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While we’re in paint mode, has anyone ever added animal grade tetracycline (antibiotic) to their antifouling
paint? I met an experienced cruiser today who swears by it. Says he buys it in powder form at any ordinary
feed store and adds a 10 gram packet to each gallon of the cheapest bottom paint he can find. Swears it keeps
his boat’s bottom growth-free, and particularly barnacle-free, for years at a time in the most challenging
tropical waters. Apparently tetracycline, or tetracycline hydrochloride, is the active ingredient in the
Starbrite product called Compound-X anti-fouling paint additive. Main difference is you get to pay a lot more
for it at West Marine.I just Googled this subject and found several other cruiser testimonials. I’m amazed I hadn’t heard of it
before. Wondering whether anyone here has tried it.Also, any words of wisdom for antifouling the bronze prop & shaft?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
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Easy, now. I’ve never claimed to live a low impact life, Pat, and doubt whether any of us are innocent of leaving a trail. Still, we all care about our ocean.
“A recent Yachting magazine article advocated the use of capsules of the antibiotic tetracycline to be added to cheap copper-based paints. The impact of such a paint on non-target bacteria, algae and oysters was investigated. Tetracycline was found to leach rapidly from painted surfaces and degrade quickly in seawater. The concentrations released were insufficient to cause any deleterious effects on marine organisms, including those responsible for fouling boat hulls. (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/has-anybody-used-this-bottom-paint-10997.html)
Next?
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
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Tor,
Bravo, I enjoy your entries.
Adam
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The quote you reference below actually links to a 1993 article with research where the abstract says that there was little impact. That’s 15 year old research and I didn’t find any works which reproduced the results, but it still sounds interesting. I read some article that cite this original research (Peterson, S.M., Batley, G.E. and Scammell, M.S. (1993). Tetracycline in antifouling paints. Marine Pollution Bulletin 26(2), 96-100.) and one mentioned that the finding was that “One possible explanation for this may be that Oxytetracycline is photo-degradable in surfacewaters as has been reported for Tetracycline (Peterson et al. 1993).” (http://www.great-er.org/files/schowanek_pharma_paper2000.pdf)
There are also more recent studies like this one from 2006 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/e1j33x5528316m63/) which state “The data indicate that planktonic bacteria can be very sensitive to tetracycline at extremely low concentrations and that microbial production is seriously affected.” In the opening page which you can read there they directly call out the previsou findings about tetracycline being benign in water.
I certainly didn’t do an exhaustive review of the literature, but a very cursory review of material which cited the previous 1993 article finds more recent data which seems to dispute those 15 year old findings.
-p
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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
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Ok, for the bronze shaft and prop, use a spray zinc paint. It works very well. I forget the brand, but it's available at West and Defenders. There is something else that I've found ok in northern waters that may work. Believe it or not, a heavy, sticky grease, like cosmolene or lithium wheel bearing grease schmeered on the prop and shaft work. Make sure not to get the grease between the zincs and shaft. The zinc spray paint with grease is even better. This year I'm going to try some teflon grease.
As far as bottom paint goes, there's a product I'm dying to try – it's from http://www.epoxyproducts.com/copper4u.html – a low V epoxy with copper added. First, I love the copper color bottoms. I tried the Petit Copper Bottom paint in the 80's and found that the color had nothing to do with actual copper. In fact, as bottom paints went, the critters loved it. They grew better on that paint then they did on unpainted surfaces.
However, ablating talc (the thickener and color holder in most bottom paints) doesn't seem like a terrific solution either. The copper and epoxy sounds really good for a multi-year hard bottom paint. I may try that this year. The downside, of course, is that you need to 1. get rid of all your current paint and 2. your bottom will end up green no matter what. That's what copper does.
