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My very first job in the boating world I ended up being responsible aligning the engine and shaft (I just spent 2 months boring in place the custom bronze strut casting, stuffing box etc after I machined and drilled them along with mounting them with appropriate hardware on the hull of the boat) which I had never done before but they (co-workers, boss) all felt confident I could do a good job once they told me what I had to do and what I had to do it with….”we’d like to see it within one .001″ of an inch but two thousands would be fine.
One of the guys told me….” it might take it you all day or even more but it HAS to right”
I love a challenge and I got through that one in a little more than half a day within .0015″ Since then I’ve had more than a few alignments under my belt and even let them slip into the .003″ without any problems.
Now the V-Drive thing I admit is a bit new to me and seems to have a larger variable than a straight flange to a straight flange, as that’s all I’ve ever done. On my 424, I got some vibration at the V-drive. As in….it has the shakes and it can be felt at the cockpit sole. I will be honest, I haven’t even taken a good look at the whole set-up but am getting ready to dig in so to speak and see if there is an issue I should be looking into.
Has anybody had a vibration issues and if so was the alignment a problem or is there some other quirky thing special to these old girls with that ” red box going backwards in the middle”? I have no clue (cause I haven’t really looked yet) the tolerances of this rigs alignment. Anybody got any advise?
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Ken,
Someone else (or else the V-drive manual) can walk you through the alignment
procedure. I was just wondering whether you’ve checked the cutlass bearing
and prop balance.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor, I’ll be sure to check those when I haul out but for now I figured I’d check the alignment while in the water. The PO mentioned having the shaft from the engine to the V-drive off for some reason.
Ken
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Ken,
Unless you have a long way to go before you reach the boat yard, you may
want to just wait and re-align the whole drive train when you re-launch.The shaft between the engine and the V-drive, which I call the jack shaft,
is aligned by first bolting the coupling at the transmission and then using
the V-drive’s several positioning adjustments to align the forward coupling,
where the jack shaft couples to the V-drive. The Walter V-drive manual
explains exactly how to do that. If you don’t have the manual I can email it
to you as a PDF file.Once the jack shaft is aligned, you then align the propeller shaft to
V-drive coupling as you would any other prop shaft coupling.If the boat has been running out of alignment for a while, it may need a new
cutlass bearing now. (Let me know if you have trouble removing the old one
and I’ll tell you a few tricks I learned when doing mine.) If/when you do
replace the cutlass bearing you’ll have to pull the prop shaft. You may as
well have it checked and trued on the lathe at Coats’ Machine Shop at the
marina road entrance. Chuck Coats is a good ol’ country boy and he won’t
overcharge you. (He’s also great at working with you to create custom bits &
pieces during your refit. Tell him I said hey.)While you’re at it, it does no harm (and might do some good) to also have
the propeller “reconditioned” if the PO never did. It only costs about $100.
Just bring it into the marina office, tell them what you want, and they’ll
have it picked up and delivered back within a week.If your V-drive has never been rebuilt, consider having that done by the
Walter factory in New Jersey. It isn’t cheap, but those things don’t last
forever on their own.Have fun,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor,
I will risk correcting Tor however I just read the Walter manual and
aligned my whole drive system since I just put the boat in the water
with a new engine recently. The v-drive is aligned to the prop shaft
first (and locked down) then the engine(jack shaft) is aligned to the
v-drive. How could you adjust the prop alignment if the v-drive were
already aligned to the engine?Definitely do it in the water, after the boat has settled a day or few.
