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Those of you with running backs, that is the diameter and length of the wire portion on your boat? What did
Pearson use, and/or how did you improve on that? (If you don’t know the length of the wire offhand then
guestimates are appreciated, for example ‘roughly equal to the length from the hound to the coachhouse’ or
whatever.)Thanks,
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
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TYPO
I meant to ask, “What is the diameter and length of the wire portion” of your running backstays?
Tor
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Hi Tor,
Which running backs – the main or mizzen? If the main, it is the distance from the hound to about 3' off the deck at the caprail. Just enough room for a big-assed block and tackle.
Bob
PS, if the mizzen, from the masthead to about 4' above the aft corner cleat.
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:TYPOI meant to ask, “What is the diameter and length of the wire portion” of your running backstays?
Tor
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Yes, the main running backs, for balancing the mast bend of an inner forestay flying a staysail. Thanks, Bob, that’s the length answer I was seeking. How did you come up with that? Is it a rigging axiom, or just what makes sense to you? Also, what wire diameter seems right for that?
Tor
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Tor,
No running backs on Sarah's main mast, but intuitively I would guess the wire on the running backs should not be less than the 1/2 the diameter of the inner fore stay that they are counter forcing. So if you have a 3/8″ inner fore stay, I would go with 3/16' or more likely 7/32″ for the runners.
Then again that's just an intuitive guess, no engineering there.
I'm using this on-line session as an excuse for not working on taxes, otherwise I would see if Brion Toss has a recommendation in the Rigger's Apprentice. Once the taxes are filed, I'll the check the book.John
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Yes, the main running backs, for balancing the mast bend of an inner forestay flying a staysail. Thanks, Bob, that's the length answer I was seeking. How did you come up with that? Is it a rigging axiom, or just what makes sense to you? Also, what wire diameter seems right for that?Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
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Interesting post from Jack in the Pearson Current Newsletter
http://www.pearsoncurrent.com/tpcarchive/Vol6/tpc-6-2.htm#p424There is other info in Jack’s post… but this seemed particularly relevant
Inner Forestay
There has been a lot of interest in inner forestay installation at the NPYOA news forum and at least two owners have done it with some success. Hopefully, I’ll get one of these folks to write up their approach for a future issue of TPC. Meanwhile, I’m still designing my arrangement for our 424 Ketch, but wanted to tack on a description offered by Brion Toss, a well-known Seattle rigger. He offers this approach to having a separate stay handle heavy weather sails when the genoa needs to be rolled up on the furler.
“What you are talking about is a Solent Stay, a piece of rigging made possible by the invention of roller furling. It is almost always preferable to a staysail stay, with its necessary running backs, both in terms of cost and efficiency. At the upper end, use a separate tang, either custom-made or gotten from the spar builder. The halyard can be a redirected spare, or can be hung externally, or you can install an in-mast sheave. On deck, install a forestay fitting, and be sure there’s a place for the sail tack. You can locate a Solent Stay quite close to the jibstay, with no fouling problems. Theoretically, it is only set up when you need to set either a (hank-on) drifter or a storm stays, but many cruisers just leave it set all the time; to tack the genoa, they roll it up. Some production boats now have roller sails on the Solent, and set the drifter flying.”
Brion is recommending this alternative in part because a conventional staysail may not be suitable for the fore triangle provided by the designer. Also, because a staysail normally requires either intermediate after shrouds or running backstays and usually additional tracks and cars for the sheeting of the staysail. Brion’s web site, http://www.briontoss.com, is a real gem, and a visit to his Spar Talk bulletin board—with lots of comments and suggestions from his group of experts—is well worth some time. Be sure to check out the archives, which offer a search function and allow you access to previous discussions.Also, according to a comment on the Sarah Solent Stay article Sea Duty (formerly owned by Hal Sutphen, now owned by Chuck Ruble) has an inner forestay instead of the high mounted solent stay on Sarah and Whoosh.
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com<.. snip>
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Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
If you go to http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Riggers-Apprentice-Techniques-Traditional/dp/0070648409
and click Look Inside and then search for running backstay the 4th result (Page 138) in talking about shroud sizes he says:“… Also Cruisers often make all their shrouds and stays out of the same size wire so they only have to carry one size of spare wire, turnbuckle, clevis pin, etc. An exception is sometimes made for running backstays pendants which can be made of vinyl coated 7×7 or my favorite, Specta/Technorablend rope (see pg 22). Running Backstays can be lighter than the forestay, since the mast itself and the intermediates [shrouds] take up some of the load from the forestay.”