From experience, though, this paint http://www.supershipbottom.com/PAINT%20SPECS.htm is pretty good – lots of copper, ablative, easy to apply (like water), and relatively inexpensive as it goes a long way. I've used it with two coats full hull, four around the waterline and the bottom is good for two years at least, depending on the amount of scrubbing. It's a medium hard ablative. It sticks to any previous bottom paint. The downside? It sticks to any previous bottom paint – the sovlents are really, really toxic and you need to use breathing masks to apply it. The good thing is you can do all the bottom in one day.
Finally, there is this ecologically sound bottom paint from http://www.epaint.com/ – if you are really that concerned, then you won't mind spending $250/gallon for the paint. I can't vouch for its effectiveness, although I have to say that there are some good reviews.
I have a friend that takes a gallon of the cheapest bottom paint he can get, dissolves a tube of silicone in a quart of xylene, mixes it with the bottom paint and applies one coat every year. When the boat comes out of the water every fall, the bottom is clean as a whistle with only a little scum on it. He has the bottom scrubbed maybe three times during the summer. I can also tell you that adding hot pepper powder to a bottom paint doesn't work.
Regards,
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Bob,
Good info. You should write a book! How much $$ is that Ship Superbottom paint?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Thanks for that additional input, Pat. Pretty dry reading, but the only reference I could find to tetracycline in the first report said, “Oxytetracycline is photo-degradable in surface waters as has been reported for Tetracycline (Peterson et al. 1993).” I assure you I will do everything in my power to keep my boat’s bottom at the ocean’s surface, where the chemical can photo-degrade. The second report you referenced, “Impacts of Tetracycline on Planktonic Bacterial Production in Prairie Aquatic Systems,” does not address ocean waters at all and the sentence you quoted from it refers to river bacteria.
In fact, I agree with your sentiment, truly. I don’t want to hurt the ocean. Tetracycline may (or may not) effect oceanic planktonic bacteria up to some unspecified distance in unknown concentrations. It certainly affects the adjacent organisms that build barnacles, because by all accounts they don’t on boats employing that treatment. So, to some extent, do cuprous oxide and all the other really deadly stuff created by Dow Chemical and loaded into the various antifouling paints we use, not to mention acetone, epoxy, polyurethane, engine emissions, and so on ad nauseum. All these things leech into the environment and “impact” the life around them. Tetracycline may, too, but is that really “leaching antibiotics into every ecosystem (I) enter?” On some very localized level, yes, it obviously is, but I do not believe the coral reefs of the Caribbean will die because I passed that way.
In my opinion, the only way we can remain impact-free is to avoid owning a boat (or a car or, for that matter, a house) altogether. All these things are horrible polluters in a hundred different ways and contrary to nature. I truly wish it were otherwise, and I have actually considered the option of returning to a (nearly) impact-free life as an ascetic, a path I followed for some years a long time ago. For now, however, I’m a sailor and must do my best to keep my boat going.
As I said, I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, but I don’t think there’s a whole lot of difference between deterring and even killing adjacent bacteria with one chemical or another.
Anyway, my original question was whether or not anyone among us has tried tetracycline in their bottom paint. I take it the answer is no.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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If I may jump in here for a moment, one must realize why copper works and what the effect of photo-degradable tetracycline would be on ocean life. Copper and copper oxides are distasteful to marine life. The fact that our paint is loaded with it and is ablative is because we don't want the expense of coating our bottom with copper sheeting. As a matter of fact, using copper sheets from Home Depot (not the cheapest source) you could coat the whole bottom in copper and do it for less than 10 years of bottom painting with ablatives. Not only that but you'd get a wonderful ground plane for your radio. The downside is that it's hard to bond with the hull and you would have to maintain it when hauled.
Tetracycline, like any other antibiotic, will in some form or other get into the environment. However, it does that already through elimination from animals and people being treated (what is not metabolized is passed through the urine). There are arguments that flooding the environment with antibiotics is bad for us because it makes the environmental microbes stronger and more resistant to antibiotics (Nietzsche said, “What does not kill you makes you stronger.” Or, Vat doesn't keel you makes you strunger.) That said, it tetracycline is photo-degradable, at the depths we leach it (no more than 7 feet or so) the strength of the sun should do the job.