Pete
On 10/21/2013 9:08 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Ken,Unless you have a long way to go before you reach the boat yard, you may
want to just wait and re-align the whole drive train when you re-launch.The shaft between the engine and the V-drive, which I call the jack shaft,
is aligned by first bolting the coupling at the transmission and then using
the V-drive’s several positioning adjustments to align the forward coupling,
where the jack shaft couples to the V-drive. The Walter V-drive manual
explains exactly how to do that. If you don’t have the manual I can email it
to you as a PDF file.Once the jack shaft is aligned, you then align the propeller shaft to
V-drive coupling as you would any other prop shaft coupling.If the boat has been running out of alignment for a while, it may need a new
cutlass bearing now. (Let me know if you have trouble removing the old one
and I’ll tell you a few tricks I learned when doing mine.) If/when you do
replace the cutlass bearing you’ll have to pull the prop shaft. You may as
well have it checked and trued on the lathe at Coats’ Machine Shop at the
marina road entrance. Chuck Coats is a good ol’ country boy and he won’t
overcharge you. (He’s also great at working with you to create custom bits &
pieces during your refit. Tell him I said hey.)While you’re at it, it does no harm (and might do some good) to also have
the propeller “reconditioned” if the PO never did. It only costs about $100.
Just bring it into the marina office, tell them what you want, and they’ll
have it picked up and delivered back within a week.If your V-drive has never been rebuilt, consider having that done by the
Walter factory in New Jersey. It isn’t cheap, but those things don’t last
forever on their own.Have fun,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Actually, I was wondering that as well. The jack shaft has universal joints
on both ends with the capability of being offset by perhaps 10 degrees or
so, maybe more. The only critical alignment is the prop shaft.Bob
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Quote:Tor,I will risk correcting Tor however I just read the Walter manual and
aligned my whole drive system since I just put the boat in the water with a
new engine recently. The v-drive is aligned to the prop shaft first (and
locked down) then the engine(jack shaft) is aligned to the v-drive. How
could you adjust the prop alignment if the v-drive were already aligned to
the engine?Definitely do it in the water, after the boat has settled a day or few.
Pete
On 10/21/2013 9:08 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Ken,Unless you have a long way to go before you reach the boat yard, you may
want to just wait and re-align the whole drive train when you re-launch.The shaft between the engine and the V-drive, which I call the jack shaft,
is aligned by first bolting the coupling at the transmission and then
using
the V-drive’s several positioning adjustments to align the forward
coupling,
where the jack shaft couples to the V-drive. The Walter V-drive manual
explains exactly how to do that. If you don’t have the manual I can email
it
to you as a PDF file.Once the jack shaft is aligned, you then align the propeller shaft to
V-drive coupling as you would any other prop shaft coupling.If the boat has been running out of alignment for a while, it may need a
new
cutlass bearing now. (Let me know if you have trouble removing the old one
and I’ll tell you a few tricks I learned when doing mine.) If/when you do
replace the cutlass bearing you’ll have to pull the prop shaft. You may as
well have it checked and trued on the lathe at Coats’ Machine Shop at the
marina road entrance. Chuck Coats is a good ol’ country boy and he won’t
overcharge you. (He’s also great at working with you to create custom
bits &
pieces during your refit. Tell him I said hey.)While you’re at it, it does no harm (and might do some good) to also have
the propeller “reconditioned” if the PO never did. It only costs about
$100.
Just bring it into the marina office, tell them what you want, and they’ll
have it picked up and delivered back within a week.If your V-drive has never been rebuilt, consider having that done by the
Walter factory in New Jersey. It isn’t cheap, but those things don’t last
forever on their own.Have fun,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Pete’s correct. In the water, starting with the prop shaft. The best way without removing the prop shaft on the hard is fixing the prop shaft at approximately ‘center’ position. You can check by diving and make sure it is centered at the hull, but sometimes the stuffing box tube is not centered with the propshaft. Regardless, fix the prop shaft at the proper position and then move the v-drive to get an exact match. Rotate the shaft 180 degrees to make sure it still aligns.
Next you move the engine to get spot on. Most vibrations are due to engine misalignment. When I installed a new rv-28 drive we made a dummy drive shaft to perfectly align the transmission output flange with the input shaft of the v-drive drive. We did this with the drive shaft out of the boat, using only the v-dive input shaft and the dummy shaft. You would be surprised to see how far 424’s engines are out of alignment. Contrary to popular belief, the propshaft u-joint MUST be aligned in all dimensions to eliminate issues.
