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I sent details on the PAFog Horn seperately, you were all right on that I had the math wrong.
The 2.4Amp for the Spreader lights is for both lights together, not one. Their website says ~1A @ 12V. The packaging of the actual lights says 1.2A. I plan to hook them on a single wire, so 2.4A.
We have a bimini and don’t have it up all the time. I admit those may not have been necessary and I thought about not doing them, but I decided to do it and I bought the lights so they are getting installed. Plus now I have the option to hang a disco ball from my mizzen halyard and I can angle the mizzen spreader lights to shine on it. 😉I think many of the things Pearson did in the factory were standard for the times, but would not be ok today or woudl be considered cutting corners (all manufacturers do it, I’m not picking on Pearson). I’m not re-wiring the entire boat to bring it up to ABYC standards, but I am trying to follow recognized best practices to guide anything new I’m installing. Using wiring that only allows a 3% voltage drop is what is reccomended today for marine wiring by ABYC (“Sailboat Electrics Simplified”, pg48, Don Casey). I think if you did the math on your systems you may find you’re undersized. I’m sure it’s working fine though too. I’m pulling some new wire so I want to do it “right” which for me means finding the recognized standards learning them and applying them. Plus all that research is 10% of the fun of having a boat! Th other 90% of the fun is in applying the learning to take you sailing safely to amazing places!
-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comFrom: “John Stevenson” <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:33 AM
To: “Pearson 424 owners listserve” <>
Subject: Re: Mast Wiring PlansPatrick,
Are you planning a Bimini for the cockpit? If so, the mizzen spreader lights may not be of that much value. Those LED spreader lights seem to draw a lot of current, not that much less than my sealed beam spreader lights on the main mast. 8AWG for the PA horn seems a bit excessive for something that normally is only used by power boaters who like to announce their arrival at the fuel dock. I would re-think whether or not to fit that device. Another thought might be how often, if ever, would you use this device when not motoring, in which case the input voltage would be about 13.8V, allowing significant voltage drop and still provide 11.5V to the device. 12AWG ought to be sufficient in that case.
All of my in-mast wire is 12AWG – TriColor (LED now, but not when originally wired), Bow Light/Foredeck Light, spreader lights. Wire from the terminal strips in the forward cabin to the distribution panel are all 12AWG as well.
That is my freely given comments, worth every penny.On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Alan < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:if you use the antenna/bridge arrangement similar to the IslandTime PC product – a CAT 5 cable is all that is needed and there is no signal loss. I have mine mounted on the mizzen spreader though. I can grab wifi signals from at least 2 miles…. maybe more.
On my way down here – i was sailing smack dab in the middle of the chesepeake and I was grapping all kinds of free wifi from the western shore.
alan
unabated— On Wed, 12/30/09, Rich Carter < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Patrick,
I must had another senior moment, the wire in my mast in 10AWG not 12AWG. That is wire I installed. The Pearson wire from the mast terminal strip to the distribution panel is 12AWG, which was probably OK for the factory installed mast lights (all have been replaced). I had planned to replace the Pearson wire, but never got around to it. May have to try to get that done before spring.On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Patrick Walters < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I sent details on the PAFog Horn seperately, you were all right on that I had the math wrong.The 2.4Amp for the Spreader lights is for both lights together, not one. Their website says ~1A @ 12V. The packaging of the actual lights says 1.2A. I plan to hook them on a single wire, so 2.4A.
We have a bimini and don't have it up all the time. I admit those may not have been necessary and I thought about not doing them, but I decided to do it and I bought the lights so they are getting installed. Plus now I have the option to hang a disco ball from my mizzen halyard and I can angle the mizzen spreader lights to shine on it. 😉I think many of the things Pearson did in the factory were standard for the times, but would not be ok today or woudl be considered cutting corners (all manufacturers do it, I'm not picking on Pearson). I'm not re-wiring the entire boat to bring it up to ABYC standards, but I am trying to follow recognized best practices to guide anything new I'm installing. Using wiring that only allows a 3% voltage drop is what is reccomended today for marine wiring by ABYC (“Sailboat Electrics Simplified”, pg48, Don Casey). I think if you did the math on your systems you may find you're undersized. I'm sure it's working fine though too. I'm pulling some new wire so I want to do it “right” which for me means finding the recognized standards learning them and applying them. Plus all that research is 10% of the fun of having a boat! Th other 90% of the fun is in applying the learning to take you sailing safely to amazing places!
