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I want to replace my 1986 Furuno radar. Currently I dont have a chart plotter as I wanted to get confident with traditional paper charts before relying on electronics. The admarial is opposed to a chartplotter but I believe she has been convinced it is a good idea.
Right now considering either Garmin 4208 with 4kw 18″ HD vs Northstar M84 with Broadband. I like the concept of the reduced power consumption. But hope to get off shoe and am trying to weigh the power vs stom cell visibality of pule radar. opinions?
Currently sail in fog prone New England.Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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I own a Raymarine C-80 and a set of Pathfinders (Raytheon). If I had to do it over I would most definitely go with the Garmin system. A 2KW radar is more than enough for you. Also, the Garmin is about 2/3rds the price of a Raymarine.
The Garmin interface is easier and richer, the installation is simpler, especially if you're going to have multiple displays (one at nav station and one in cockpit), and XM weather is far, far superior to the Raymarine Sirius weather.
If you go with Garmin, you will be nothing but happy.
That's my two cents…
Bob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Eric Lorentzon wrote:
I want to replace my 1986 Furuno radar. Currently I dont have a chart plotter as I wanted to get confident with traditional paper charts before relying on electronics. The admarial is opposed to a chartplotter but I believe she has been convinced it is a good idea.
Right now considering either Garmin 4208 with 4kw 18″ HD vs Northstar M84 with Broadband. I like the concept of the reduced power consumption. But hope to get off shoe and am trying to weigh the power vs stom cell visibality of pule radar. opinions?
Currently sail in fog prone New England.—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFinePost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Eric
I originally purchased a RADAR unit in 1986 for my 424. It may be the same model as you presently have. I replaced it a few years back with a JRC color RADAR/chartplotter and never regretted it. JRC makes the guts of many of the RADAR units such as Raymarine but are less costly. JRC stopped selling under their own name. Distributors put them out on clearance. I bought mine for about $1300. This is the only distributor I could find with a websearch. They want too much money for what they have in stock. If you keep your eye out you might find one for a little over a grand.
http://www.boatersworld.com/bm/RadarAutopilots/JRC/316300565.htmlI mounted my display in the cockpit. I put a teak mounting panel on the binnacle guard. I’m not entirely pleased with the instrument mount and may redo it, but it works.
http://www.richardcarter.net/Cockpit.htmlI too cruise in the Northeast. I really like having the RADAR/chartplotter at the wheel. I have a laptop below that runs Nobletec which does a lot better job as a chartplotter but running below to navigate is a pain. I rarely need the RADAR but use it when its convenient. Power consumption isn’t a big deal. The FURUNO used a lot more power. If your budget is limited, go for an inexpenive unit and skip the bells and whistles. Most collisions occur at closer distances than 12 miles. Having a long-range and powerful RADAR is of limited use. My Furuno was a better RADAR unit but it sucked down the watts and I had to mount it below. The JRC works just fine and doesn’t run down my batteries.
Don’t forget to budget for charts. The c-map cartridges are expensive.
Regards
Rich
Original Message
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According to Ben Ellison (http://www.Panbo.com) the pulse systems to indeed have less range and because of that less of an ability to view weather but they do have HUGE gains in <1NM resolution. If you're mostly concerned about navigating fog. I think the pulse system is for you. If you're main concern is offshore I'd either go with a traditional RADAR or wait a year and see if the pulse systems improve their range.
I’m starting to do some reasearch on PC based Navigation Software and I’m looking at which ones have RADAR overlay. You might want to check that list out.
http://www.deepplaya.com/wiki/Navigation-Software.ashx-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comFrom:
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:55 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Radar / Chartplotterp { margin: 0; } Eric
I originally purchased a RADAR unit in 1986 for my 424. It may be the same model as you presently have. I replaced it a few years back with a JRC color RADAR/chartplotter and never regretted it. JRC makes the guts of many of the RADAR units such as Raymarine but are less costly. JRC stopped selling under their own name. Distributors put them out on clearance. I bought mine for about $1300. This is the only distributor I could find with a websearch. They want too much money for what they have in stock. If you keep your eye out you might find one for a little over a grand.
http://www.boatersworld.com/bm/RadarAutopilots/JRC/316300565.htmlI mounted my display in the cockpit. I put a teak mounting panel on the binnacle guard. I’m not entirely pleased with the instrument mount and may redo it, but it works.
http://www.richardcarter.net/Cockpit.htmlI too cruise in the Northeast. I really like having the RADAR/chartplotter at the wheel. I have a laptop below that runs Nobletec which does a lot better job as a chartplotter but running below to navigate is a pain. I rarely need the RADAR but use it when its convenient. Power consumption isn’t a big deal. The FURUNO used a lot more power. If your budget is limited, go for an inexpenive unit and skip the bells and whistles. Most collisions occur at closer distances than 12 miles. Having a long-range and powerful RADAR is of limited use. My Furuno was a better RADAR unit but it sucked down the watts and I had to mount it below. The JRC works just fine and doesn’t run down my batteries.
