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I had an asymmetrical & sock on my last cruising boat. It took up a lot of space wherever I stowed it and, overall, I found I rarely used it when cruising. Maybe that was just my personal laziness. Have any long-term cruisers among you used yours a lot?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I use my asymmetrical spinnaker frequently (aka cruising chute). When not in use, I normally keep it in its bag up on the forward deck.
The 424 isn’t particularly fast when sailing downwind in light air. To be fair, most boats find downwind sailing in light conditions a challenge, but the 424 with its short rig seems to struggle more than most boats. A cruising chute isn’t a perfect answer, but it helps a lot. It works well with the apparent wind between 60deg and 120 deg. It can’t be flown in with the wind between about 120 degrees and 175 degrees unless the main is dropped. This sounds like a severe limitation, but the relative wind moves forward as boat speed increases. The boat will run directly downwind, but its a challenge for the helmsman to keep the sail from collapsing. It takes a minimum of two persons to sail the boat with a cruising chute, one in the cockpit and one on the foredeck. The same two persons can drop the sail if used with a sock. To fly the sail comfortably, you need a crew of four. One at the wheel, two at the winches, and one on the foredeck.
In light air, the sail adds about a knot downwind; more on a beam reach. As the apparent wind moves forward of the beam, the sail can overpower the boat.
I find the sail very useful and it adds a touch of class to the boat. If your cruising grounds include areas that have light wind and you have sufficient crew, I recommend the sail.
Photo attached
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Rich Carter
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That does look sharp, Rich, and the added speed off the wind is unquestionably a big plus. Are you normally living aboard and cruising your boat full time, or is she used more for daysails & weekends, plus occasional summer vacations? In the latter case, particularly in the Northeast, I can envision flying a spinnaker quite often, especially with a few crew aboard to lend a hand.
I guess I was asking whether people use the sail in practice while cruising, by which I mean one or two people who are living and traveling aboard the boat pretty much full time. You probably wouldn’t want to stow the sail on the foredeck for that kind of sailing, so the issue of storing such a large package belowdecks or in a locker then argues that the sail must really earn its keep. Perhaps – no, probably – I was just too laid back sailing my last cruising boat, single- and double-handing virtually the whole time as I was, but I think I flew that chute maybe 6 times in as many years. Wondered whether or not that’s common among other cruisers.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor
I weekend cruise and vacation on the boat.The sail bag is pretty large. It can be stowed in one of the cockpit lockers, but its a challenge to get it in there. In truth, the sail isn’t big, its bulky. If it were compressed into a smaller bag, I think the package could be much smaller. This would only make sense for extended periods of storage, but most long-distance cruisers that I know spend long periods of time at each destination.
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Rich Carter
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Well, there’s no doubt a cruising spinnaker would be an asset. I’m just constantly surprised (and dismayed) by how easily I can fill a boat to the brim in preparation for cruising, regardless of size. And I haven’t even figured out yet where the mountain bikes are going to fit!
BTW, my last chute spent most of it’s time in and around the cockpit, doing duty as a very expensive beanbag chair.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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my light air drifter and snuffer fit in a stuff sack and store easily under
the seat in the vee berth. I have a light (2.5 oz. I think) sail. It is so
ugly that I assume it is original. It looks like a tube sock from 1978.
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Hi Rich and Tor,
I flew my asym on my Ericson 34 by myself quite regularly and expect to with Pelican as well. With the autopilot engaged it's a snap to set and douse as long as you do it at a non-critical angle (dead downwind, reaching upwind). I'm not sure why you need 4 people… I actually don't know 4 people I'd sail with…
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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I don’t remember the weight of my former chute, but it and the sock would not have fit under that seat. Anyway, that space (like most in my boat) is already spoken for. Are you living aboard, Adam?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I guess the constant comments I hear about how often, or the hassles, etc.
with flying a spinnaker make me wonder if having it on a furler would solve
a lot of these issues. I know when we were on Walt’s boat sailing to Bermuda
this fall, we did bring in the spinnaker a soon as twilight hit and turned
on the engine. This was due to the concerns of taking it down in the dark if
the wind started to increase. Of course, as with all things on a boat, one
has to balance the cost versus the benefits. As a side benefit, furling the
sail tightly on itself may help with the storage issue down below.Paul
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Hi Paul,
With the sock, it still stows pretty small. For the 424's the thing isn't all that big and can be squished down a lot. I found that the thing in the sock that collects the the sail takes up more room than the sail, itself, almost.
Bob
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Paul Lefebvre < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I guess the constant comments I hear about how often, or the hassles, etc. with flying a spinnaker make me wonder if having it on a furler would solve a lot of these issues. I know when we were on Walt's boat sailing to Bermuda this fall, we did bring in the spinnaker a soon as twilight hit and turned on the engine. This was due to the concerns of taking it down in the dark if the wind started to increase. Of course, as with all things on a boat, one has to balance the cost versus the benefits. As a side benefit, furling the sail tightly on itself may help with the storage issue down below.
