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The other day I pulled the oil pan off my cleaned up W58 (I had to get a
stronger engine stand before I felt safe pulling wrenches on this beast).
This morning I pulled some of the rod and main bearing caps to find some
burned and gouged bearings. What a bummer. The oil pump was also out
of spec (though the lobe/lobe clearance and outer cam/case specs seem
backwards in the manual – anyone know which should be greater?)So now I am debating if I should do the rebuild (I can do all the engine
work myself) or go for the re-power.The darn thing is that I have spares of so much stuff for the W58
including pumps, starters, etc. I guess I could part everything out if
I went with a re-power.How are those Cummins conversions going that were mentioned here several
months ago?Yanmar sounds like the way to go but I don’t think I want to have a
turbo on board.Rebuild kit (Mazda XA) is about two boat units. Another $300 for the
oil pump.Thoughts? (Prayers?)
Fuel tank comes out tomorrow…. took two hours to clean the engine
bay… Did not know that the engine bed was white until today!Pete
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Pete
If you haven’t, take a close look at my repower cost spreadsheet.
http://www.richardcarter.net/boat/pix/RepowerCost.xlsThe engine isn’t the most expensive part of a rebuild. Once you get into
it, one thing leads to another and soon your up over $20k in parts. On the
flip side is tossing a pile of money into an engine that may soon no longer
have parts available. I don’t know how long Westerbeke will continue to
support the engine nor how long they’ll still be in business. Maybe there’s
an alternate parts source. If you can’t find one, beware of relying on
Westerbeke in the future.Keeping with an engine that has the same power range (max RPM) can avoid
replacing the drive-train. Bear in mind that your V-drive, shaft, and prop
may need replacement in the near future anyway. If you make compromises
today to avoid replacing these parts you may endup buying them anyway in a
few short years. You’ll have to live with the decision for quite a while.
I had to take out a small loan to pay for my repower so I decided to do the
whole thing. You’ll be into replacing the exhaust and fuel-tank anyway.
Probably control cables too. Then there are the zillion fasteners, hose
clamps, and other things that just add-up. A Yanmar will run at a faster
RPM and therefore needs to have a different gear ratio. You can run it with
the same gear ratio, but you’ll cavitate your prop at high speeds. This may
restrict your top speed.I went with the turbo and don’t regret it. The difference in cost was
minimal and it lets me run the engine at a low throttle setting at cruising
speed. I don’t think the turbo boost will shorten engine life in the
slightest. We have two identical engines in our yacht club launches and
they have a few thousand hours on them. The turbo is overill however for
the 424. If you want to save a boat unit you can go with the naturally
aspirated engine and push your throttle up a little higher.The Cummins is probably a much less expensive solution. Since the power
curve and footprint are close to the Westerbeke the repower is simpler.
Just don’t expect much support from the guy who runs TAD. His interpersonal
skills are not very good. I don’t know how the two engines compare. I’d
like an opportunity to inspect a Cummins installation if the opportunity
arises. I would have bought that engine if it were’t for the questionable
service.Rich
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I’m not a mechanic. So nursing my boat’s original Westerbeke from port to port was never a consideration for me. I knew I’d repower before I even bought the boat, and negotiated for her accordingly. Therefore, the repower was one of the first things I did.
Having had a trouble-free Yanmar in my last cruising boat, I repowered Silver Heels with a naturally aspirated Yanmar 54 HP 4JH4E. I paid the local Yanmar dealer to install it and he did a good job, re-building the beds and even fabricating a handsome fiberglass elbow to lead the exhaust around a sharp turn. I kept the boat’s original (new-rebuilt) Paragon transmission, the (newly serviced) Walter V-drive and the shafts. I did have the propeller re-pitched for the new engine. (It was originally 20LH13. Now it’s 20LH11.) Contrary to Rich’s experience, I have no cavitation running at any speed and am completely satisfied with the set up.
I’m not qualified to advise, or to say this is better than that where engines are concerned. But I do know when something works all the time, every time. I’ve yet to hear of a sailor who regrets having a Yanmar.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Pete,
What it boils down to is how you feel about rebuilding your engine and where your resources could be better spent.
