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The grunert system was an original option in many of the older boats. Most have been replaced by now. Too bad, since it works very well if you can maintain it. I think there are only a couple of us left with the engine-driven system.
Rich
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John,
So I’m not alone in my dilemma. Sorry to hear it. As I see it, the icebox Pearson built, the one I have, is absolutely useless for liveaboard cruising. Now that I’m underway and living at anchor I’m going to have to deal with it whether I want to or not. If there isn’t enough room outside the box walls for a reasonable amount of insulation, sprayed or otherwise, then I’ll have to line it on the inside and accept having a smaller compartment, but at least one that functions.
As for the bigger box in the U-shaped galleys, hey, everything on a boat is a compromise, a trade-off. For myself, I so enjoy the openness the L-galley affords the salon that I wouldn’t change it if I could.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Rich-
We started with that same Gunert system, and tried to keep it after installing an equally robust 12 volt dc holding plate system. The theory was that this provided redundancy, hence reliability. It didn’t work out and we pulled out the engine drive, replacing the compressor with a second 100 amp alternator. It was just too many things to break, and unless all the holding plates all froze at the same time, they worked against each other.
The engine drive system was fast and powerful, but because the holding plates were bolted to the uninsulated top of the frig box, things thawed quickly. After we pulled the engine drive out and added much insulation in its place, holdover time increased substantially even though we halved holding plate capacity. One thing that helped a lot was a vacuum panel in the lid that we got from Rparts.com.
With a large battery bank and the ability to charge in excess of 150 amps, engine run time to keep the frig is the same or less than it was with the engine drive.
We still have the old holding plates if anyone wants to build their own system. They are Dole galvanized plates, not pretty, but functional and indistructable.
One observation that might be helpful. If you have little or no insulation, the incremental improvement of even a little insulation can be significant. For instance, when we were working with the engine drive system, we stuffed 1/2″ rigid foam insulation in the small space between the upper holding plate and the underside of the countertop. It made a significant difference in holdover time.
Quent -
“I so enjoy the openness the L-galley affords the salon that I wouldn't change it if I could.”
I agree, my friends refer to this space as the Dance Floor.
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:John,So I'm not alone in my dilemma. Sorry to hear it. As I see it, the icebox Pearson built, the one I have, is absolutely useless for liveaboard cruising. Now that I'm underway and living at anchor I'm going to have to deal with it whether I want to or not. If there isn't enough room outside the box walls for a reasonable amount of insulation, sprayed or otherwise, then I'll have to line it on the inside and accept having a smaller compartment, but at least one that functions.
As for the bigger box in the U-shaped galleys, hey, everything on a boat is a compromise, a trade-off. For myself, I so enjoy the openness the L-galley affords the salon that I wouldn't change it if I could.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I have a U galley. No mid ships companionway. The box is large. I have found that by doing three things I have been able to live with it albeit possessed of two major issues for extended live aboard. First, every 12V incandescent bulb in the place has been changed to LED. The effect on battery life is large. I have interior space that is about 4 feet deep and 12 x 36, roughly. I Put two 5 pound blocks of ice at the beginning of every cruise more than three days at the bottom. I use the hand selector pump (salt or ice) on the sink and pump out the water if any every AM and PM. I have a wind generator and a solar panel. This has all reduced battery use and recognizes the fridge is a power hog. Second, we plan all the meals together as a family to avoid buying things we won’t eat or use. Good on the belly, wallet, karma and space in the fridge. We can fit enough food for 5 for a week in our box. You have to give up ice cream for fruit but it’s better for you anyway. Third, we have learned to pack food in a way that minimizes disturbing the “deep locker” status of the box and exposing the box to warmth, or letting the cool out, as my daughter used to say. We pack the first day’s meals on top, etc. Sort of like the reverse of a scallop boat (freshest on top).
The drawbacks are, no ice maker and no ice cream.
I contracted a heart infection 6 years ago from a dirty outpatient procedure and had an aortic valve transplant as a result. I have completely changed my lifestyle ever since. So I eat a lot of grain and brew tea in the AM, vegetables and Tofu or fish at lunch, and light dinners with few sweets. Sounds boring but it’s better than the alternative of having the Weill Cornell Presbyterian doctors tell the Cardiac fellows on rounds in the CICU that I was the sickest guy in the hospital. So I don’t need to worry about ice cream or ice for booze or processed frozen food. SO as long as I can keep the skim and soy milk cold, the fruit and veggies fresh, and the fish and chicken chilled, I have been happy, the crew’s been happy with my cooking (yes, I am both captain and cook) and there’ve been no mutinies planned or actual.
