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The buyer who didnt transfer the CG documentation to himself cannot by law or by state registration change title of the vessel as a legal matter unless he has a valid notarized CG bill of sale in proper chain of title recorded with the CG. As a legal matter the CG Documentation governs ownership. Never ever buy a documented vessel without a notarized coast guard bill of sale promptly recorded, with a prior search of title to confirm your seller really owns the vessel. I have been doing this as a lawyer for many years andd can tell you all kinds of horror stories. Among other things failure to properly document a vessel can affect your hull insurance.
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The documentation center will accept FAX for renewals.
— On Sat, 12/19/09, John Stevenson <> wrote:
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Renewals yes; transfers, no.
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Thats about as silly a remark as buying a documented vessel without a seaqrch and a new recording. Would you buy a house without a deed?
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I didnt call you an idiot. If i had that would have been a personal attack. What i said was your comment was not intelligent. I am sure you on the other hand, are quite intelligent. If a boat is documented with the CG, as a legal matter, it is just like real estate as to title and recording.
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Gentlemen, please tone it down!
I’ve read all kinds of bad advice over the years and have probably given some bad advice myself with good intentions. That’s why we have a forum. There is no reason differing opions can’t be tactfully expressed. It would be rude to directly state that advice given was wrong. Its perfectly fine to say that you have a different opinion however. Please give each other a little sea-room here.
Regards
Rich<.. snip>
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I agree. And it is offensive to dump on a sailor just because he is a lawyer.
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When I purchased the boat she had been registered with the state for 10
years. I have the bill of sale from the first and the transfer of ownership
with all the USCG paper work.
But now that you mention it the state has had a time getting the
manufacturer correct. Each year I have to ask them to change it from the
old name of the boat to Pearson. This may be related to some quirk in the
PO’s transfer to state registration. I purchased the boat from a customer
at my restaurant that had seen me constantly working on my previous new
boat. His health was failing and he made me a deal. I did nothing more
than transfer the state registration. I hope that this doesn’t wind up
biting me on the butt.Linus
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Linus, if the boat is documented with the United States, which almost every
lender requires with a boat loan, then registering it with the State does
nothing to affect title. All it does it give the documented owner a license
to operate the vessel in that state and the privilege to pay a tax.Once a boat is a US documented vessel, or a “vessel of the United States,”
it is almost impossible to remove it from the documentation records absent
exemptions, and I confess I haven’t checked those in years. In the 80’s
vessels of a certain length or greater required the approval of the Maritime
Administration. Generally, the only way you can transfer title is by filing
original transfer documents on the CG forms with the CG home port of the
vessel. Most of the home ports have been “condensed” but you can find the
right place if you do a search.I would have the CG paperwork you have, once verified correct and accurate,
filed as promptly as possible, hoping no one in the interim obtained a
judgment, tax lien or ordinary lien against the prior owner.FWIW, these issues only come up when you buy or sell, and someone is doing
their homework, but intervening problems can take a long time to resolve. It
is better to do it right when you acquire the vessel than learn about it
after. I would be quite surprised if the prior owner transferred a vessel of
the U.S. off the U.S. documentation scheme. It’s not usually done because it
is difficult and expensive.All the best.
Original Message
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Hey, Linus,
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but having documented all my boats except the first which um, ended up in itty bitty pieces somewhere, I've had every documentation problem there is.
If you have a clear path of bills-of-sales (and not just a cocktail napkin with a signature – although a state may take that, too) from either it being last documented or from its original owner, registration is meaningless. You do need a title to the boat as well. As long as there is a clear and clean path of ownership registrations are moot – in fact, there's nothing about documentation that requires registration. Registration is a way for the state to make money.
The fees for documenting a boat are posted somewhere on the Coast Guard's site. I forget where.
It's not that difficult unless there's a lien. If you own the boat outright, then you're good to go.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Hi Thatcher,
I agree with what you said, except for this: Often a boat that is registered and documented has the title changed to the new owner, but the documentation is neglected. If the new owner never changes the CG documentation and sells the boat through the title transfer, perfectly legally, the next new owner has to have a clear chain of ownership to re-document the vessel.
If you don't return the documentation letter promptly every year, the vessel will become undocumented for purposes of ownership. The CG will keep records, of course, and will use the original chain of ownership if you re-document the vessel.
You can very easily have a previously documented but currently undocumented vessel's title of ownership. The CG documentation is a federal form of title, but not necessary.
The reason lenders want a vessel documented is so they can go after you or a vessel in ANY state (or, indeed, any country) to seize it. That makes banks very happy. Insurance companies, too.
The whole issue isn't complicated – a verifiable chain of ownership and a search for liens. That's about it. It can be time consuming, of course, and there can be problems (I had a particularly nasty one with Pelican) so if you have any doubts, spend the $475 to get a real service to do it. It's good insurance and less than the cost of a haulout.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Aha, but you forgot one thing. Intervening liens. The US vessel statute is a race statute, not a notice statute. SO if the old owner is on the records and a lien is filed, the old but timely signed but poorly filed papers lose to the lien.
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I see what you mean. There is that. Interestingly enough, my documentation shows a lien, but my registration doesn't. How about that? I guess I could sell the boat with a title (no lien) by signing it over and in theory, the new owner wouldn't know it until he tried to document the boat. By then, I'm in a no extradition country…
Bob
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Thatcher A. Stone < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Aha, but you forgot one thing. Intervening liens. The US vessel statute is a race statute, not a notice statute. SO if the old owner is on the records and a lien is filed, the old but timely signed but poorly filed papers lose to the lien.
Â
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You're welcome, Linus, if I've helped at all. If you want I'll find who documented my boat – they jumped through hoops for me. The previous owner had the boat in his wife's name (different from his) and he had to prove that he was married to her and that he really was legally able to sell the boat. It took no small amount of cajoling, threatening, and gnashing of teeth to get it done, but get it done they did.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Well the CG form has a rep and warranty on the absence of liens so, you’d be stuck.
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Remember, though, I'm in a non-extradition country. That's why.
🙂
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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