I was trying to find out what Mazda engine the 58 is, and since you seem to have found out it's an XA, that means you can purchase the kits from Mazda diesel dealers rather than Westerbeke. I suspect you've found that out, but if not, there are diesel engine places that sell Mazda parts. (parts-supply.com)
From my perspective, rebuilding is almost always less expensive than new – if that weren't the case, over-the-road truckers would replace their engines on a regular basis. They don't – They get major rebuilds every 700,000 to 1,000,000 miles. That says a lot about the strength of the engines.
A bigger question is how badly the engine needs it – wiped bearings will lead to other even less desirable engine failures. If there is no scoring on the crankshaft, the crank and cam throwout is still within specs, and there is no heavy scoring on the pistons or cylinders you should consider a rebuild – if you've been running with a broken ring, for instance, the cylinder may need replacing. I don't know if that's possible on this block.
So, two factors should make your decision, 1; general overall state of the engine, and 2; whether your resources like time and money are better spent with a new installation or a rebuild.
For what it's worth (and that's not much), I agree with Tor about Yanmars just running. That's true until they don't. Then, like newer Volvos, they are a pain in the butt to get going again. The ones I've dealt with have nearly impossible access to the impeller, but newer ones like Tor's may not have that problem.
I'm not sure if Beta Marine makes an engine (marinizes) for our boat, but it has a lot of advantages, 1; it's a Kubota and parts are easy and cheap to get, 2; they are usually less expensive than other marine engines of similar size, 3; from what I've heard they provide decent support for self-installers. Also, you can get them from dealers that are not TAD.
Really, at the end, though, if you feel like rebuilding the W-58, I'd say go for it – if you run 500 hours a year you should get another 10 years without a rebuild.
Best of luck! If not, I call dibs on water pump, starter, and coolers!
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Hey Pete-
The repower arguement has been pretty well stated, so I’ll try the rebuild arguement. Basically, it is cheaper, and it fits. However, it will never be as good as a new engine. You will still have all the old Westerbeke aluminum parts. I bought a W-58 exhaust manifold several years ago. It was $600.
Have you pulled the head? If you have any significant head problem, that is a decisionmaker, since they are no longer availble from Westerbeke. That includes valve seats which are not replaceable. I’d also pull the t-stat housing and look for signs of a clogged up cooling system. If PO didn’t change the oil, he probably didn’t change antifreeze either.
The Mazda XA gasket set won’t fit. The W-58 base engine was a Perkins based on a Mazda design, but quite different. Incidently, the Westerbeke service manual has the W-52 and W-58 heads switched.
I removed and replaced our W-58. Fixed (or tried to) a few oil leaks including the rmb, and replaced the exhaust manifold and t-stat housings, but did not pull the head or check the bearings. We have a low hours engine. With the problems you have, I think we would repower, maybe with one of the new Kubota based engines.
Given the number of P-424 owners who motor along at 2000 rpm or so, I think 50 hp might be sufficient. I think a turbo is an unnecessary complication.
Quent
Clairebuoyant, #132 -
Pete, think of it as insurance (we all complain about the price but deep down know what is is there for). A re-power will give you peace of mind. You may recover some of the funds when you sell the boat, a quicker sale more likely. A re-build on a marine engine while straight forward isn't the same as an over the road rebuild. The guy that has been rebuilding Detroit Diesel 871's for a living could do it with his eyes closed and probably has a thousand under his belt. A W58 might be the first one your shop has seen, not so say it won't be right but how will you really know?
I rebuilt my W60 for the experience. I'll probably re-power with a 4JH4E soon and sell the W60 as is. For trips around the bay Winona does just fine and my towing insurance backs her up. Off shore to distant anchorages, I don't want to have to be concerned about it.
If it's running and it does what you want it to do, keep her clean, feed fresh fuel and change the oil. Check the valves and service the injectors. Run it till it stops, it might very well prove to be like the cat you thought was going to pass on at 15 and now at 20 is still filling the litter box (and running up a few vet bills).Chuck
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
Pete,
What it boils down to is …
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Hi Pete,
If you do decide to change engines, I would be delighted to buy the entire exhaust manifold assembly as mine is leaking. Keep us updated.