I will say that MY only disappointment with live aboard (and I confess I only do it for more than three or four days, once a year in August) is that while I have a fabulous new Seaward oven, I only have one. Every cook knows you really need two ovens and a microwave to do your best work. But the incredible joy of a sail to Block Island, a sunset at anchor in Great Salt Pond, and a dinner of garlic rosemary chicken roasted aboard, stuffed with fresh veggies, a fresh salad topped with pine nuts and goat cheese, hot fresh biscuits and a good white wine will beat any plate of ice cream or frozen food. IMHO.
Best.
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Dance floor, indeed. I’ve been known to do just that when I’m cooking something particularly festive, with the stereo cranked up way too loud. It’s one of the joys of single-handing, jumping around like a complete idiot and no-one there to see.
Seriously, though, as much as I appreciate the openness of my layout it really is a trade-off, making do with the small (and about to get smaller) icebox, and the shortage of galley counter space.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Sounds great. What time is dinner?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor and John and Thatcher,
All good points – Since I also singlehand, I am going to install cleats on the 'dance floor' to assist me in staying near the stove underway. I have bars bolted to everything, but nothing beats a good footing, I always say. Well, to anyone who will listen.
Like Thatcher, I've replaced my lighting, both inside and out, with LED (I'm waiting for the price of the LED spotlights to come down before doing the spreader lights) and so the biggest load is, like you all, the refrigerator. I have an Adler-Barbour unit mounted under the sole and although it does ok keeping vegetables, it's useless for ice, ice cream or frozen dinners. I've found that if I line the walls with seltzer bottles and juice bottles. It helps a great deal. As an aside for LED lighting – I can run all my interior lighting, the one swivel at the nav station, the two swivels at the aft bunk, three lights in the v-berth, three lights in the main cabin, and the four lights around the settees for the same power than one of the old incandescent lamps. That's a huge savings even if you use a light just for reading!
Even with the rather crappy unit, I can go 4 days without running the generator or engine for charging. My house bank is three AGM 4Ds and the emergency bank now is two Group 31 AGM batteries. The second bank is never used and is charged with the 'echo charger' of a Xantrex Freedom 2000.
I'm thinking of changing from an evaporator to a holding plate or something. I haven't decided yet. I suppose I'll be more interested in this when I get down south where it's always hot.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Well, any time you show up, I guess.
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Hey Bob,
I’ve got a Cold Machine, too, which came with the boat. In my last cruising boat I installed a Grunert holding plate, the compressor run by a powerful 12V motor. Great system! One plate and a divided box. The plate side could freeze a brontosaurus. The cold bled over from there into the other side of the box and maintained perfect refrigerator temperature all by itself. If/when I eventually rebuild the icebox compartment on this boat into what it should’ve been in the first place, I might convert it to that same 12V/holding plate system. For now I’ll just insulate what I’ve got as well as I can and get on with the cruise.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
That seems to be my path as well. To be honest, if I were to re-do the box, I'd put a side loading door so I could reach the bottom if I had to – now, I have to use the old-people grabby thing which I also use to retrieve things out of the bilge. Not ideal.
The other issue is the the person who installed the cold machine put the evaporator on end on the forward side of the box, while stamped in a prominent location it says, “Horizontal mount. Do not mount vertically”. Clearly they weren't paying attention. Not only do I have to use vertical ice trays which as you may or may not know are a huge pain in the ass, but there's no circulation on the side there should be. Further, it blocks the only small opening there is. Just a bad idea all around.
Maybe I can insulate the top and mount it there, but I hate bending or unbending 10 year old copper tubing. Also, I should have a small 12v circulating fan that runs with the compressor. It's all very doable, and it's all another project, and several boat bucks.
I'm wondering if the Adler Barbour is the best air cooled reefer?
Bob
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hey Bob,
I've got a Cold Machine, too, which came with the boat. In my last cruising boat I installed a Grunert holding plate, the compressor run by a powerful 12V motor. Great system! One plate and a divided box. The plate side could freeze a brontosaurus. The cold bled over from there into the other side of the box and maintained perfect refrigerator temperature all by itself. If/when I eventually rebuild the icebox compartment on this boat into what it should've been in the first place, I might convert it to that same 12V/holding plate system. For now I'll just insulate what I've got as well as I can and get on with the cruise.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor:
Walter sent out an e-mail back in Jan/08 on the additional of insulation to the icebox in Hull #1. Since this is before the BB was established, I have posted a copy below that you may find helpful. Also,as he indicates, there are some pictures on the website:
https://www.pearson424.org/gallery/IceboxNote that he used isocyanurate foam. This foam has the advantage of being R6.5 per inch versus R5.0 for blueboard. However, it does have the disadvantage of being capable of adsorbing moisture over time, so it does need to be sealed properly. Walter used fiberglass sheeting to seal the foam.