The dummy shaft is just a section of pipe that slips over the input shaft on the v-drive; the other end is a welded flange that was trued in a lathe. Be sure you fix the input shaft on the v-drive at the center position. Move the engine in all dimensions until the flanges perfectly align. We did Shay over 10 years ago and never had a vibration issue.
Hank S.
Ketch Shay #90
Lighthouse Point, FL________________________________
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Thanks guys,
When I was cleaning the bilges and doing an all around peak, I did notice just by eye, that the “jack shaft” seemed to be coming out of the V-drive at a slight angle. Like I said, I didn’t look further into it at the time and put it on my mental back burner, but that seems to coincide with what Bob says. It would make sense to me to have the prop shaft and the v-drive right on the money, but what do I know at this time.
This sounds like a good discussion, even if I am starting it a little premature, I have to finish my new line locker….thankyouverymuchTor… and uncluster-fluck before I dig in to the next project.
I’ll find the manual (pretty sure I have one Tor) and have a read maybe later today.
Thanks,
Ken -
Thanks, Pete. I stand corrected. I actually had a mechanic do the alignment
last spring when I re-installed my re-built V-drive. Very possible that I
remembered (or understood) the procedure incorrectly. In any case,
Silverheels has no vibration at any RPM and no wear on the cutlass bearing
so far, so whichever way he did it worked.I must remember never to offer mechanical advice. I am not a mechanic.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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The prop-shaft is not aligned with the centerline of the boat. It is offset by a few inches at the prop end. This may have been done to assure that you can pull the shaft without hitting the rudder strut or it may be to partially compensate for the tendency of the boat to pull to port when running in forward gear. For whatever reason, it means that the v-drive is actually offset when aligned and so must be the engine alignment.
Alignment of the engine to the v-drive is not as critical as the rest of the drivetrain but alignment is required. Walter provides an alignment tool for this purpose. I don’t really think it matters what order you align the stuff in as long as it all ends up within tolerance. I found that alignment of the V-drive to the shaft requires patience. I’ve had to align the stuff, give it a trial run, and repeat several times to get it right. I don’t know what tolerance is permissible. I try for zero. .002 may not be close enough.
You are wasting your time if the shaft or flange is bent. It’s easy to bend a shaft if you wrap a line.
When properly aligned, the engine runs like silk at full RPM. There may be a bit of vibration if you stand on the cabin sole right next to the engine but none elsewhere.
Rich
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Very nice solution Hank.
Can I borrow your dummy shaft?
Pete
On 10/21/2013 9:57 AM, hs wrote:
Quote:Pete’s correct. In the water, starting with the prop shaft. The best way without removing the prop shaft on the hard is fixing the prop shaft at approximately ‘center’ position. You can check by diving and make sure it is centered at the hull, but sometimes the stuffing box tube is not centered with the propshaft. Regardless, fix the prop shaft at the proper position and then move the v-drive to get an exact match. Rotate the shaft 180 degrees to make sure it still aligns.Next you move the engine to get spot on. Most vibrations are due to engine misalignment. When I installed a new rv-28 drive we made a dummy drive shaft to perfectly align the transmission output flange with the input shaft of the v-drive drive. We did this with the drive shaft out of the boat, using only the v-dive input shaft and the dummy shaft. You would be surprised to see how far 424’s engines are out of alignment. Contrary to popular belief, the propshaft u-joint MUST be aligned in all dimensions to eliminate issues.
The dummy shaft is just a section of pipe that slips over the input shaft on the v-drive; the other end is a welded flange that was trued in a lathe. Be sure you fix the input shaft on the v-drive at the center position. Move the engine in all dimensions until the flanges perfectly align. We did Shay over 10 years ago and never had a vibration issue.
Hank S.