Thanks,
Dave & Pat
Doris E. #178Chuck Ruble wrote:
Pete, think of it as insurance (we all complain about the price but deep down know what is is there for). A re-power will give you peace of mind. You may recover some of the funds when you sell the boat, a quicker sale more likely. A re-build on a marine engine while straight forward isn’t the same as an over the road rebuild. The guy that has been rebuilding Detroit Diesel 871’s for a living could do it with his eyes closed and probably has a thousand under his belt. A W58 might be the first one your shop has seen, not so say it won’t be right but how will you really know?
I rebuilt my W60 for the experience. I’ll probably re-power with a 4JH4E soon and sell the W60 as is. For trips around the bay Winona does just fine and my towing insurance backs her up. Off shore to distant anchorages, I don’t want to have to be concerned about it.
If it’s running and it does what you want it to do, keep her clean, feed fresh fuel and change the oil. Check the valves and service the injectors. Run it till it stops, it might very well prove to be like the cat you thought was going to pass on at 15 and now at 20 is still filling the litter box (and running up a few vet bills).Chuck
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
Pete,
What it boils down to is …
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http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/boa/1483084705.html
From S Florida Craig List. I don’t know this person, but those of you with W58’s may want to contact her.
Hank S.
424 ShayBOUGHT NEW ENGINE AND HAVE VARIOUS PARTS FROM FORMER WESTERBEKE 58 DIESEL ENGINE
STARTER MOTOR WITH SOLENOID
OIL COOLER
ALTERNATOR
MANIFOLD
ENGINE HARNESS
GLOW PLUGS
ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP
FAN BELTS
AND MORE
MAKE ME AN OFFER FOR ANY PARTS
CALL LORRAINE 954 562 0680 -
I can’t state from experience that the Yanmar 54 will cavitate. I can only estimate that it will based on converstations with my propeller manufacturer and information I got when studying the repower problem. It Tor states that he gets good performance from his 54 with the same 2:1 gear ratio I’ll take his word for it.
Rich
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Thanks to all for the feedback. I will keep you informed.
The tank came out today. Much lighter than I expects and it went right
through the c-way, but just barely. The wood of the cradle was
saturated and smelled of diesel. Got most of the cradle removed today
and measured for alternate tank positions so I can put my
generator/scuba unit and batteries where the tank used to be.Pete
dave jones wrote:
Hi Pete,
If you do decide to change engines, I would be delighted to buy the
entire exhaust manifold assembly as mine is leaking. Keep us updated.Thanks,
Dave & Pat
Doris E. #178Chuck Ruble wrote:
Pete, think of it as insurance (we all complain about the price but
deep down know what is is there for). A re-power will give you peace
of mind. You may recover some of the funds when you sell the boat, a
quicker sale more likely. A re-build on a marine engine while
straight forward isn’t the same as an over the road rebuild. The guy
that has been rebuilding Detroit Diesel 871’s for a living could do
it with his eyes closed and probably has a thousand under his belt.
A W58 might be the first one your shop has seen, not so say it won’t
be right but how will you really know?I rebuilt my W60 for the experience. I’ll probably re-power with a
4JH4E soon and sell the W60 as is. For trips around the bay Winona
does just fine and my towing insurance backs her up. Off shore to
distant anchorages, I don’t want to have to be concerned about it.
If it’s running and it does what you want it to do, keep her clean,
feed fresh fuel and change the oil. Check the valves and service the
injectors. Run it till it stops, it might very well prove to be like
the cat you thought was going to pass on at 15 and now at 20 is still
filling the litter box (and running up a few vet bills).Chuck
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Robert Fine <
> wrote:Pete,
What it boils down to is …
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Pete, I’ll chime in with my 2 cents also. I just repowered with a Kubota marinized by Phasor. I didn’t want a turbo and also wanted a slower rpm engine than what is currently available. The V2403 has almost the exact same specs as my old W60: torque, rpm, hp etc. It is 200 lbs lighter and MUCH smaller. I can sit between the engine and fuel tank. If you decide to repower and want more info you can e mail me at : isbound@aol.com. Good luck, Cindy
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