Paul
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Paul
I assume that putting the sail on a furler implies that the luff is attached to something and doesn’t fly free. My old boat had something similar. The sail was a compromise because it was smaller than a spinnaker and wasn’t cut full enough. I later purchased a light air 180% gennoa and found that more useful.
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Rich Carter
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Bob
As I said, I can set the chute with one crewmember in the cockpit and me on the foredeck. The reverse would work, but getting the halyard and sheets set properly is tricky. I don’t trust anyone else to get it right. You need someone in the cockpit to sheet in the lines. As the sock pulls up, someone needs to trim the sheet.To do it reliably, you need a helmsman. The autopilot won’t react to a small wind shift. That makes three. If you want to douse the gennoa as part of the maneuver, you need a second winch monkey. Four makes it easy.
If racing, we need two more. If you are setting it while rounding a mark, you need someone else on the main to control the gybe. You may want yet another person to tail the sheet so that the lines don’t get jammed.
This is a big sail. If you don’t set and douse it right you can get in trouble. It can wrap around the forestay or get dunked in the water and pulled off the deck if you screw up.
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Rich Carter
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Hi Rich,
I guess this is the difference between racing and cruising – I've been flying spinnakers solo for almost 30 years, both poled (end-for-end) and asyms. When I was racing, I had the full crew doing the job – foredeck person, trimmers, mastperson (I say person because they were very often women which I must say made it really hard to concentrate on steering, but of course that's a different issue and I digress).
When cruising, I set the lines approximately, or maybe even a little tighter than they will be trimmed properly so that when the sock goes up, the chute is not likely to flog and get tangled on the forestay. In addition, since it's already overtrimmed the tendency is for the boat to head up and keep the thing from the headstay. Also, I never set or douse it at a marginal direction – in other words, not dead downwind or reaching as high as it will go because both points of sail put the sail either dangerously out of reach beyond the bow or dangerously loaded respectively. I take my time and check each line before raising or lowering the spinnaker. It may take me 15 minutes to do, but I'm not racing… I did that, now I am a total cruiser.
Also, in the words of a wise man, I take it down before I can't take it down and don't put it up if the conditions don't warrant it. Certainly with Pelican, this point is hard to find. All my other boats were quite happy to tell me when they were overpowered. So far, I've found that when Pelican is overpowered there is considerable wind. Upwind in 22-26kts under full sail (staysail included) seems to approach being overpowered but as I am constantly reminded the 424 doesn't do drama.
So, Rich, there are the two schools of thought with spinnakers….
Bob
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 2:30 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob
As I said, I can set the chute with one crewmember in the cockpit and me on the foredeck. The reverse would work, but getting the halyard and sheets set properly is tricky. I don't trust anyone else to get it right. You need someone in the cockpit to sheet in the lines. As the sock pulls up, someone needs to trim the sheet.To do it reliably, you need a helmsman. The autopilot won't react to a small wind shift. That makes three. If you want to douse the gennoa as part of the maneuver, you need a second winch monkey. Four makes it easy.
If racing, we need two more. If you are setting it while rounding a mark, you need someone else on the main to control the gybe. You may want yet another person to tail the sheet so that the lines don't get jammed.
This is a big sail. If you don't set and douse it right you can get in trouble. It can wrap around the forestay or get dunked in the water and pulled off the deck if you screw up.
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Rich Carter
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Rich:
The luff is free on this furler ( or at least 99% free – there is a furling
line attached to the center point on the luff) See the video at the bottom
of this page:http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/default.asp
As far as size goes, the model for our boat, the AFX 2500 will handle an
ASYM of up to 1290 ft. How does this compare in size to your sail.http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/fichiers/asymfxuk.pdf
I guess I am trying to get an idea if having a furler like this would allow
those of you with spinnakers to fly them a lot more often due to the ease of
setting them or are the opportunities just not that frequent How low can the
wind go and you can still sail at 5-6 knots with a spinnaker.Paul
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Rich:
The luff is free on this furler ( or at least 99% free – there is a furling
line attached to the center point on the luff) See the video at the bottom
of this page:http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/default.asp
As far as size goes, the model for our boat, the AFX 2500 will handle an
ASYM of up to 1290 ft. How does this compare in size to your sail.http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/fichiers/asymfxuk.pdf
I guess I am trying to get an idea if having a furler like this would allow
those of you with spinnakers to fly them a lot more often due to the ease of
setting them or are the opportunities just not that frequent How low can the
wind go and you can still sail at 5-6 knots with a spinnaker.Paul
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Paul
Its hard to tell if it would work on something like a 424. The boat in the
video is tiny in comparison. It also has a pole sticking out of the bow. I
also note that he has a foredeck man to launch the sail. I’m not sure you
gain anything. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be able to race with it if that
is ever in your future.I can vouch that the spinnaker sock works. Its pretty simple and not
expensive.I don’t have my sail dimensions available here. I think it was something
around 1200 sq ft, but I’m not sure. Check with your sailmaker.Rich
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