Ketch Shay #90
Lighthouse Point, FL________________________________
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OK. I’m now smack in the middle of this discussion….I have removed the cutlass bearing and old, worn (by.020 at the strut) bronze shaft and had a new quality SS shaft made. Also, just for a point of fact, there were signs of the shaft hitting at the stern tube with visual damage on the old shaft. Not much, I first thought maybe it was that big barnacle that took up house in the stern tube, now, no so much.
With new cutlass, new shaft, and my own get it done with what I have attitude, that has always worked out for me, I set about to get the new cutlass bearing in. I carefully (I have 15 years machinist background) filed a leading edge on the cutlass bearing brass to assure a nice starting lead to assure it started in straight. Before starting in the cutlass bearing, I installed the new shaft, attached the forward coupling and temp. bolted it to the v-drive (one end of the shaft is supposedly where it is supposed to be). I then greased the cutlass bearing and slipped it over the tapered end of the shaft and into place to get started inserting it into the strut. Once I felt it was started straight, I did my thing. Now I don’t need no fancy hydraulics or any over built home remedy to know if a 6′ long sleeve is going in straight and it becomes very obvious from the start with my background. With one bar clamp, yes, just one, and a soft hammer, I managed to get that bearing in almost about 2 inches. At that point (actually before then) there is NO DOUBT that it is going in straight in line with the strut body. Before I got this far, I thought that the shaft looked out of line with the strut and the stern tube. Hmmm!
As I continued to do my thing and get that bearing driven further into the strut, the shaft started getting tighter and tighter in that bearing. Hmmm! (maybe this is why the old strut was oblong top to bottom??)
After this, I see that my v-drive coupling is maybe 1/8″ high or maybe even “more” out of line with the strut/cutlass bearing. I imagine it’s just a vertical misalignment but dang it seems like a lot. My concern is, if I drop the v-drive down that much to align with the strut, will the engine still align with the v-drive within tolerance.
Has anyone seen these extremes? I know the most important alignment is shaft coupling to v-drive coupling. How the shaft aligns in the cutlass bearing isn’t all that important (kinda) other than excessive and premature wear of the cutlass bearing.
Sorry this is so long winded, just need to bounce it around.
Ken
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Ken, the alignment with the cutlass bearing is THE MOST IMPORTANT
alignment. The change of alignment with respect to the engine is probably
well within the allowable limits of that alignment. And unless you really
like changing the cutlass bearing, take care of that.Because the jack shaft has universal joints on either end you have
considerable play. Unless you’ve bent the strut, which is another thing
altogether. But if it’s a vertical adjustment and it’s only 1/8th inch,
I’d say you’re good to go – just do it. There is nothing to say it wasn’t
out of alignment before.Finally, you’ll check the alignment again once the boat’s in the water.
Don’t be surprised if you have to reverse most of what you’re doing now
when all the dust settles. For now, close enough is good enough. You’re
not going to run the shaft very fast until you’ve done the final alignment.A properly aligned shaft and cutlass should last years – lots of them. In
theory, when the shaft is running it’s not even touching the cutlass
inasmuch as it floats on a film of water.Good luck!
Bob
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
Ken, the alignment with the cutlass bearing is THE MOST IMPORTANT
alignment. The change of alignment with respect to the engine is probably
well within the allowable limits of that alignment. And unless you really
like changing the cutlass bearing, take care of that.Because the jack shaft has universal joints on either end you have
considerable play. Unless you’ve bent the strut, which is another thing
altogether. But if it’s a vertical adjustment and it’s only 1/8th inch,
I’d say you’re good to go – just do it. There is nothing to say it wasn’t
out of alignment before.Finally, you’ll check the alignment again once the boat’s in the water.
Don’t be surprised if you have to reverse most of what you’re doing now
when all the dust settles. For now, close enough is good enough. You’re
not going to run the shaft very fast until you’ve done the final alignment.A properly aligned shaft and cutlass should last years – lots of them. In
theory, when the shaft is running it’s not even touching the cutlass
inasmuch as it floats on a film of water.Good luck!