The web is awesome….
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com<.. snip>
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Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
Hi Tor,
My running backs are 3/8 Spectra with a 7/16 regular Stayset line in the tackle. They are the only high-tech line on the boat. If I were to make them out of cable, though, I'd probably use 3/16th inch, like the rigging for the mizzen.
Really, with our masts, short and stout as they are I think it would have to be extreme weather to even consider using the running backs. Mine are just aft of the lowers and are usually a little slack.
In 38 kts with just the mizzen and staysail on a close reach there was no mast pumping or even any bend by virtue of the fact that the leeward shrouds were still relatively tight.
But as you saw, my inner forestay is just a bit above the lower shrouds.
I'm glad you like my measuring method.
Bob
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Yes, the main running backs, for balancing the mast bend of an inner forestay flying a staysail. Thanks, Bob, that's the length answer I was seeking. How did you come up with that? Is it a rigging axiom, or just what makes sense to you? Also, what wire diameter seems right for that?Tor
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Thanks, Pat. Yes, the web is awesome. So is this owners’ group, with the advantage of you guys (and gal) sometimes being more direct regarding Pearson 424-specific questions.
Without meaning to stir up another religious hornets’ nest of opinion here, I personally don’t care for the Solent stay rig, however popular it has become of late. Sure, it’s easier to add on at first since it obviates running backstays, etc, but after that the skipper is apparently forever after having to roll up the genoa to tack! Wow. That strikes me as an unacceptably impractical compromise to the daily sailing of any boat – but that’s only for myself. I know there are some of us here who have Solent stays and like them – love them, even! I salute you and freely confess my complete ignorance. For my part, I have sailed enough ocean miles on other boats with a staysail rig to be convinced of its functional value, verily its virtual necessity for sailing when the ship hits the proverbial fan – for me, the way I sail a boat; not necessarily for anyone else the way they chose to sail their boat.
I do agree it makes apparent sense to use just one wire size from a replacement viewpoint as that fellow said, but my boat came rigged with 5/16″ shrouds, 3/8″ fore- and backstays, a variety of clevis pin sizes and skinny little standing rigging for the mizzen that I automatically upsized to 1/4″. So I’m already a veritable rigging shop underway where wire & pin sizes are concerned, way beyond the one size fits all approach.
I agree, too, that the running back wires can probably be lighter than the standing rigging around them for the reasons that writer named. So with a 5/16″ inner forestay, I guess the desirable running backstay wire diameter I was looking for is 1/4″, where erring on the beefier side is desirable. Thanks for those pointers.
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Joe,
I’m not sure there is an alternative to the Solent rig, which seems to be in a class by itself. What I’m setting up on my boat is a double headsail ketch rig, what some (mistakenly) call a “cutter ketch.” In other words, I’m installing an inner forestay on my ketch-rigged boat to carry a staysail, just as a cutter-rigged sailboat has an inner forestay that carries a staysail. In many cases, this inner forestay requires running backstays to “balance” the forward pulling force it puts on the mainmast when the boat’s working hard to windward, since it attached to the mast roughly in between the spreaders and the masthead.
Tor
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I still say cutter or cutter rigged ketch is acceptable. I will call it that to my, well, for a good long time! Muahahahahaha!
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Joe,
I'm not sure there is an alternative to the Solent rig, which seems to be in a class by itself. What I'm setting up on my boat is a double headsail ketch rig, what some (mistakenly) call a “cutter ketch.” In other words, I'm installing an inner forestay on my ketch-rigged boat to carry a staysail, just as a cutter-rigged sailboat has an inner forestay that carries a staysail. In many cases, this inner forestay requires running backstays to “balance” the forward pulling force it puts on the mainmast when the boat's working hard to windward, since it attached to the mast roughly in between the spreaders and the masthead.
Tor
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Clubless cutter-rigged Bermudian inner forestaysail double-headed gaffless clewless monohull aft cockpit Marconi ketch it is, then! Can I get an Amen.