Don’t forget to budget for charts. The c-map cartridges are expensive.
Regards
Rich
Original Message
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
I just bought a Raymarine C90w. I sail in the Bahamas and the Navionics charts for the Exumas are terrible. They should come with a warning: Do not use for navigation! I have contacted Navionics, but they seem a bit tone deaf. I am keeping my Explorer charts close at hand! The only reason I bought a chartplotter was to display my new AIS. I don’t have a radar and hopefully the AIS will help identify ships crossing the Gulf Stream. Good luck, Cindy Stein s/v Island Bound
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Patrick,
That's a good start on evaluating the PC-based chart plotters. I wish I had used similar logic in my selection, I just backed into my choices based on price. For your evaluation I would also record what chart types each supports (e.g., ENC57, Raster, C-Map, Navionics, etc.). For example I really like the way Coast Explorer handles NOAA ENCs and knits them with the RNCs. However, CE does not support (or at least didn't the last time I checked) any of the proprietary formats (C-Map/Navionics). So it is a great product for coastal navigation around the US, but not much use if you head to Mexico or the Caribbean. For US coastal cruising I'll stick with Fugawi, although I really don't like the product. At least it will support Navionics for cruising outside of the US.
I recommend you take a look at Software On Board (SOB) from DigiBoat. It used to be the cheapest of the quality plotters ($70), I think it is now over $200. It only supports C-Map, so not the best solution for US coastal cruising, but it is one of the most robust products I've looked at. I much prefer it to Fugawi (which I have) or MaxSea and Nobeltec (which I don't). When I helped a few cruisers implement AIS while in Europe on both products I found them to be confusing and very counter-intuitive as well as vastly overpriced. I used SOB exclusively on my PC when cruising Europe and then last winter in the Bahamas (Navionics is worse than useless in the Bahamas).
One thing to keep in mind is how will you use the chart plotter while in the cockpit. That is why I ended up with both the Raymarine plotter (for the cockpit) and the PC plotter for serious navigation at the nav desk. Having the Raymarine plotter visible in the cockpit is great when making a landfall or entering a harbor. Off-shore it is just an entertainment tool for the night watch.Eric,
I have the Raymarine Pathfinder radar and C120 display using Navionics charts. I am satisfied enough with it (or short enough of expendable funds) to stick with it. Like Bob, if I were to make that purchase today it would likely be different – probably Furuno or Garmin. Raymarine seems to be concentrating on the mega-yacht business rather than we small-yacht cruisers. As others have pointed out, I will hold onto what I have until the newer technology improves.
With regard to paper charts. It's been years since I last pulled out one of my paper charts and they are now way out of date. The next time I go to a SSCA GAM I'll probably dump them. I think you are on the right track to practice navigation using conventional charts, but very few cruisers I know use them underway. The common practice ( or at least my practice) is to collect a few charts of specific harbors you intend to visit or represent harbors of refuge and up-to-date cruising guides along with the electronic charts. New paper charts now are just too expensive.On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Patrick Walters wrote:
Quote:According to Ben Ellison (http://www.Panbo.com) the pulse systems to indeed have less range and because of that less of an ability to view weather but they do have HUGE gains in <1NM resolution. If you're mostly concerned about navigating fog. I think the pulse system is for you. If you're main concern is offshore I'd either go with a traditional RADAR or wait a year and see if the pulse systems improve their range.I'm starting to do some reasearch on PC based Navigation Software and I'm looking at which ones have RADAR overlay. You might want to check that list out.
http://www.deepplaya.com/wiki/Navigation-Software.ashx-p
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s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comFrom: ()
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:55 AM
To: ()
Subject: Re: Radar / ChartplotterEric
I originally purchased a RADAR unit in 1986 for my 424. It may be the same model as you presently have. I replaced it a few years back with a JRC color RADAR/chartplotter and never regretted it. JRC makes the guts of many of the RADAR units such as Raymarine but are less costly. JRC stopped selling under their own name. Distributors put them out on clearance. I bought mine for about $1300. This is the only distributor I could find with a websearch. They want too much money for what they have in stock. If you keep your eye out you might find one for a little over a grand.
