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Hi All,
We had a big 70+ knot storm pass through Auckland two weeks ago. Unfortunately a large 23 ton ferro yacht in the berth alongside broke her bow mooring and rubbed away parts of the cap rail and rubbing strake.
It is now in the hands of insurance!
As a result Miss Kathleen will be out of the water for a while whilst repairs are undertaken.
Now, I was wondering, especially having seen another P424 with a larger than normal rudder, if I could enlarge my rudder.
The plan is to add a piece that extends past the current the depth of the rudder, and includes a piece forward of the rudder shaft. The thought being that this will enhance her steering, especially in reverse (I do not have a bow thruster)
Question – has anyone ventured into the internals of the rudder. Is it solid wood with glass, or a stainless frame?
Any ideas / comments / opinions would be appreciated.
In the end the cost may be prohibitive, but it would be nice to know.
Thanks
Dennis
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Hi Dennis,
I’m not sure how you would extend the rudder forward without major
modifications to the skeg. Since the skeg takes a lot of the stress at the
lower end of the rudder I’m not sure it’s such a great idea.If I were to extend the rudder, it would be to elongate it by 4 to 6 inches
using a foam core and 3 layers of biaxial glass, each layer extending over
the other towards the front of the rudder. It’s a job that can be done
without removing the rudder from the boat.Things that will change are the amount of wheel movement for a given turn
and on the downside, when backing, the force on the rudder and steering
mechanism is increased so that releasing the wheel will result in a rather
quick and dramatic slam to the stops one way or another.The real issue with backing is that the prop is so far from the rudder and
there’s a skeg in the way so flow over the rudder is from motion through
the water only rather than from the prop and motion. If you can get the
boat going at a couple of knots in astern it steers pretty ok because
there’s enough flow.On another tack, I plan on through bolting pad eyes on the upper aft corner
of the rudder for emergency steering.Bob
On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Miss Kathleen via maillist <
> wrote:Hi All,
We had a big 70+ knot storm pass through Auckland two weeks ago.
Unfortunately a large 23 ton ferro yacht in the berth alongside broke her
bow mooring and rubbed away parts of the cap rail and rubbing strake.It is now in the hands of insurance!
As a result Miss Kathleen will be out of the water for a while whilst
repairs are undertaken.Now, I was wondering, especially having seen another P424 with a larger
than normal rudder, if I could enlarge my rudder.The plan is to add a piece that extends past the current the depth of the
rudder, and includes a piece forward of the rudder shaft. The thought being
that this will enhance her steering, especially in reverse (I do not have a
bow thruster)Question – has anyone ventured into the internals of the rudder. Is it
solid wood with glass, or a stainless frame?Any ideas / comments / opinions would be appreciated.
In the end the cost may be prohibitive, but it would be nice to know.
Thanks
Dennis
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—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Dennis,
I agree with Bob on rudder extension. In addition,
building it deeper will expose it to damage when
grounding, especially if you build it down beyond the
skeg. Our boats steer in reverse once they get moving.
At first, though, I tend to throttle gently in reverse,
building up sternway gradually, and compensating for
the tendency of the stern to kick to starboard by
cocking the rudder halfway to port.Bob, pad eyes on the rudder for emergency steering is a
prudent precaution, but the hardware will produce
unnecessary drag. An alternative way to prepare a
rudder to accept emergency steering lines is by
drilling a 1″ hole through it, in Silverheels’ case
2-to-3″ diagonally inward from the lower aft corner.
(You can just see it in the attached photo. It seemed
to me at the time that lines from that lower aft corner
will have a clearer run to the primary winches than
from the upper corner, albeit at a sharper angle.) Seal
the raw surface of the tubular hole with smoothed
epoxy, taking care to round the edges at each end, and
anti-foul it when you paint the bottom. It would be an
unusual circumstance that would call for its use – the
steering system broken but the rudder OK and moving
freely – but it’s a precaution that does no harm.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I agree with the hole thing and have waffled over that or pad eyes, which
is why I haven’t done either.The hole is usually at the top because the angle of pull on the rudder is
more directly in a steering direction than when at the bottom of the
rudder.Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Jun 24, 2014 8:36 AM, “Silverheels via maillist”
wrote:Quote:Dennis,I agree with Bob on rudder extension. In addition,
building it deeper will expose it to damage when
grounding, especially if you build it down beyond the
skeg. Our boats steer in reverse once they get moving.