Tor
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Tor,
Actually there should be no religion with regard to using a Solent Stay or a double head sail rig with an Inner Fore Stay. Different purposes, different sails. The double head sail rig is intended to be able to set both a Jib on the fore stay and a stay-sail on the inner fore stay. With a Solent Stay you do not normally set both sails at the same time. So I carry a 135% genoa on the forestay roller furler and a very small stay-sail hanked onto the Solent Stay. Off shore I usually have a day to two to consider tacking and having to furl the Genoa to clear the Solent Stay is not a major issue. I use the the stay sail as an alternative to the Genoa when reducing sail. When sailing inshore, where tacking may be an hourly consideration, I remove the the stay sail and secure the Solent Stay on the rail. Tacking the Genoa then is no more of an issue than on a sloop.For me the issue is the primarily the intended cruising venue. If I intended an extended high seas cruise (e.g., a circumnavigation), then I would not have a Solent Stay. I would also not have a 135% genoa. My cruising is primarily inshore, where the Solent Stay is out of the way, with occaisional off-shore or trans-oceanic passages, when the Solent Stay is deployed.
John
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I still say cutter or cutter rigged ketch is acceptable. I will call it that to my, well, for a good long time! Muahahahahaha!On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Joe,
I'm not sure there is an alternative to the Solent rig, which seems to be in a class by itself. What I'm setting up on my boat is a double headsail ketch rig, what some (mistakenly) call a “cutter ketch.” In other words, I'm installing an inner forestay on my ketch-rigged boat to carry a staysail, just as a cutter-rigged sailboat has an inner forestay that carries a staysail. In many cases, this inner forestay requires running backstays to “balance” the forward pulling force it puts on the mainmast when the boat's working hard to windward, since it attached to the mast roughly in between the spreaders and the masthead.
Tor
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Ah, thank you John. I really was ignorant of that and I’m glad to learn more. Having the Solent stay removable for day sails makes all the difference, though is seems an awfully long wire to move aside – it must overlap the rail by a few feet – and cumbersome if it carries roller furling.
Offhand I can think of 3 advantages to the staysail: (1) The extra slot created adds power to the rig when flown with the genoa – Bob says it gives his boat an extra knot, (2) you can often tack a genoa thru that slot so the wire can remain in place much of the time, and (3) the staysail as a heavy weather headsail – especially as a storm jib when deep-reefed or replaced with a dedicated storm jib – is closer to the boat’s center of gravity, a more stable placement of that sail’s force. I’m curious. What advantages of the Solent rig over the double headsail (Bob’s muahaha “cutter ketch”) rig caused you to choose that instead?
Tor
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Hi Tor,
The solent stay is just as John explained. You can also run double head sails downwind and have the boat balanced pretty well as they're close in size. I know people with them who never use the main jib. Imagine that. I'm guessing, when sailing the Solent, the sail changes are minimized using the device because the winds remain fairly steady.
All the advantages you mention for a staysail are correct – in fact, I have a storm staysail that has a reef point! I would be heartily terrified to need that puppy reefed, I have to tell you. Another advantage of the staysail v. the solent is that managing it in bad weather is easier – it's a smaller sail, it's closer to things to hold on to, and it makes the overall rig more balanced and easier to manage for a singlehander. I,personally, am not that fond of furling a big sail part way for extended periods of time -sure for a quick sail down the Long Island Sound, fine, but for days or weeks even, not so much. Out or in. The staysail can be deployed all the time, except when going dead downwind. Then it's just annoying.
Here's a tip – I got new sail covers. It turns out that the old mizzen sail cover works spectacularly as the staysail cover and I leave the whole mess hanked on all the time.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Ah, thank you John. I really was ignorant of that and I'm glad to learn more. Having the Solent stay removable for day sails makes all the difference, though is seems an awfully long wire to move aside – it must overlap the rail by a few feet – and cumbersome if it carries roller furling.
Offhand I can think of 3 advantages to the staysail: (1) The extra slot created adds power to the rig when flown with the genoa – Bob says it gives his boat an extra knot, (2) you can often tack a genoa thru that slot so the wire can remain in place much of the time, and (3) the staysail as a heavy weather headsail – especially as a storm jib when deep-reefed or replaced with a dedicated storm jib – is closer to the boat's center of gravity, a more stable placement of that sail's force. I'm curious. What advantages of the Solent rig over the double headsail (Bob's muahaha “cutter ketch”) rig caused you to choose that instead?
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob,
Sure, you’re preaching to the choir about the staysail. On my last boat I had a sail bag made that fastened around the inner forestay so the hanked-on staysail was always in place, ready to hoist. Sounds like you accomplished that with your old mizzen cover. Cool! I once sailed through a 5-day tropical storm just this side of the Azores under reefed staysail alone and it served very well. In general, for offshore passages the staysail went up and stayed up the whole way, with the other sails growing and shrinking around it as conditions dictated. The exception, of course, were long downwind runs (which were somehow much less frequent than long upwind beats).