http://www.boatersworld.com/bm/RadarAutopilots/JRC/316300565.htmlI mounted my display in the cockpit. I put a teak mounting panel on the binnacle guard. I'm not entirely pleased with the instrument mount and may redo it, but it works.
http://www.richardcarter.net/Cockpit.htmlI too cruise in the Northeast. I really like having the RADAR/chartplotter at the wheel. I have a laptop below that runs Nobletec which does a lot better job as a chartplotter but running below to navigate is a pain. I rarely need the RADAR but use it when its convenient. Power consumption isn't a big deal. The FURUNO used a lot more power. If your budget is limited, go for an inexpenive unit and skip the bells and whistles. Most collisions occur at closer distances than 12 miles. Having a long-range and powerful RADAR is of limited use. My Furuno was a better RADAR unit but it sucked down the watts and I had to mount it below. The JRC works just fine and doesn't run down my batteries.
Don't forget to budget for charts. The c-map cartridges are expensive.
Regards
Rich
Original Message
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We have a Raymarine C-80 w/ 2kw RADAR, AIS in a Navpod at the wheel. I agree the Navionics charts are pretty bad, partly because they are old by the time Navionics gets them to market, and partly because they are full of errors, esp. on the ICWW. Nothing beats NOAA ENC (vector) charts on a PC for the ICWW.
The combination of chart/RADAR overlay and AIS is great off shore around commercial shipping traffic at night.
Maybe it’s just me, but I was quite unhappy about Raymarine’s sense of denial about what is apparently a well known problem with their GPS120. I resolved it by buying a Garmin GPS and trashing the Raymarine GPS120.
Quent
Clairebuoyant, #132 -
Err, ah, what problem with the GPS120? And does it extend to the 125?
Bob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:11 PM, quent wrote:
We have a Raymarine C-80 w/ 2kw RADAR, AIS in a Navpod at the wheel. I agree the Navionics charts are pretty bad, partly because they are old by the time Navionics gets them to market, and partly because they are full of errors, esp. on the ICWW. Nothing beats NOAA ENC (vector) charts on a PC for the ICWW.
The combination of chart/RADAR overlay and AIS is great off shore around commercial shipping traffic at night.
Maybe it's just me, but I was quite unhappy about Raymarine's sense of denial about what is apparently a well known problem with their GPS120. I resolved it by buying a Garmin GPS and trashing the Raymarine GPS120.
Quent
Clairebuoyant, #132—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFinePost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Hi Bob-
Apparently a software problem affecting its ability to work with the newer satellites. John knows the technical details.
It manifested at least on my system as a chartplotter screen that just stopped moving, no alarm or other warning. A bit nasty approaching Memory Rock eastbound after dark. Luckily, it was only one of several GPSs aboard. I think the later Raymarine GPS units are OK, but fool me once…!
Raymarine graciously offered to sell me a new current model for $300 or so. I decided to get a Garmin 17 for $100. The Garmin works just fine.
Quent -
“Most collisions occur at closer distances than 12 miles. “
actually, ALL collisions occur at a distance of zero miles…. 😉
Pete
wrote:
Quote:Eric
I originally purchased a RADAR unit in 1986 for my 424. It may be the
same model as you presently have. I replaced it a few years back with
a JRC color RADAR/chartplotter and never regretted it. JRC makes the
guts of many of the RADAR units such as Raymarine but are less
costly. JRC stopped selling under their own name. Distributors put
them out on clearance. I bought mine for about $1300. This is the
only distributor I could find with a websearch. They want too much
money for what they have in stock. If you keep your eye out you might
find one for a little over a grand.
http://www.boatersworld.com/bm/RadarAutopilots/JRC/316300565.htmlI mounted my display in the cockpit. I put a teak mounting panel on
the binnacle guard. I’m not entirely pleased with the instrument
mount and may redo it, but it works.
http://www.richardcarter.net/Cockpit.htmlI too cruise in the Northeast. I really like having the
RADAR/chartplotter at the wheel. I have a laptop below that runs
Nobletec which does a lot better job as a chartplotter but running
below to navigate is a pain. I rarely need the RADAR but use it when
its convenient. Power consumption isn’t a big deal. The FURUNO used
a lot more power. If your budget is limited, go for an inexpenive
unit and skip the bells and whistles. Most collisions occur at closer
distances than 12 miles. Having a long-range and powerful RADAR is of
limited use. My Furuno was a better RADAR unit but it sucked down the
watts and I had to mount it below. The JRC works just fine and
doesn’t run down my batteries.Don’t forget to budget for charts. The c-map cartridges are expensive.
Regards
Rich
Original Message
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I was going to say that! Hahahahaha!