From the perspective of our leaching of chemicals into the environment, compared to industrial, farming, and municipal waste being dumped we're less than a drop in the bucket.
Bob
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Thanks for that additional input, Pat. Pretty dry reading, but the only reference I could find to tetracycline in the first report said, “Oxytetracycline is photo-degradable in surface waters as has been reported for Tetracycline (Peterson et al. 1993).” I assure you I will do everything in my power to keep my boat's bottom at the ocean's surface, where the chemical can photo-degrade. The second report you referenced, “Impacts of Tetracycline on Planktonic Bacterial Production in Prairie Aquatic Systems,” does not address ocean waters at all and the sentence you quoted from it refers to river bacteria.
In fact, I agree with your sentiment, truly. I don't want to hurt the ocean. Tetracycline may (or may not) effect oceanic planktonic bacteria up to some unspecified distance in unknown concentrations. It certainly affects the adjacent organisms that build barnacles, because by all accounts they don't on boats employing that treatment. So, to some extent, do cuprous oxide and all the other really deadly stuff created by Dow Chemical and loaded into the various antifouling paints we use, not to mention acetone, epoxy, polyurethane, engine emissions, and so on ad nauseum. All these things leech into the environment and “impact” the life around them. Tetracycline may, too, but is that really “leaching antibiotics into every ecosystem (I) enter?” On some very localized level, yes, it obviously is, but I do not believe the coral reefs of the Caribbean will die because I passed that way.
In my opinion, the only way we can remain impact-free is to avoid owning a boat (or a car or, for that matter, a house) altogether. All these things are horrible polluters in a hundred different ways and contrary to nature. I truly wish it were otherwise, and I have actually considered the option of returning to a (nearly) impact-free life as an ascetic, a path I followed for some years a long time ago. For now, however, I'm a sailor and must do my best to keep my boat going.
As I said, I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, but I don't think there's a whole lot of difference between deterring and even killing adjacent bacteria with one chemical or another.
Anyway, my original question was whether or not anyone among us has tried tetracycline in their bottom paint. I take it the answer is no.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob
Epoxyproducts is not far from where I live. I’m headed there next week to pick up some epoxy to coat my brightwork. As I said earlier, I had planned to use their product to put on a barrier coat but I delayed the project when the recession hit. I’ll talk to him about adding a copper addidive. From what I’ve read, he’s not enthusiastic about it. I’ll see if I can get some more information from him.There’s a hardwood supply store about 10 miles from him, http://www.goosebaylumber.com/ . That’s where I get my teak. I’m planning to pick up a half-sheet of teak plywood to repair water damage around one of my portlights. I’ve previously purchased both teak and holly from them at pretty good prices.
Rich
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Hi Rich,
I'd be interested to see what you find at the epoxy place. Does anyone know how many gallons of bottom paint we should be using? I think I'm going to take the easy road and get it from the Super Shipbottom place. As much as I love the copper… I may try to copper foil the rudder, though, as an experiment.
Bob
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s/v Pelican
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Bob,
I just emailed Super Shipbottom for a shipping price to my yard. Using their online formula, I figured on 3 gallons for two complete coats, plus another coat around the waterline. They say that’ll keep the boat’s bottom clean for 2 years of fulltime immersion. I’d be amazed if it really did.
Not 100% decided to use that paint yet. Still have one more local source to check a little later today.
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
I figured out a little more than three gallons for those guys. Here's what I can tell you from experience: The paint will last 2 years with periodic light cleaning. In brackish water, the only growth is a bit of slime. In full salt water (Long Island Sound), with runoff from Westchester (Eastchester Bay) it lasts 2 years with the only growth being a grassy stuff along the waterline to about a foot down.
I suspect that growth in the Caribbean is less than here – and more biased towards shellfish (barnacles). This is because the Sound and north Atlantic is more heavily loaded with nutrients than the mid Atlantic to the Caribbean (the salt concentration there is much higher – less microscopic life – hence, clearer water).