I wonder about the 424’s standard ketch rig in a blow. Would be interested to hear how other owners deal with it. I believe it was designed in the days when sailors continually switched various hanked-on headsails according to need, and so the rig worked. Today, however, with roller furling genoas the norm, it is no longer an effective rig by itself. When the wind gets up the skipper is left with no option but to roll up the jenny to a safe size. In 50 knots of wind that’s a very small, sadly misshapen and inefficient headsail. Downright dangerous on a lee shore. I can’t imagine not having some ready headsail alternatives for hard conditions, be it Solent, staysail or even changing roller jibs as the old timers changed their hank-on’s.
Tor
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Tor,
The only advantage of the Solent Stay for me is the lack of running backstays. There's enough stuff already on this boat I wasn't looking to add to the complexity. Although, I”m sure Bob is right, the tree trunks Pearson called the main mast on these boats probably doesn't need a lot of additional support, even with the inner stay attached between the spreaders and the masthead. The runners probably don't need to be deployed under most conditions.
The Solent design allowed me to add it to the boat with the minimum of engineering. The deck attachment was copied from Jack Tyler, who copied it from Hal Sutphen, who copied it from the attachment Pearson used for the cutter rigged 424s. Interestingly, Hal did not go with the Solent rig, but an inner stay with runners. So for me the trade off was between being having to furl the genoa when tacking (or remove the stay) and adding the complexity of runners. Although I believe tacking a 135% genoa with the inner stay in place is probably not a thing of beauty. Most double-headed rigs I've seen do not have large overlapping genos, of course they also have much larger fore triangles than the 424 ketch.I may still convert from Solent to Inner Stay if I decide I would like the convenience of the stay sail on a roller-furler. Of course the stock market would have to come back to 2004 levels for the convenience to be affordable.
The lack of engineering support used for the Solent install, was not necessarily a good thing. I think I've related in another discussion that the sail maker I went to for the stay sail knew no more than I what was required. The stay sail he made was too large for its intended purpose – reducing the head sail below that of a partially furled genoa and keeping the CE near the center of the boat. The stay sail I used for two ocean passages was a little larger than my genoa at 40% furled. So when I needed to reduce sail, I had the choice of going on deck and raising the stay sail or just furling the genoa a little more. Guess what happened. That stay sail rarely got used.
John
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi Tor,The solent stay is just as John explained. You can also run double head sails downwind and have the boat balanced pretty well as they're close in size. I know people with them who never use the main jib. Imagine that. I'm guessing, when sailing the Solent, the sail changes are minimized using the device because the winds remain fairly steady.
All the advantages you mention for a staysail are correct – in fact, I have a storm staysail that has a reef point! I would be heartily terrified to need that puppy reefed, I have to tell you. Another advantage of the staysail v. the solent is that managing it in bad weather is easier – it's a smaller sail, it's closer to things to hold on to, and it makes the overall rig more balanced and easier to manage for a singlehander. I,personally, am not that fond of furling a big sail part way for extended periods of time -sure for a quick sail down the Long Island Sound, fine, but for days or weeks even, not so much. Out or in. The staysail can be deployed all the time, except when going dead downwind. Then it's just annoying.
Here's a tip – I got new sail covers. It turns out that the old mizzen sail cover works spectacularly as the staysail cover and I leave the whole mess hanked on all the time.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Ah, thank you John. I really was ignorant of that and I'm glad to learn more. Having the Solent stay removable for day sails makes all the difference, though is seems an awfully long wire to move aside – it must overlap the rail by a few feet – and cumbersome if it carries roller furling.
Offhand I can think of 3 advantages to the staysail: (1) The extra slot created adds power to the rig when flown with the genoa – Bob says it gives his boat an extra knot, (2) you can often tack a genoa thru that slot so the wire can remain in place much of the time, and (3) the staysail as a heavy weather headsail – especially as a storm jib when deep-reefed or replaced with a dedicated storm jib – is closer to the boat's center of gravity, a more stable placement of that sail's force. I'm curious. What advantages of the Solent rig over the double headsail (Bob's muahaha “cutter ketch”) rig caused you to choose that instead?
Tor
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Your explanations are much appreciated, John. Initially I hoped to avoid running backs by attaching my inner forestay just a foot or so above the spreaders, but gave that up because it created a staysail too small for anything but storm jib service. Now I’ll follow Bob Fine’s example of securing rarely used but comfortingly available running backs that’ll mostly live on the rail just abaft the main aft lowers, but can be shifted well aft and cinched up in a real blow.