Bob
On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:33 PM, Page Two wrote:
OK. I’m now smack in the middle of this discussion….I have removed the
cutlass bearing and old, worn (by.020 at the strut) bronze shaft and had a
new quality SS shaft made. Also, just for a point of fact, there were signs
of the shaft hitting at the stern tube with visual damage on the old shaft.
Not much, I first thought maybe it was that big barnacle that took up house
in the stern tube, now, no so much.With new cutlass, new shaft, and my own get it done with what I have
attitude, that has always worked out for me, I set about to get the new
cutlass bearing in. I carefully (I have 15 years machinist background)
filed a leading edge on the cutlass bearing brass to assure a nice starting
lead to assure it started in straight. Before starting in the cutlass
bearing, I installed the new shaft, attached the forward coupling and temp.
bolted it to the v-drive (one end of the shaft is supposedly where it is
supposed to be). I then greased the cutlass bearing and slipped it over the
tapered end of the shaft and into place to get started inserting it into
the strut. Once I felt it was started straight, I did my thing. Now I don’t
need no fancy hydraulics or any over built home remedy to know if a 6′ long
sleeve is going in straight and it becomes very obvious from the start with
my background. With one bar clamp, yes, just one, and a soft hammer, I
managed to get that bearing in almost about 2 inches. At that point
(actually before then) there is NO DOUBT that it is going in straight in
line with the strut body. Before I got this far, I thought that the shaft
looked out of line with the strut and the stern tube. Hmmm!As I continued to do my thing and get that bearing driven further into
the strut, the shaft started getting tighter and tighter in that bearing.
Hmmm! (maybe this is why the old strut was oblong top to bottom??)After this, I see that my v-drive coupling is maybe 1/8″ high or maybe
even “more” out of line with the strut/cutlass bearing. I imagine it’s just
a vertical misalignment but dang it seems like a lot. My concern is, if I
drop the v-drive down that much to align with the strut, will the engine
still align with the v-drive within tolerance.Has anyone seen these extremes? I know the most important alignment is
shaft coupling to v-drive coupling. How the shaft aligns in the cutlass
bearing isn’t all that important (kinda) other than excessive and premature
wear of the cutlass bearing.Sorry this is so long winded, just need to bounce it around.
Ken
Ken and Vicky # 91……Writing a New Chapter Page by Page in an Old Book._______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Ken
I assume that you have the cutless bearing in by now. My yard used a threaded rod to press mine in many hears ago.I don’t remember that getting the shaft perfectly centered in the strut was a problem. The strut is slightly off center to facilitate shaft removal and counter the tendency of the boat to kick to port while underway. With enough power however, the force to port will overcome the autopilot.
Align the prop shaft and V-drive first. Get that pretty close but don’t go nuts since it will change once you get the boat in the water and let her sit for a couple of days. Align the engine to the V-drive jack-shaft using the tool provided by Walter. This is not critical and won’t have to be redone. If your engine shaft is out of alignment to the left or right, you need to change the roll angle on the V-drive. This should not be a problem however. Your engine may be low on her mounts if your mounts are old or if the engine bed has sagged.
Let the boat sit for a couple of days and carefully align the V-drive to the prop shaft using Walter’s instructions. Take the boat out for a short trip and run her up to max RPMs. If you have vibration, repeat. I had to do it about four times to get it right. I’m within about .002″
Rich
BlackSheep #47
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Thanks Bob, I needed to hear that. It could have been that way for years and with just recently talking with the PO he never checked. I know that you can still have a perfect coupling match but still have the strut not lined up. I doubt the strut was bent as it seems to line up with the stern tube fairly well.
Adjusting the couplings is one thing, this is the strut not in line with the v-drive. I’ll drop the v-drive to within a reasonable range making sure I still have adjustment from the engine. Then I’ll save the final adjustments when back in the water.
Rich, I would have used the threaded rod (would have been a trip to the store) but I tried the clamp and hammer…good enough.Thanks….(just one more thing!)
Ken
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