Overcharging problems

[Hull152_Patrick]

Not sure if I said or not but we tried to leave Coos Bay andhad to head back
due to additional problems with the charging, basically we were boiling our
startingf battery. Here’s a write up on what we think happened and how we
corrected it. May this not happen to you any of you… 🙂
http://deepplaya.com/?p=650

-p

—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlaya
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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick!

[unabated]

I have always have had the Alternator charging the house bank – it’s the  biggest need.
When you think about it, you only crank the start battery for a few seconds and really don’t take much power from it. SO .. I set it up to charge the house bank – the ACR is set up to turn ON when it sees a voltage condition from the Alternator over a certain level. Because the sense wire is on the house bank.  When that happens, the contacts close and charges the starting battery “at the same time”.
Probably 100% of the time the house bank is going to be at a much lower level (discharged) then the starting battery ( unless your really cranking and having trouble starting the engine. In which case your probably going to be using the battery switch to combine the the house bank and starting bank anyhow.
Alan
 

— On Sun, 9/25/11, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters wrote:

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[madsailor]

Hi Pat,

Alan is correct. Use the house bank for monitoring and charging, using the
ACR to charge the start battery. After all, you can start the engine with
the house bank, I hope, but not run ship’s loads with the engine start
battery.

Also, make sure you have all the same type of batteries. Don’t do flooded
for engine start and AGM for house. You may have mentioned the types, so
this could be an unuseful comment.

Good luck. It’s good to have 660 hours – I have that (almost) in 3 – 4D
batteries and seldom go much below about 80% charged – with the new solar
panels, not even that. I have two group 31s for emergency start and radio
operation. Normally, I use the house bank exclusively with the other tested
by starting the engine whenever I think about it.

Bob

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Alan wrote:

Quote:

I have always have had the Alternator charging the house bank – it’s the
biggest need.
When you think about it, you only crank the start battery for a few seconds
and really don’t take much power from it. SO .. I set it up to charge the
house bank – the ACR is set up to turn ON when it sees a voltage condition
from the Alternator over a certain level. Because the sense wire is on the
house bank. When that happens, the contacts close and charges the starting
battery “at the same time”.
Probably 100% of the time the house bank is going to be at a much lower
level (discharged) then the starting battery ( unless your really cranking
and having trouble starting the engine. In which case your probably going to
be using the battery switch to combine the the house bank and starting bank
anyhow.
Alan

— On Sun, 9/25/11, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters
wrote:

Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum

[quent]

I would be inclined to put both the VR and ACR sense wires on the alternator output, with the alternator output to the house bank and the ACR closing the circuit to the start battery when it senses alternator charging voltage.
Sounds like you might have a voltage drop problem between the battery being sensed by the VR and the alternator. This would cause the battery accepting less current to be at higher voltage. Try checking the connections and make sure the wire guage taking the charge current to the house bank is adequate, and check the voltages at the alternator, the house bank and the starter when you are in “cooking” mode.
Quent

[petedd]

Is your regulator set to the right battery type?

On 9/25/2011 9:53 PM, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters wrote:

Not sure if I said or not but we tried to leave Coos Bay andhad to head back
due to additional problems with the charging, basically we were boiling our
startingf battery. Here’s a write up on what we think happened and how we
corrected it. May this not happen to you any of you… 🙂
http://deepplaya.com/?p=650

-p

—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlaya
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing list

http://server12.websitehostserver.net/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org

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[Hull152_Patrick]

Thanks for all the ideas let me try and answer the questions and provide a
bit more background.

I originally thought you were supposed to put all the charge inputs on the
house and use the ACR to charge the starting battery as well. The guy here
at the local Chandlery convinced me it was more important to ensure the
starting battery was serviced first in case of a failure of the ACR, which
made sense to me. So we wired the alternator to the starting battery. We now
definitely know it was wrong to have the 12V sensor wire and the charge
loads on different sides of the ACR. Read about that in the blog post. The
question now is it OK to rely on the ACR to charge the house battery…
everyone seems to say we shouldn’t do it that way (including Rich at Balmar)
but I’ve not heard a technical reason why. Seems like as long as the ACR
combines you’re charging everything anyway… The ACR isnt’ a “smart”
combiner that uncombines when the 2nd bank is full.

Anyway, I am thinking I’ll go that route anyway so we’re in compliance with
the normal way. In fact, I’m thinking I might get rid of the ACR from the
system and add a smarter combiner like the Balmar
Duo-Charge or
Xantrex Echo Chargesomeone
else mentioned. They seem even smarter than the ACR. Going to
confirm with Monty today and make a decision before shipping for the day
ends.

*Quent*, I don’t think it was a voltage drop issue. I used 2/0 wire all
under 12′ lengths. The original problem was a timing issue of the ACR not
combining the batteries while the regulator was sensing one bank and
charging another.