Tor
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Hi Tor,
Although in the bad old days of 1978 hank on sails were still the norm, I think Pearson's philosophy of the ketch was a relatively large boat that could be comfortably managed by two people over a wide range of sailing conditions. The ketch, while carrying nearly the same sail as the sloop provides a rig with sails that are smaller and far easier to hand in when things get dicey. Pearson always designed and built pretty tough boats (the 10M as the exception because it competed with the Tartan 10), and they were, to my humble opinion, one of the 'sailor's yacht builders' (think the Ariel and Triton, both circumnavigated many times). I think their market was what is now filled by boats like Island Packet and Valiant and so forth.
I know that since I was a newbie I always wanted a ketch with a staysail knowing that as I got older it would get tougher to deal with the sails. So far, it hasn't happened, as I am still young at heart, mind, and mostly body. Ok, I'm a little creaky on some days… but you get my drift. My aunt and uncle sailed an 8 Meter into their 80's with a 60' foot mast carrying an ungodly amount of sail, in the thousands of square feet. Yet they still sailed up to the mooring and did some of the classic boat races on the sound with only the slightest amount of gnashing of teeth. True, it took a long time for my uncle to get the sail up at the end, but still it was amazing (as were the sazeracs afterwards).
All I'm saying is as we get older, we sail smarter. Or rather, that's what I'm hoping.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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You can cut the solent stay wire for the correct length when it is attached to the rail. When you want to attach it to the chainplate, add a short section to correct the length. I’ve collected all the parts but not yet hooked it up.
Rich
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Aha! Great minds, indeed. I did the same thing – added a wire tail that remained on the foredeck fitting – when I set up the inner forestay on my last boat. The stay and quick release lever were then the right length to stow at the rail alongside the mast. Worked out just fine. I’ll probably do it again on this boat. Hadn’t thought you could do that with a Solent stay, they being necessarily longer, but if you can good on you, mate.
I’m in the midst of assembling and mounting the hardware for my inner forestay. Got the mast hound from the machine shop 2 days ago, fussed with it yesterday and today, and am now procrastinating going aloft to drill the mounting holes in my mast. The hefty Holt folding double-pad-eye deck fitting arrived just this morning via Fed Ex, a mere month and change after I ordered it from Port Supply. (I guess their suppliers sometimes procrastinate, too.) The big L-shaped backing plate w/strut that ties the deck fitting & underlying foredeck to the chain locker bulkhead belowdecks is being welded up today. The whole is coming together bit by bit.
Meanwhile, several other projects going simultaneously, as usual. And I’m scheduled to haul out any time now. Busy boy.
Tor
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Island Packet, maybe. Valiant’s in another league altogether.
Kudos to your aunt & uncle!
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
Follow this link to the Bedouin VII as she stands now, completely rebuilt and refurbished. She sold for 10,000 when my aunt and uncle parted with her.
http://www.unitedyacht.com/yachts/1934/brochurenh.pdf
Bob
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Island Packet, maybe. Valiant's in another league altogether.
Kudos to your aunt & uncle!
Tor
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Aye, she was of a time ever so much more elegant than the present. What a beauty!
Tor
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Thanks – it was her Dyer Dinghy that I terrorized Port Washington with – tacking in and out of the moorings at the highest speed I could without capsizing.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Aye, she was of a time ever so much more elegant than the present. What a beauty!
Tor
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Re: Solent stays,
Ours is removable. Stowing it is a bit of pain, but the sail is only used occasionally. Securing a padeye for an inner forestay and rigging running backstays, though, seems to me to be a bigger pain, especially the work needed beoow the foredeck. And at that, some use removable forestays to facilitate tacking the Genoa.
Our Soelent stay supporting a hanked on high-cut Yankee works great in strong winds when beating, but is not good in light airs. I tried using it on an upwind course in Raritan Bay (inside Sandy Hook, NJ) in light airs, but could not generate much lift. I surmise that the rolled up Genoa creates turbulence that is not a problem in a force four or five wind.
Norris Larson, Easy Reach, #203.
els <> wrote:
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Thanks for that feedback, Norris. You’re right that there’s a bit more up front work involved installing a staysail rig as opposed to a Solent, but it’s proving less difficult than I thought it was going to be. Like most boat projects, it boils down to a lot of small, doable steps, one after the other. In any case, for the kind of sailing I envision for myself I believe it’ll pay long term dividends that’ll more than justify the extra effort now.
Clearly, though, those of you with Solent rigs are happy with them and that’s all that really matters.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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