which agrevates the poor
pointing ability of the 424. The extra rigging clutters the deck and makes
it difficult to fit a proper bimini. Without the mizzen, the center of
effort is pretty far forward anyway. Owners report that it makes balancing
the boat easier. You don’t really need a mizzen to balance the boat. It
might be nice to drop the headsail entirely and run with just main and
mizzen, but there are other ways to balance the boat in heavy air (e.g
flatten the sails and ease the main). I guess it’s a matter of wanting a
boat that looks cool and I must confess that I wish my boat had more
pleasing lines. I see no other argument for the mizzen. I even know one
owner who removed his mizzen and reverted to a sloop rig. If your cruising
grounds require passage under a low bridge, the stock ketch may be the right
solution for you. Comon ketch owners, fess-up. Your boat looks cool and
you know it. Does it really sail better than a sloop?The standard sloop avoids the clutter in the cockpit, facilitates adding a
proper backstay tensioner, makes it pretty simple to add a bimini and even
enclose the cockpit, and avoids the clutter of that extra rigging. It looks
awkward with a what is still a short rig; looking almost naked with nothing
over the cockpit (see attached). With a proper backstay and decent sails,
it will point reasonably well. Moving the mast aft by three feet as is done
with the cutter doesn’t really do anything for headsail area or aspect
ratio. A cutter with a 130% genny and a sloop with a 150% genny have
approximately the same headsail area. The cutter has a longer boom however.
This moves the center of effort back and the boat looks better. I suppose
you could increase the cutter headsail size to 150%, but then again you
could also increase the sloop to 170%, same difference. The cutter does
however add the staysail. This allows you to strike the headsail when the
wind picks up and never need to leave the cockpit. It makes tacking the
boat difficult unless a small headsail with a high-clew is flown. This
removes the sail area advantage that the cutter could have.Adding a solent-stay solves the headsail problem in heavy air. It doesn’t
interfere with the boat when tacking. Yes, you have to go forward to set
the sail in heavy air, but after rolling-up the headsail this isn’t a big
deal. I think this is the best solution. As noted above, it doesn’t look
cool however so its not for everyone. I think a cutter modified for a
solent-stay has more attractive lines and would be my choice if I had to
pick.I thought the cutter was available in a taller rig, but I can’t find specs
for that configuration. This would improve the aspect ratio and provide a
better sailing boat.The 424 is a stiff boat no matter what you put up there. I remember very
few occasions when I burried the toe-rail in the water. I’m sure that
perhaps all of us have different opinions as to which is the best rig
compromise. No matter if you have the stock ketch, tall-ketch, sloop, or
cutter it’s a comfortable and beautiful boat.Rich
Quote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Amen Rich,
a real beauty…..
here is mine, a converted ketch to sloop. I have a removeable inner stay with baby running backstay which can add sail area, but I have only used it once. The 18′ boom and 135 genny works well…as does the new Yanmar in light air.
Joe,________________________________
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Hi Rich,
No flaming here but I take a bit of exception to your characterization to
ketch rig and staysails.I sail in the northeast (Long Island Sound and environs) and have a ketch
with a staysail (the discussion is whether it’s a staysail ketch or cutter
ketch. I vote for cutter ketch, but some disagree. But I digress). The
staysail is self-tacking.When I ordered new sails, I ordered a 140% jib and new staysail. Imagine my
distress in receiving a 120% jib instead. (“Oops” said the sailmaker)Long story short, the combination of the two gives plenty of power even in
light air. Moreover, the staysail makes tacking much easier in that it
‘feeds’ the jib through the slot. Otherwise it has a tendency to hang up on
the inner forestay.Downwind I can ‘wing-on-wing’ the two sails fairly easily and in 35 knots
true will drag the boat along at 8+ knots steady as a rock.The ketch rig, especially with the shorter mast, makes a very easy to
singlehand vessel with a very flexible sail plan. Most of the time, if the
wind’s over 15 knots, I don’t even bother with the mainsail using instead
the jib, stay, and mizzen.I consistently run 6-7 knots with a clean bottom.That said, I had a little larger mizzen made with a fairly radical roach. I
lowered the boom about 4″. As an aside, it also serves as a lifting device
for the outboard engine.On a close haul, you are correct – the mizzen is fairly useless. It tends
to luff from the wind coming off the main. But at 50 degrees off the wind
it provides a fair amount of power. It’s far from a useless sail.The ketch sails like crap with just the main and mizzen. Even off the wind
there’s not enough power to move the boat. The headsails make all the
difference.I agree with your comment about clutter. There is an awful lot of it.
Between the stays and running backstays you have a nearly complete fence
around the cockpit. There’s always something to grab onto or to fiddle
with. It’s a curse and a blessing depending on how busy you are.One thing I wish I had was either a vang for the mizzen or a traveler for
it. It tends to twist too much off the wind making it’s power less
effective. But that’d be another thing in the cockpit…Most of my sailing is done on autopilot or standing on the seats so I can
see where I’m going so the low boom isn’t an issue for me.A rudimentary backstay adjuster could be added with a block on each of the
split stays connected together and to a tackle that draws those blocks down
and therefore the stays together. The mizzen could be the anchor point.The ketch does indeed look cool under sail.