*Pete*, the regulator is on the defaults now which is the Universal Factory
Program (UFP) which should be fine for all batteries. I’ll switch to the
flooded mode for sure, but the UFP shouldn’t cause any issues.

Someone asked about the type of the starting battery. The new starting
battery is a sealed lead acid. It’s not an AGM.

Like I mentioned I think we’re going to wire everything to the house bank
and use the ACR or a smarter combiner to charge the starting battery.

Looks like the weather is bad till Thursday, so plenty of time to get this
right! 🙂
-p

—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlaya

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Robert Fine wrote:

Hi Pat,

Alan is correct. Use the house bank for monitoring and charging, using the
ACR to charge the start battery. After all, you can start the engine with
the house bank, I hope, but not run ship’s loads with the engine start
battery.

Also, make sure you have all the same type of batteries. Don’t do flooded
for engine start and AGM for house. You may have mentioned the types, so
this could be an unuseful comment.

Good luck. It’s good to have 660 hours – I have that (almost) in 3 – 4D
batteries and seldom go much below about 80% charged – with the new solar
panels, not even that. I have two group 31s for emergency start and radio
operation. Normally, I use the house bank exclusively with the other
tested
by starting the engine whenever I think about it.

Bob

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Alan wrote:

I have always have had the Alternator charging the house bank – it’s the
biggest need.
When you think about it, you only crank the start battery for a few

seconds

and really don’t take much power from it. SO .. I set it up to charge the
house bank – the ACR is set up to turn ON when it sees a voltage

condition

from the Alternator over a certain level. Because the sense wire is on

the

house bank. When that happens, the contacts close and charges the

starting

battery “at the same time”.
Probably 100% of the time the house bank is going to be at a much lower
level (discharged) then the starting battery ( unless your really

cranking

and having trouble starting the engine. In which case your probably going

to

be using the battery switch to combine the the house bank and starting

bank

Quote:

anyhow.
Alan

— On Sun, 9/25/11, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters
wrote:

Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum

Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick!

[john stevenson]

Patrick,
Just so you know you have company, my ACR is wired as yours was – alternator
output to the start bank, then to the house bank when the starting battery
voltage > 13.1 VDC. Like you, I thought it made sense to treat the start
battery as the critical bank.

Then the original combiner (a Yandina, not Blue Sea) failed. In the middle
of the night my crew woke me to say the entire boat just went dark – chart
plotter, autopilot, instruments and lights. I checked the batteries and
sure enough the house bank was under 10.5 VDC and the starter bank was
really happy at 13.6 VDC. It took me a few minutes to realize the combiner
had failed and only the starter bank was getting a charge. Then I threw the
switch to combine the batteries on the backside of the combiner. A few
seconds later all of the electronics were back in operation and I could go
back to sleep.

Strangely enough, when I replaced the failed Yandina with the Blue Sea ACR I
still kept the Starter bank as the primary for charging. I still wasn’t
convinced it was the wrong way to go. Subsequent thinking and reading on
this issue has convinced me I have it backwards, just haven’t gotten around
to re-wiring. I also bought the remote control switch for the Blue Sea ACR
to manually combine the batteries. That hasn’t been installed either. I do
like to think hard and long on these projects. Some would call it
procrastination. I prefer to think of it as the thoroughness of a
craftsman.

Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters <
> wrote:

Thanks for all the ideas let me try and answer the questions and provide a
bit more background.

I originally thought you were supposed to put all the charge inputs on the
house and use the ACR to charge the starting battery as well. The guy here
at the local Chandlery convinced me it was more important to ensure the
starting battery was serviced first in case of a failure of the ACR, which
made sense to me. So we wired the alternator to the starting battery. We
now
definitely know it was wrong to have the 12V sensor wire and the charge
loads on different sides of the ACR. Read about that in the blog post. The
question now is it OK to rely on the ACR to charge the house battery…
everyone seems to say we shouldn’t do it that way (including Rich at
Balmar)
but I’ve not heard a technical reason why. Seems like as long as the ACR
combines you’re charging everything anyway… The ACR isnt’ a “smart”
combiner that uncombines when the 2nd bank is full.

Anyway, I am thinking I’ll go that route anyway so we’re in compliance with
the normal way. In fact, I’m thinking I might get rid of the ACR from the
system and add a smarter combiner like the Balmar
Duo-Charge or
Xantrex Echo Charge<
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/auxiliary-battery-charger.aspx

someone

else mentioned. They seem even smarter than the ACR. Going to
confirm with Monty today and make a decision before shipping for the day
ends.

*Quent*, I don’t think it was a voltage drop issue. I used 2/0 wire all
under 12′ lengths. The original problem was a timing issue of the ACR not
combining the batteries while the regulator was sensing one bank and
charging another.