As a side note, perfectly clear water is dead water. The lakes in northern New York State are beautiful, blue, clear water and totally dead. They used to be tea colored with teaming microscopic life. Acid rain has leached all the limestone away in the soil and acidified the lakes. Lovely to swim in but cold. Dead as a doornail.
Anyway, I could be wrong about the growth down there but would like to learn from anyone's experience.
I expect to dive the boat regularly when in warmer waters, so am not so worried about the growth.
Bob
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
I just emailed Super Shipbottom for a shipping price to my yard. Using their online formula, I figured on 3 gallons for two complete coats, plus another coat around the waterline. They say that'll keep the boat's bottom clean for 2 years of fulltime immersion. I'd be amazed if it really did.
Not 100% decided to use that paint yet. Still have one more local source to check a little later today.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob,
The water in the Bahamas is perfectly clear. I can see small fish on the bottom in over 10' of water. The bottom of my dinghy is covered with growth in about 2 weeks. Better bring a few more cans of that Super Shipbottom if you head this way.John
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi Tor,I figured out a little more than three gallons for those guys. Here's what I can tell you from experience: The paint will last 2 years with periodic light cleaning. In brackish water, the only growth is a bit of slime. In full salt water (Long Island Sound), with runoff from Westchester (Eastchester Bay) it lasts 2 years with the only growth being a grassy stuff along the waterline to about a foot down.
I suspect that growth in the Caribbean is less than here – and more biased towards shellfish (barnacles). This is because the Sound and north Atlantic is more heavily loaded with nutrients than the mid Atlantic to the Caribbean (the salt concentration there is much higher – less microscopic life – hence, clearer water).
As a side note, perfectly clear water is dead water. The lakes in northern New York State are beautiful, blue, clear water and totally dead. They used to be tea colored with teaming microscopic life. Acid rain has leached all the limestone away in the soil and acidified the lakes. Lovely to swim in but cold. Dead as a doornail.
Anyway, I could be wrong about the growth down there but would like to learn from anyone's experience.
I expect to dive the boat regularly when in warmer waters, so am not so worried about the growth.
Bob
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
I just emailed Super Shipbottom for a shipping price to my yard. Using their online formula, I figured on 3 gallons for two complete coats, plus another coat around the waterline. They say that'll keep the boat's bottom clean for 2 years of fulltime immersion. I'd be amazed if it really did.
Not 100% decided to use that paint yet. Still have one more local source to check a little later today.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob,
You’re probably right about “a little more than three gallons.” I have a quart of Petit Trinidad laying around, which I could use for the final waterline coating. It’s got a little more cuprous oxide than the Shipbottom stuff anyway.
My plans this year include the East Coast this summer, then the Windward Islands. The paint should get a thorough workout. Like you, I’m used to scrubbing the bottom periodically, but only in warm, clean, clear water. Like in Martinique!
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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John,
How’s your bottom paint holding up out there? What kind is it? How old?
I believe there are antifouling paints for inflatables (if that’s what you have). Have not used any myself, and probably won’t need to now that I have a boat with davits. Anyway, I suppose it’s easy enough to beach & clean your dink in the Bahamas.
Tor
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Hi John,
What kind of paint on your hull? Do you have a RIB? What kind of paint on your dinghy?
Thanks,
Bob
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:23 AM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
The water in the Bahamas is perfectly clear. I can see small fish on the bottom in over 10' of water. The bottom of my dinghy is covered with growth in about 2 weeks. Better bring a few more cans of that Super Shipbottom if you head this way.John
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi Tor,I figured out a little more than three gallons for those guys. Here's what I can tell you from experience: The paint will last 2 years with periodic light cleaning. In brackish water, the only growth is a bit of slime. In full salt water (Long Island Sound), with runoff from Westchester (Eastchester Bay) it lasts 2 years with the only growth being a grassy stuff along the waterline to about a foot down.