At first, though, I tend to throttle gently in reverse,
building up sternway gradually, and compensating for
the tendency of the stern to kick to starboard by
cocking the rudder halfway to port.Bob, pad eyes on the rudder for emergency steering is a
prudent precaution, but the hardware will produce
unnecessary drag. An alternative way to prepare a
rudder to accept emergency steering lines is by
drilling a 1″ hole through it, in Silverheels’ case
2-to-3″ diagonally inward from the lower aft corner.
(You can just see it in the attached photo. It seemed
to me at the time that lines from that lower aft corner
will have a clearer run to the primary winches than
from the upper corner, albeit at a sharper angle.) Seal
the raw surface of the tubular hole with smoothed
epoxy, taking care to round the edges at each end, and
anti-foul it when you paint the bottom. It would be an
unusual circumstance that would call for its use – the
steering system broken but the rudder OK and moving
freely – but it’s a precaution that does no harm.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Original Message
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Re holes and padeyes:
The P-424 has a 1.5″ solid rudder shaft. It’s reasonable to assume that there are some horizontal bars welded on it inside the rudder.
The biggest risk is that water gets inside the rudder, and corrodes the welds and causes the rudder shaft to shear loose from the rudder.
I’d be careful about drilling holes in the rudder that will be under water.
Quent -
My untested approach is to use the emergency tiller, but attach block and
tackle to the tiller. Moving that rudder without the mechanical advantage
of the wheel is going to be a bitch. If my 4:1 purchase on the tiller is
insufficient, then I would run the line to the sheet winches. Hope none
of us gets to find out if any of these approaches will work.
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Emergency%20Tiller%205.JPGRegards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 9:03 AM, quent via maillist <
wrote:
Re holes and padeyes:
The P-424 has a 1.5″ solid rudder shaft. It’s reasonable to assume that
there are some horizontal bars welded on it inside the rudder.
The biggest risk is that water gets inside the rudder, and corrodes the
welds and causes the rudder shaft to shear loose from the rudder.
I’d be careful about drilling holes in the rudder that will be under water.
Quent_______________________________________________
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A good point, Quent. That’s why I over-drilled the hole
and then sealed the wall with plenty of epoxy. I’m
pretty sure it’s 100% waterproof.Tor
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Bob,
Yes, I see the sense of placing the hole near the rudder’s top, the trade-off being more drag against the hull en route to the winches. To be honest, I have not tried out what I have. When I haul out in the fall, I will.
The only disadvantage of a hole instead of pad eyes is that you have to first reeve a 3′ line through it, preferably with stop knots both sides close to the hole. Then you can attach the steering lines with a sheet bend. So there’s an extra step compared to simply tying bowlines in the pad eyes. But considering the un-likelihood of its ever being used as opposed to the guaranteed permanency of the additional drag of pad eyes, I vote for the hole.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Wow, nice setup, John. I put my emergency tiller on
once when I first got the boat to be sure it fit, and I
keep a homemade tool handy in the lazarette for opening
that deck plate, but I have not set up any kind of
tackle for actually using it. I believe I may have to
copy your arrangement. (Hey, maybe I’ll write it up as
a Cruising Tip for SAIL. Can I use your photo? (giving
you the photo credit, of course, and a few cold beers
someday by way of a royalty.)Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Thanks all for your advice.
My thoughts were to add a half-moon piece to the bottom, and was inspired by the pics in the link below where I saw a larger than normal rudder on the P424. Admittedly it is a sloop version.
http://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokerage/350137/PEARSON-424.html
Looking at this it would be a project that definitely falls into the ‘hard basket’.
At this point I have enough on my hands with the hard dodger and bimini rebuild.
Other plans when she is on the hard is to replace some skin fittings and look at removing a few that are not needed.
Another option is to install a PSS shaft seal.
Cheers
Dennis
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Hi Dennis,
My last boat, a 34′ sloop, had a rudder like I think you are describing. It was a skeg hung rudder but the there was a section that protruded maybe 12″ below the bottom of the skeg and forward to the front edge of the skeg. So that lower section of rudder was balanced, ahead of the rudder post. The boat was very responsive and very light at the helm. The light touch I think was at least partly due to the balanced section. When you put the rudder over, the lower section had water pressure helping turn the rudder and made it much easier to steer.
I have thought about doing the same thing with my Pearson. To avoid potential damage in a grounding I would make the lower section lighter in construction IE a breakaway section.
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