*Pete*, the regulator is on the defaults now which is the Universal Factory
Program (UFP) which should be fine for all batteries. I’ll switch to the
flooded mode for sure, but the UFP shouldn’t cause any issues.

Someone asked about the type of the starting battery. The new starting
battery is a sealed lead acid. It’s not an AGM.

Like I mentioned I think we’re going to wire everything to the house bank
and use the ACR or a smarter combiner to charge the starting battery.

Looks like the weather is bad till Thursday, so plenty of time to get this
right! 🙂
-p

—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlaya

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Robert Fine wrote:

Hi Pat,

Alan is correct. Use the house bank for monitoring and charging, using

the

ACR to charge the start battery. After all, you can start the engine

with

the house bank, I hope, but not run ship’s loads with the engine start
battery.

Also, make sure you have all the same type of batteries. Don’t do

flooded

for engine start and AGM for house. You may have mentioned the types, so
this could be an unuseful comment.

Good luck. It’s good to have 660 hours – I have that (almost) in 3 – 4D
batteries and seldom go much below about 80% charged – with the new solar
panels, not even that. I have two group 31s for emergency start and

radio

operation. Normally, I use the house bank exclusively with the other
tested
by starting the engine whenever I think about it.

Bob

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Alan wrote:

I have always have had the Alternator charging the house bank – it’s

the

biggest need.
When you think about it, you only crank the start battery for a few

seconds

and really don’t take much power from it. SO .. I set it up to charge

the

house bank – the ACR is set up to turn ON when it sees a voltage

condition

from the Alternator over a certain level. Because the sense wire is on

the

house bank. When that happens, the contacts close and charges the

starting

battery “at the same time”.
Probably 100% of the time the house bank is going to be at a much lower
level (discharged) then the starting battery ( unless your really

cranking

and having trouble starting the engine. In which case your probably

going

to

be using the battery switch to combine the the house bank and starting

bank

Quote:

anyhow.
Alan

— On Sun, 9/25/11, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters
wrote:

Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum

[Hull152_Patrick]

The guy at Englund is really convinced you charge the starting battery
first, it was actually getting a little uncomfortable talking about it.

The guy from Balmar was adamant that the MC614 was a house bank charge
regulator (huh?) and we should be using a Duo-Charge (or the ACR) to charge
the start battery, not the other way around.

Everyone seems baffled the ACR could have caused this but in reading the
manual I think I see why:

“Internal time delay prevents relay action for transient conditions, voltage

must be within range for approximately one minute to cause closure, relay
will open when overvoltage is detected for approximately 15 seconds.”

When I reproduced this at the dock, the voltage definitely ramped up in less
than a minute. Moving the sensor wire to be on the same side as the charge
voltage, regardless if its the start or house bank, will eliminate the
regulator from doing that.

I think I’m going to get out of dodge as-is and get some more input in
California.

-p

—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlaya

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 1:32 PM, John Stevenson wrote:

Patrick,
Just so you know you have company, my ACR is wired as yours was –
alternator
output to the start bank, then to the house bank when the starting battery
voltage > 13.1 VDC. Like you, I thought it made sense to treat the start
battery as the critical bank.

Then the original combiner (a Yandina, not Blue Sea) failed. In the middle
of the night my crew woke me to say the entire boat just went dark – chart
plotter, autopilot, instruments and lights. I checked the batteries and
sure enough the house bank was under 10.5 VDC and the starter bank was
really happy at 13.6 VDC. It took me a few minutes to realize the combiner
had failed and only the starter bank was getting a charge. Then I threw
the
switch to combine the batteries on the backside of the combiner. A few
seconds later all of the electronics were back in operation and I could go
back to sleep.

Strangely enough, when I replaced the failed Yandina with the Blue Sea ACR
I
still kept the Starter bank as the primary for charging. I still wasn’t
convinced it was the wrong way to go. Subsequent thinking and reading on
this issue has convinced me I have it backwards, just haven’t gotten around
to re-wiring. I also bought the remote control switch for the Blue Sea ACR
to manually combine the batteries. That hasn’t been installed either. I
do
like to think hard and long on these projects. Some would call it
procrastination. I prefer to think of it as the thoroughness of a
craftsman.

Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters <
> wrote:

Thanks for all the ideas let me try and answer the questions and provide

a

bit more background.

I originally thought you were supposed to put all the charge inputs on

the

house and use the ACR to charge the starting battery as well. The guy

here

at the local Chandlery convinced me it was more important to ensure the
starting battery was serviced first in case of a failure of the ACR,

which

made sense to me. So we wired the alternator to the starting battery. We
now
definitely know it was wrong to have the 12V sensor wire and the charge
loads on different sides of the ACR. Read about that in the blog post.