I suspect that growth in the Caribbean is less than here – and more biased towards shellfish (barnacles). This is because the Sound and north Atlantic is more heavily loaded with nutrients than the mid Atlantic to the Caribbean (the salt concentration there is much higher – less microscopic life – hence, clearer water).
As a side note, perfectly clear water is dead water. The lakes in northern New York State are beautiful, blue, clear water and totally dead. They used to be tea colored with teaming microscopic life. Acid rain has leached all the limestone away in the soil and acidified the lakes. Lovely to swim in but cold. Dead as a doornail.
Anyway, I could be wrong about the growth down there but would like to learn from anyone's experience.
I expect to dive the boat regularly when in warmer waters, so am not so worried about the growth.
Bob
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
I just emailed Super Shipbottom for a shipping price to my yard. Using their online formula, I figured on 3 gallons for two complete coats, plus another coat around the waterline. They say that'll keep the boat's bottom clean for 2 years of fulltime immersion. I'd be amazed if it really did.
Not 100% decided to use that paint yet. Still have one more local source to check a little later today.
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob,
FYI, I just bought a 5-gallon can of International Paints red ablative bottom paint, 40% or 42% cuprous oxide, for $200. Got it over the phone from that other “local source” I said earlier that I’d check with. It’s the used boat gear place in St. Augustine, called Sailor’s Exchange (phone 904-808-0667). My buddy who works there, Jim, uses it on his liveaboard sailboat and says it’s good stuff. I’m even getting free delivery because my neighbor on the pier here just happened to be standing at the store counter when I called.
Life is good.
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob, Tor,
I have a RIB, but I don't paint the bottom as I haul the dink on deck when underway. I don't want scrape bottom paint of on the deck during that operation. After a month at anchor I pull the dink on deck and scrap the crud off the bottom. The anchor wash down cleans that off the deck. I get a few small barnacles, but most of the crud comes off with a sponge or a scotchbrite pad.
I think the bottom paint on Sarah is Trinidad. I don't do bottoms. You don't see a lot of old guys doing bottoms in the boat yards. Some believe it is because they eventually get better jobs. I'm not sure many of the young guys I've met who do bottoms are capable of a better job. This may just be another way of cleaning up the gene pool.
When we finally get an environment-friendly bottom paint I may go back to doing it myself. For now I'll just do my part to improve the gene pool.John
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
FYI, I just bought a 5-gallon can of International Paints red ablative bottom paint, 40% or 42% cuprous oxide, for $200. Got it over the phone from that other “local source” I said earlier that I'd check with. It's the used boat gear place in St. Augustine, called Sailor's Exchange (phone 904-808-0667). My buddy who works there, Jim, uses it on his liveaboard sailboat and says it's good stuff. I'm even getting free delivery because my neighbor on the pier here just happened to be standing at the store counter when I called.
Life is good.
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob,
Depending on how generous you are with each coat, you can roll on one coat with about 1 gal of paint. If you put it on thicker, you may need a little more. I usually plan on a little more because I paint my dinghy and usually put an extra coat up near the water line.Rich
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Hi Tor,
I plan to write a book, actually, but not just about bottom paint. Here's the site and the price delivered: $125/gal. Now, I happen to know Frank, I think, and if you tell him that you were recommended by a customer he'll give you a discount, maybe. I expect to get one, too, if I use the paint this year, as I've purchased from him for a number of years. Check this site: http://www.supershipbottom.com/
Bob
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
Good info. You should write a book! How much $$ is that Ship Superbottom paint?
Tor
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FYI the RIB specialists at LRSI in Portsmouth RI manage our RHIB and recommend the following:-
Here is a link to the paint that LRSI used on the hull of the RHIB http://www.pettitpaint.com/vivid.asp
This is a link to the paint that is on the tube set http://www.boatersworld.com/product/376620092.htm
These applications will prevent rib and tube fouling without affecting the unique rib and tube materials.
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