Even with 2″ of foam added, the box still seemed to be plenty big enough. When I was on the boat over a total period of 5 weeks over this past fall /winter. I don’t recall the fridge temps ever to be a reason to run the engine run system. It was usually the batteries that need energy first. With this added insulation, it seemed to have good hold-over times.
Paul
Walter wrote:
“For anyone who may be interested, I am in the process of re-insulating the icebox of #1, and thought I would share my experience so far. I put a few photos on the pearson424.org site. So far, it is a remarkably easy process. The dimensions of the box from the factory are such that 2″ of foam added to the inside of the box works very conveniently to cover the existing ledges for the old shelf and bring the sides out flush with the inside of the opening. This should make for relatively easy trimming of the opening, and formation of a new sealing surface. Also, fitting the foam through the opening is not much of a problem, you just hinge the larger parts. I have not used any adhesive to hold the foam in place, and I don’t think I will. It is not hard to cut it so it fits very snugly, and interlocks in the corners. I will glue the liner to the foam. If the project fails in some way, I will only need to remove the foam. I plan to line the box with the cheap fiberglass sheets sold in home improvement stores (usually used as an alternative to tile). $36/sheet, very sanitary, and quite tough. There is not a lot of reinforcing glass, but it can take a pretty good impact. I am cutting it with tin snips, which makes the trimming and fitting easier. It will probably ruin my snips, but that is an acceptable cost. I covered the old drain, thinking that it could work to drain any moisture/condensation/leakage that gets out of the new, inner box. I will likely create a new drain in the inner box, drilling out through the old box. Trimming around the Grunnert plates and copper lines is working out well. The lines come in low in the box, so they should be waterproofed. I intend to accomplish this by adding more insulation around the lines to effectively move the entry point up. I will explain this in pictures as I do it. I have no specific question, but welcome thoughts and comments.”Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Walter still has the grunnert engine-driven system. His compressor is about 3hp compared with fractional hp ratings of 12v systems. I don’t think you can compare his running times with a 12v system. One of these days I might do something with the insulation in my ice-box too, but its one of those things that isn’t quite right, but isn’t broken. I may never get to it. The right way to fix this would be to pull the countertop off and remove the entire icebox liner. Then replace it with a new stainless liner that is smaller than what’s there now. I use drop-in trays to hold food. If I made the icebox smaller, I’d have to find smaller trays too. The main reason I haven’t done something about this is that I’d have to remove the existing holding plates. I’d have to replace the copper tubing from the condenser. While I’m at it, I’d probably want to replace the holding plates too. This gets into a lot of work for something that’s not really broken.
Rich
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Thank you, Paul. That’s very helpful. I’m thinking of doing much the same thing – maybe exactly the same thing! – plus spraying some expanding foam (Great Stuff or whatever) into hollow spaces behind the original panels.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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A lot of people say the side loading door is a waste of energy. But I gotta tell you, since I put in my side loading door I am in and out of the refer in less than 10 secs. The old way of retrieving a drink, you’d have to open the top and take out half the contents to find a beer hidden under the lettuce somewhere……
alan— On Thu, 7/2/09, Robert Fine <> wrote:
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My big beef with the fridge is that the coldplate/freezer part frosts over
and it’s a huge PITA to chunk ice off to get into the freezer.I don;t know ANYTHING about refrigeration. Is that just normal for a high
humidity environment, or is that an indication that the seal on the lid is
not sealing well?
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The option I chose rather than put in a door (something way beyond my cabinet-making skills) was to construct baskets that fit the cross-sections of the frig. I have a few items that are loose in the frig (e.g., wine bottles), but almost everything is in one of two baskets, which lift out. It only takes me a few seconds to empty the contents of the frig, and most of the items are contained in the baskets so they don't go rolling around th cabin floor. It has worked pretty well for me for the last 6 years.
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
My big beef with the fridge is that the coldplate/freezer part frosts over
and it's a huge PITA to chunk ice off to get into the freezer.I don;t know ANYTHING about refrigeration. Is that just normal for a high
humidity environment, or is that an indication that the seal on the lid is
not sealing well?
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Regards,
John Stevenson
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We use baskets too, actually they are webbed bags so they can collapse to minimum size, color coded too. Works very well. Since cold air is heavier than warm air, the cold stays in the fridge/freezer, while side doors let the cold out and the warm in.
Frost means either a weak seal, exposed ice, or, it’s normal in humid air when you open the door often. We defrost once a month or 3 weeks and live in the Caribbean where it’s quite humid. We use a hair drier to blow hot air and loosen the ice. be careful with a pick, you could damage the unit.
Joe,
Half Moon #71— On Thu, 7/2/09, John Stevenson <> wrote:
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