-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424Â Hull #152 |Â http://www.DeepPlaya.comFrom: “John Stevenson” < ([email][/email])>
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:33 AM
To: “Pearson 424 owners listserve” < ([email][/email])>
Subject: Re: Mast Wiring PlansPatrick,
Are you planning a Bimini for the cockpit? If so, the mizzen spreader lights may not be of that much value. Those LED spreader lights seem to draw a lot of current, not that much less than my sealed beam spreader lights on the main mast. 8AWG for the PA horn seems a bit excessive for something that normally is only used by power boaters who like to announce their arrival at the fuel dock. I would re-think whether or not to fit that device. Another thought might be how often, if ever, would you use this device when not motoring, in which case the input voltage would be about 13.8V, allowing significant voltage drop and still provide 11.5V to the device. 12AWG ought to be sufficient in that case.
All of my in-mast wire is 12AWG – TriColor (LED now, but not when originally wired), Bow Light/Foredeck Light, spreader lights. Wire from the terminal strips in the forward cabin to the distribution panel are all 12AWG as well.
That is my freely given comments, worth every penny.On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Alan < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:if you use the antenna/bridge arrangement similar to the IslandTime PC product – a CAT 5 cable is all that is needed and there is no signal loss. I have mine mounted on the mizzen spreader though. I can grab wifi signals from at least 2 miles…. maybe more.
On my way down here – i was sailing smack dab in the middle of the chesepeake and I was grapping all kinds of free wifi from the western shore.
alan
unabated— On Wed, 12/30/09, Rich Carter < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Unlike the incandescent lights, the LEDs won’t suffer from that minor voltage loss. The drivers usually are designed to run from 10 to 30 volts, providing the same brightness. IMHO, using such heavy wire to carry only 2.5A to the lights is overkill.
Pete
On 12/30/2009 2:55 PM, John Stevenson wrote:
Quote:Patrick,
I must had another senior moment, the wire in my mast in 10AWG not 12AWG. That is wire I installed. The Pearson wire from the mast terminal strip to the distribution panel is 12AWG, which was probably OK for the factory installed mast lights (all have been replaced). I had planned to replace the Pearson wire, but never got around to it. May have to try to get that done before spring.On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Patrick Walters < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I sent details on the PAFog Horn seperately, you were all right on that I had the math wrong.The 2.4Amp for the Spreader lights is for both lights together, not one. Their website says ~1A @ 12V. The packaging of the actual lights says 1.2A. I plan to hook them on a single wire, so 2.4A.
We have a bimini and don’t have it up all the time. I admit those may not have been necessary and I thought about not doing them, but I decided to do it and I bought the lights so they are getting installed. Plus now I have the option to hang a disco ball from my mizzen halyard and I can angle the mizzen spreader lights to shine on it. 😉I think many of the things Pearson did in the factory were standard for the times, but would not be ok today or woudl be considered cutting corners (all manufacturers do it, I’m not picking on Pearson). I’m not re-wiring the entire boat to bring it up to ABYC standards, but I am trying to follow recognized best practices to guide anything new I’m installing. Using wiring that only allows a 3% voltage drop is what is reccomended today for marine wiring by ABYC (“Sailboat Electrics Simplified”, pg48, Don Casey). I think if you did the math on your systems you may find you’re undersized. I’m sure it’s working fine though too. I’m pulling some new wire so I want to do it “right” which for me means finding the recognized standards learning them and applying them. Plus all that research is 10% of the fun of having a boat! Th other 90% of the fun is in applying the learning to take you sailing safely to amazing places!
-p
—-
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comFrom: “John Stevenson” < ([email][/email])>
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:33 AM
To: “Pearson 424 owners listserve” < ([email][/email])>
Subject: Re: Mast Wiring PlansPatrick,
Are you planning a Bimini for the cockpit? If so, the mizzen spreader lights may not be of that much value. Those LED spreader lights seem to draw a lot of current, not that much less than my sealed beam spreader lights on the main mast. 8AWG for the PA horn seems a bit excessive for something that normally is only used by power boaters who like to announce their arrival at the fuel dock. I would re-think whether or not to fit that device. Another thought might be how often, if ever, would you use this device when not motoring, in which case the input voltage would be about 13.8V, allowing significant voltage drop and still provide 11.5V to the device. 12AWG ought to be sufficient in that case.
All of my in-mast wire is 12AWG – TriColor (LED now, but not when originally wired), Bow Light/Foredeck Light, spreader lights. Wire from the terminal strips in the forward cabin to the distribution panel are all 12AWG as well.
That is my freely given comments, worth every penny.On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Alan < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:if you use the antenna/bridge arrangement similar to the IslandTime PC product – a CAT 5 cable is all that is needed and there is no signal loss. I have mine mounted on the mizzen spreader though. I can grab wifi signals from at least 2 miles…. maybe more.
On my way down here – i was sailing smack dab in the middle of the chesepeake and I was grapping all kinds of free wifi from the western shore.
alan
unabated— On Wed, 12/30/09, Rich Carter < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Cheap LED bulbs use a series resistor to limit current and have a narrow operating range. Better bulbs use a current regulator and have wider voltage ranges. Unfortunately, they become increasingly innefficient when they are run at higher voltages. The regulator has to keep the current in the LED at a constant value. It consumes power to do this. The higher the voltage the more power that is consumed by the regulator. There are some switching regulators that are very efficient, but I don’t think they are used in LED circuits. The more typical current regulator uses a pair of transistors and a single resistor.