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Quote:“Most collisions occur at closer distances than 12 miles. “actually, ALL collisions occur at a distance of zero miles…. 😉
Pete
Quote:Eric
I originally purchased a RADAR unit in 1986 for my 424. It may be the same model as you presently have. I replaced it a few years back with a JRC color RADAR/chartplotter and never regretted it. JRC makes the guts of many of the RADAR units such as Raymarine but are less costly. JRC stopped selling under their own name. Distributors put them out on clearance. I bought mine for about $1300. This is the only distributor I could find with a websearch. They want too much money for what they have in stock. If you keep your eye out you might find one for a little over a grand.
http://www.boatersworld.com/bm/RadarAutopilots/JRC/316300565.htmlI mounted my display in the cockpit. I put a teak mounting panel on the binnacle guard. I'm not entirely pleased with the instrument mount and may redo it, but it works.
http://www.richardcarter.net/Cockpit.htmlI too cruise in the Northeast. I really like having the RADAR/chartplotter at the wheel. I have a laptop below that runs Nobletec which does a lot better job as a chartplotter but running below to navigate is a pain. I rarely need the RADAR but use it when its convenient. Power consumption isn't a big deal. The FURUNO used a lot more power. If your budget is limited, go for an inexpenive unit and skip the bells and whistles. Most collisions occur at closer distances than 12 miles. Having a long-range and powerful RADAR is of limited use. My Furuno was a better RADAR unit but it sucked down the watts and I had to mount it below. The JRC works just fine and doesn't run down my batteries.
Don't forget to budget for charts. The c-map cartridges are expensive.
Regards
Rich
Original Message
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That's a fairly serious matter – I've noticed my GPS loses signal but chalk it up to system resets – but if it's a Raymarine problem, I'd sure like to determine if my antenna is affected. John? Do you have any input?
Bob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:39 PM, quent wrote:
Hi Bob-
Apparently a software problem affecting its ability to work with the newer satellites. John knows the technical details.
It manifested at least on my system as a chartplotter screen that just stopped moving, no alarm or other warning. A bit nasty approaching Memory Rock eastbound after dark. Luckily, it was only one of several GPSs aboard. I think the later Raymarine GPS units are OK, but fool me once…!
Raymarine graciously offered to sell me a new current model for $300 or so. I decided to get a Garmin 17 for $100. The Garmin works just fine.
Quent—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFinePost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Bob, Quent,
I experienced what Quent described as two problems. One is the lockup, for that I had to replace the RS120. I got a RS125 as a replacement because the Raymarine Tech thought my RS120 was still under warranty – Their screw-up, but they stood by it. If it weren't for that Raymarine was will to let me pound sand, and I would have gone with an NMEA GPS, such as Garmin.
The satellite issue is really a C/E-series software problem rather than a RS120 probem. I don't think it actually affected the position reported by the display. It appears Raymarine hard-coded the display to look for the WAAS satellites to display the “SD” (satellite differential) status. I don't believe it really changed the position accuracy, the GPS took care of processing the WAAS corrections. The only fix provided by Raymarine was to the C/E-series software. I assume it is now hard-coded to the new WAAS satellites.
I have found no problems with the RS125.On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:39 PM, quent wrote:
Hi Bob-
Apparently a software problem affecting its ability to work with the newer satellites. John knows the technical details.
It manifested at least on my system as a chartplotter screen that just stopped moving, no alarm or other warning. A bit nasty approaching Memory Rock eastbound after dark. Luckily, it was only one of several GPSs aboard. I think the later Raymarine GPS units are OK, but fool me once…!
Raymarine graciously offered to sell me a new current model for $300 or so. I decided to get a Garmin 17 for $100. The Garmin works just fine.
Quent—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Thanks, John,
That's all very technical, but good to know. I still wonder about the signal loss, but I'll take 99.9% uptime as good, until it fails at a very bad time…
Bob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:57 PM, John Stevenson wrote:
Bob, Quent,
I experienced what Quent described as two problems. One is the lockup, for that I had to replace the RS120. I got a RS125 as a replacement because the Raymarine Tech thought my RS120 was still under warranty – Their screw-up, but they stood by it. If it weren't for that Raymarine was will to let me pound sand, and I would have gone with an NMEA GPS, such as Garmin.
The satellite issue is really a C/E-series software problem rather than a RS120 probem. I don't think it actually affected the position reported by the display. It appears Raymarine hard-coded the display to look for the WAAS satellites to display the “SD” (satellite differential) status. I don't believe it really changed the position accuracy, the GPS took care of processing the WAAS corrections. The only fix provided by Raymarine was to the C/E-series software. I assume it is now hard-coded to the new WAAS satellites.