I suspect you can point higher than I – I can get to about 45 degrees.
All the best,
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Guys,
I have a ketch rig that was converted to a sloop so the previous owner could get under the Huntington Harbor bridge. The mizzen mast is not missed at all, in fact it opens up the big beautiful cockpit of the 424. We sail on San Francisco Bay in winds that can rattle your teeth. A double reef and a 150 genoa is the preferred rig to weather. She points with the best of them. I replaced all of the standing rigging and put on a split back stay to eliminate the stress to the stern. In ultra heavy blows to 50 Kts a double reefed main and a storm jib is the perfect balance. In my opinion you do not need the mizzen.
I have sailed every type of rig and fail to see why any boat benefits from a mizzen rig. I does little to balance the boat an is right in the middle of the cockpit. If they work then why don’t racing yachts have ketch/yawl rigs?
The bottom line is that the 424 is an awesome boat whatever the rig and I hope I have not upset all of you multi-masted sailors too much.
Respectfully,
Bill________________________________
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
You haven’t upset any of us. We each choose the rig we want for our own
reasons. I like the ketch with a staysail for flexibility and ease of
handling smaller sails. It’s the rig I’ve always wanted and was happy and
lucky to find a 424 in good shape with the rig I wanted.I’ve sailed sloops, cutters, schooners and any number of little boats and in
my humble opinion I’ll put up with the cockpit clutter for the handling
ease. As I said, in reality, the main is the least used sail and is the
first one reefed or dowsed.But that’s me.
You’re happy with your choice, I’m happy with mine, Rich is happy with his,
Tor with his, and so on.The 424 hull supports all kinds of rigs – it’s stiff and relatively fast for
a boat its age and size. It makes a great liveaboard and a very competent
cruiser. In truth, we probably all could switch to a different rigged 424
and be just as happy. They’re good boats and have been good to us.So enjoy your sloop!
In 50 knots, I’d use the staysail and mizzen. All self tacking and all
smallish sails.Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Bill said:
“The mizzen mast is not missed at all, in fact it opens up the big beautiful cockpit of the 424. We sail on San Francisco Bay in winds that can rattle your teeth. A double reef and a 150 genoa is the preferred rig to weather. She points with the best of them. “
Without the mizzen mast, how do you brace your feet. I find I have one foot on the mizzen mast most of the time offshore, when you are normally sitting in one of the forward corners?
Paul #28
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Paul,
You have got me there. Passengers need to hang on during a good heal with little to hold you in. The binacle is the central bracing point and the P424 sails fairly upright most of the time. I love these boats no matter the rig too!
Bill #86________________________________
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
-
-
Bill,
Certainly there is no ultimate right or wrong in the ‘which rig is best’
debate, but there are some practical uses for a mizzen sail that modern
sailors often overlook. I’ve owned and cruised 2 ketches and 2 yawls over
the years. Based on those sailing experiences, here are some thoughts in
defense of the mizzen: http://www.tor.cc/articles/mizzen.htm .Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Interesting thoughts.
Regarding the Riding Sail, I’ve frequently run into something related when
anchoring in a spot that’s not well protected. The wind and waves don’t
always come from the same direction. I run a line from one of the cockpit
winches and tie it onto the anchor chain. I pay out about 30 feet of chain
and crank in the line to put the boat at the proper angle to make it
comfortable. I tie the line to the chain with a small piece that’s intended
to break if the wind picks up, 1/8″ line seems to work for me. Its amazing
how much more comfortable we can sit while the rest of the anchorage rocks
and rolls all night. Oddly, I’ve never observed anyone use a similar
technique.Rich
Quote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I used that a few times this winter when the waves and the wind were not lined up. I used a 2nd snubber lead back to the winch. Just crank it in until the bow turns. Just need to put the line down pretty far down the anchor chain to get a good angle.
alan— On Mon, 6/14/10, Rich Carter <> wrote:
<.. snip>
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Rich,
You never cease to amaze me! I figured out that anchoring technique for
myself 20-odd years ago and dubbed it “springing the rode” (see
http://www.tor.cc/articles/rode.htm). Like you I’ve not seen it employed by anyone
else. Unlike you I did not think of the 1/8″ break line. That’s pretty cool.Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:
Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Tor,
Your insight is well founded. Thanks for the article, I have done the same anchor snubber technique at Catalina harbor to slow the rolling motion.
How many ways can you rig a boat? Too many. Enjoy your wonderful time in the Caribbean. You are living the life I can only dream of.
Soon come Mon,
BillEdit One Productions, Inc.
2310 Clement Avenue
Alameda, CA 94501Studio 510-814-9519
Fax 510-814-6945
Cell 415-279-1340________________________________
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.