Running a small gauge wire to the lights may cause the lamp to run poorly at the low end of the voltage rating but will have no impact on brightness or efficiency at higher voltages. I don’t run my batteries down so the lights would probably never see below 11v. Budgeting a 10% loss in the wiring will raise the low operating voltage from 10v to 11v.
At least one thing is in our favor. As batteries discharge, their voltage drops off, so the LED lamps become more efficient as the battery bank gets lower.
Regards
RichQuote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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As your group’s LED expert (designer of the SensiBulb) I would agree with Rich at one level, but say that the majority of new LED products use switching regulators with hysteric feedback. The efficiency curves on these are reasonably flat, for example in the 85 to 90% range over their entire voltage range. They don’t really function as simple current regulators but rather provide a saw-tooth high frequency signal to the LEd; pulsing the LEDto maintain an *average* current . It is very important that the designer takes great care with filtering to keep from having this pulsed signal, over its entire frequency range, interfere with your HAM or SSB radios… but that is another story… Bottom line is that the brightness of the LED is maintained as a constant over a large voltage range and worrying about voltage drop on the wiring to the LED fixture is a poor allocation of copper.
Happy New Year,
Pete
On 12/31/2009 9:16 AM, Rich Carter wrote:
Quote:Cheap LED bulbs use a series resistor to limit current and have a narrow operating range. Better bulbs use a current regulator and have wider voltage ranges. Unfortunately, they become increasingly innefficient when they are run at higher voltages. The regulator has to keep the current in the LED at a constant value. It consumes power to do this. The higher the voltage the more power that is consumed by the regulator. There are some switching regulators that are very efficient, but I don’t think they are used in LED circuits. The more typical current regulator uses a pair of transistors and a single resistor.Running a small gauge wire to the lights may cause the lamp to run poorly at the low end of the voltage rating but will have no impact on brightness or efficiency at higher voltages. I don’t run my batteries down so the lights would probably never see below 11v. Budgeting a 10% loss in the wiring will raise the low operating voltage from 10v to 11v.
At least one thing is in our favor. As batteries discharge, their voltage drops off, so the LED lamps become more efficient as the battery bank gets lower.
Regards
RichQuote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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The units with switching regulators also have an inductive coil on the board which is usually a square part with two terminals and usually the largest thing on the board. Usually is the operative word here since there are a few regulators that have the coil built-in (and the chips are correspondingly very large) and there are some designs (SEPIC) that use two coils that can be wound on the same spool, so the inductor will have four terminals.
Driving high brightness LEDs without a switching regulator is a recipe for pre-mature failure and we have boxes and boxes of less expensive and more poorly engineered products that customers have brought to us that failed early… which they then replaced with SensiBulbs. Thermal management and RFI must be sell managed for LED life, consistent color and brightness over life and for use on boats, respectively.
Now you are and expert too ;^)
Pete
On 12/31/2009 1:07 PM, Rich Carter wrote:
Quote:That’s good to know Pete. I wasn’t aware that the switcher regulators were used. Maybe that’s why the bulbs are so expensive. How can I tell that the regulator is a switcher and not linear?Rich
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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If they are using single high output LEDs, I would assume they ARE using switching regulators.
On 12/31/2009 7:16 PM, Rich Carter wrote:
Quote:Pete
The LED lamps I’ve seen are sealed. I can’t see the regulator. Should I assume they lack a switching regulator?Rich
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Pete
As I recall at my last visit to West Marine, replacement LED bulbs were in clusters. I purchased one with a bayonette mount and took a look at it as best I could. I couldn’t see the regulator, but there was little room in the base. I assumed that it probably had just a resistor in the base, but perhaps a small regulator. I purchased only one to see how it compared with the existing lamps in terms of color and brilliance. I like the light, but I must have a dozen or more of the things scattered throughout the boat. At about $50 each, I don’t think I have a $600 problem to solve. I might reconsider that next season if my budget holds up.Rich
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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New lights coming from SCADtech soon that will change the price point…
On 12/31/2009 7:51 PM, Rich Carter wrote:
Quote:Pete
As I recall at my last visit to West Marine, replacement LED bulbs were in clusters. I purchased one with a bayonette mount and took a look at it as best I could. I couldn’t see the regulator, but there was little room in the base. I assumed that it probably had just a resistor in the base, but perhaps a small regulator. I purchased only one to see how it compared with the existing lamps in terms of color and brilliance. I like the light, but I must have a dozen or more of the things scattered throughout the boat. At about $50 each, I don’t think I have a $600 problem to solve. I might reconsider that next season if my budget holds up.Rich
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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