The

question now is it OK to rely on the ACR to charge the house battery…
everyone seems to say we shouldn’t do it that way (including Rich at
Balmar)
but I’ve not heard a technical reason why. Seems like as long as the ACR
combines you’re charging everything anyway… The ACR isnt’ a “smart”
combiner that uncombines when the 2nd bank is full.

Anyway, I am thinking I’ll go that route anyway so we’re in compliance

with

the normal way. In fact, I’m thinking I might get rid of the ACR from the
system and add a smarter combiner like the Balmar
Duo-Charge or
Xantrex Echo Charge<

http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/auxiliary-battery-charger.aspx

someone

else mentioned. They seem even smarter than the ACR. Going to
confirm with Monty today and make a decision before shipping for the day
ends.

*Quent*, I don’t think it was a voltage drop issue. I used 2/0 wire all
under 12′ lengths. The original problem was a timing issue of the ACR not
combining the batteries while the regulator was sensing one bank and
charging another.

*Pete*, the regulator is on the defaults now which is the Universal

Factory

Program (UFP) which should be fine for all batteries. I’ll switch to the
flooded mode for sure, but the UFP shouldn’t cause any issues.

Someone asked about the type of the starting battery. The new starting
battery is a sealed lead acid. It’s not an AGM.

Like I mentioned I think we’re going to wire everything to the house bank
and use the ACR or a smarter combiner to charge the starting battery.

Looks like the weather is bad till Thursday, so plenty of time to get

this

right! 🙂
-p

—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlaya

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Robert Fine wrote:

Hi Pat,

Alan is correct. Use the house bank for monitoring and charging, using

the

ACR to charge the start battery. After all, you can start the engine

with

the house bank, I hope, but not run ship’s loads with the engine start
battery.

Also, make sure you have all the same type of batteries. Don’t do

flooded

for engine start and AGM for house. You may have mentioned the types,

so

this could be an unuseful comment.

Good luck. It’s good to have 660 hours – I have that (almost) in 3 –

4D

batteries and seldom go much below about 80% charged – with the new

solar

panels, not even that. I have two group 31s for emergency start and

radio

operation. Normally, I use the house bank exclusively with the other
tested
by starting the engine whenever I think about it.

Bob

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Alan wrote:

I have always have had the Alternator charging the house bank – it’s

the

biggest need.
When you think about it, you only crank the start battery for a few

seconds

and really don’t take much power from it. SO .. I set it up to charge

the

house bank – the ACR is set up to turn ON when it sees a voltage

condition

from the Alternator over a certain level. Because the sense wire is

on

the

house bank. When that happens, the contacts close and charges the

starting

battery “at the same time”.
Probably 100% of the time the house bank is going to be at a much

lower

level (discharged) then the starting battery ( unless your really

cranking

and having trouble starting the engine. In which case your probably

going

to

be using the battery switch to combine the the house bank and

starting

bank

anyhow.
Alan

— On Sun, 9/25/11, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters <

Quote:

Quote:

wrote:

Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum

Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick!

[quent]

Regarding which bank to hook to the switched side of the combiner, if you have a large house bank, anchor for a couple days, then start the engine, the house bank is going to suck up most of the alternator output. The start battery, if everything is working right, will be already well charged and quickly replace the small discharge required to start the engine.
I really don’t think you want the much larger current to the house bank going through the switch in the combiner.
Since the VR sense lead needs to be on the alternator side of the combiner switch, any voltage drop in the combiner will reduce charging efficiency on the switched bank. No big deal on the start battery, but a problem on the house bank
You might also want to get one of those IR thermometers and check the connections for heat.
John: Jumper cables.
Quent

[Hull152_Patrick]

Checking the heat is a good suggestion. I’m going to leave everything as-is
for now. I think we’re going to upgrade our Solar capacity and if needed
replace our batteries in San Diego so I’ll make this all “right” (whetever
that means) at that time.

-p

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 4:14 PM, quent wrote:

Regarding which bank to hook to the switched side of the combiner, if you
have a large house bank, anchor for a couple days, then start the engine,
the house bank is going to suck up most of the alternator output. The start
battery, if everything is working right, will be already well charged and
quickly replace the small discharge required to start the engine.
I really don’t think you want the much larger current to the house bank
going through the switch in the combiner.
Since the VR sense lead needs to be on the alternator side of the combiner
switch, any voltage drop in the combiner will reduce charging efficiency on
the switched bank. No big deal on the start battery, but a problem on the
house bank
You might also want to get one of those IR thermometers and check the
connections for heat.
John: Jumper cables.
Quent

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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick!

[Chuck Ruble]

Patrick, stick with the ACR. It is pretty simple and if I’m not mistake does not have the amperage limitations the Duo-Charge has.

Chuck

[Author]

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