I have found no problems with the RS125.On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:39 PM, quent wrote:
Hi Bob-
Apparently a software problem affecting its ability to work with the newer satellites. John knows the technical details.
It manifested at least on my system as a chartplotter screen that just stopped moving, no alarm or other warning. A bit nasty approaching Memory Rock eastbound after dark. Luckily, it was only one of several GPSs aboard. I think the later Raymarine GPS units are OK, but fool me once…!
Raymarine graciously offered to sell me a new current model for $300 or so. I decided to get a Garmin 17 for $100. The Garmin works just fine.
Quent—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFinePost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Regarding charts, the Garmin Blue charts are built in to all Garmin units and cover the entire US coastal waters. They are detailed and excellent,IMO. As for the Bahamas, Garmin uses the Explorer charts on their plotters and these are built into all their plotters as well! Anyone going to navigate in the Bahamas would do well to purchase a Garmin plotter as they will get, for “free”
the best charts available!Besides the chart quality, Garmin makes a great plotter–its user interface is easy and their customer service is second to none. They are always making software updates, sometimes major upgrades, that are available to download for free. These could go on for years after you purchase a particular unit!
I mounted a small Garmin 540 right on top of the pedestal guard and this was the best electronics addition I ever made! It tilts and swivels and is always visible no matter what angle of heel or what tack I’m on. No more need to go below to check the laptop!
Rodd
WindseekerQuote:
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A friend if mine, who works for Sea tow and picks up and delivers the pilots here in Brunswick told me last week that he pulls about four times as many Raymarine users as he does Garmin users. Not empirical data but interesting non the less. I have a two year old C120 and now I am a little concerned.
Lee
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Hi Lee,
My C80 is almost three now – I wouldn't worry if it's been working alright. Here's what I have to say about the failure rate, though. Raymarines seem to be far more susceptible to voltage spikes/variations then Garmins – also, if they are not installed correctly with 12v going to the Seatalk bus, they will behave very badly, indeed. I know from personal experience.
But once up and running, they're perfectly fine. The one issue I'd check is that you can start the engine without resetting the C120. If you can, Bob's your uncle.
I've seen far too many vessels whose electrical system seems to be somewhat substandard (not ours, of course) and that takes a huge toll on the electronics.
It could also be that as of today, there are twice as many Raymarines installed than Garmins – Up until a couple of years ago, Garmins were not outstanding at all. They have come a LONG way, and are currently eating Raymarine's something or other, I forget what, but it's something Raymarine doesn't want eaten. I'm not changing now, but if I were…
I still keep the current paper chart in the cockpit and keep track of where I am on it…
Bob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Lee Yonkers wrote:
A friend if mine, who works for Sea tow and picks up and delivers the pilots here in Brunswick told me last week that he pulls about four times as many Raymarine users as he does Garmin users. Not empirical data but interesting non the less. I have a two year old C120 and now I am a little concerned.
Lee
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFinePost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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The key to avoiding a voltage drop to the instruments and causing them to reset is to isolate the starting and house batteries. If you have one of those Off-1-2-Both switches get rid of it (unless it is just controlling one bank of batteries).
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Robert Fine wrote:
Hi Lee,
My C80 is almost three now – I wouldn't worry if it's been working alright. Here's what I have to say about the failure rate, though. Raymarines seem to be far more susceptible to voltage spikes/variations then Garmins – also, if they are not installed correctly with 12v going to the Seatalk bus, they will behave very badly, indeed. I know from personal experience.
But once up and running, they're perfectly fine. The one issue I'd check is that you can start the engine without resetting the C120. If you can, Bob's your uncle.
I've seen far too many vessels whose electrical system seems to be somewhat substandard (not ours, of course) and that takes a huge toll on the electronics.
It could also be that as of today, there are twice as many Raymarines installed than Garmins – Up until a couple of years ago, Garmins were not outstanding at all. They have come a LONG way, and are currently eating Raymarine's something or other, I forget what, but it's something Raymarine doesn't want eaten. I'm not changing now, but if I were…
I still keep the current paper chart in the cockpit and keep track of where I am on it…
Bob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Lee Yonkers wrote:
A friend if mine, who works for Sea tow and picks up and delivers the pilots here in Brunswick told me last week that he pulls about four times as many Raymarine users as he does Garmin users. Not empirical data but interesting non the less. I have a two year old C120 and now I am a little concerned.
Lee
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
Follow me at: http://www.tinyurl.com/WhereIsBobFine—
Regards,
John Stevenson
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