Tacking Angle

[Tor]

I’m curious to know what other P424’s manage for a tacking angle,
i.e., the angle between the port and starboard tacks when beating
to windward in moderate conditions under full sail, including an
typical (120%-135%) genoa, excluding leeway. To put it another
way, how high does your boat point to the TRUE wind, again in
moderate conditions under all working sail and excluding leeway.

Thanks,

Tor
———————-
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
——————

[RichCarter]

I can make a 90 degree tack over the bottom, meaning that if I see a mark directly abeam of my boat under normal conditions I can make it. Normal conditions to me are light wind, about 5..8kts true. If the wind picks up a bit, enough to get the boat to heel, say 15kts true, I can do better, perhaps 85 degrees. The tack angle I see on my apparent wind indicator is about 35 degrees. She crabs about 10 degrees in light air and about 7 degrees in moderate air. I don’t know exactly what she will do in heavy air. I’ve always been a bit too busy to measure it.

I lose about a boat length with each tack, so if the mark is close I must pass the lay-line by about 42 feet. The boat loses headway when tacking and takes a while to come back up to speed. This loss is due to crabbing when she is stalled. I race the boat so I pay very careful attention to performance.

I have a sloop and fly a 150% genoa. I don’t know what I’d see with a smaller sail. My guess is that I’d need a bit more wind, but the tack angle should be the same. The sails are relatively new and I have a backstay tensioner.

Rich

—– Original Message —–

[john stevenson]

Tor,

When my sails were new I could tack within a 150 deg window, maybe 140 deg in a flat sea and a steady breeze.  That's with a 135 laminate genoa and a fully battened main.  However, I normally used Rich's criteria for initiating a tack – go for a 90 deg tack and then ease the sheets if I could point higher.

That said, I'm trying to think of the last time I tacked to windward and wasn't motorsailing.  Don't think that's happened in the last 10 years.  Now tacking downwind ….

Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah's Blog

[theller85]

Speaking. Of motor sailing… Here's an amateur question.

How does one account for fuel consumption and speed when motor sailing with, say, 10knts of wind. What would the boat normally achieve under sail, what kind of fuel consumption could one expect to reach hull speed.

Alternatively, if one had 20 knots of wind, could one exceed hull speed for a low fuel burn? Say an extra 2knots makes a big difference in a long passage..

Tom

[Tor]

Looks like my original email that opened this thread got posted here, but my subsequent answer to Rich & John did not. Here is what I wrote in that vanished email:

Rich, I expected you’d do better than most, recalling some comments from you about this in the past. Your sloop rig, big jenny, typically light airs and inherently attentive handling of your boat, your “racer’s instincts,” surely all contribute. If you’re managing 45-degrees either side of the true wind, then I suspect that’s about as good as these boats will do. Also, if you’re making 7 to 10-degrees leeway (I assume that’s what you mean by “crabbing”), then by my personal definition you’re pinching to achieve the 90-degree tack, so maybe it’s not as efficient as falling off a tad and crabbing less? What’s that called, CMG? And as you say, perhaps it would be different in 12-15 knots offshore. Anyway, your achievement is my personal ideal for these boats.

John, if I understand your statement, you’re generally pointing 70 to 75-degrees either side of the wind, 140 to 150-degrees tack to tack. Big difference from what Rich is getting. (Sarah is a ketch, right?) That’s quite a difference, but not so surprising considering the differences in rigs and usage between you guys and your boats. Looking forward to hearing what others are getting from their 424’s to windward.

Thanks,

Tor
———————-
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
——————

[Tor]

Rich, I expected you’d do better than most, recalling some comments from you about this in the past. Your sloop rig, big jenny, typically light airs and inherently attentive handling of your boat, your “racer’s instincts,” surely all contribute. If you’re managing 45-degrees either side of the true wind, then I suspect that’s about as good as these boats will do. Also, if you’re making 7 to 10-degrees leeway (I assume that’s what you mean by “crabbing”), then by my personal definition you’re pinching to achieve the 90-degree tack, so maybe it’s not as efficient as falling off a tad and crabbing less? What’s that called, CMG? And as you say, perhaps it would be different in 12-15 knots offshore. Anyway, your achievement is my personal ideal for these boats.

 

John, if I understand your statement, you’re generally pointing 70 to 75-degrees either side of the wind, 140 to 150-degrees tack to tack. Big difference from what Rich is getting. (Sarah is a ketch, right?) That’s quite a difference, but not so surprising considering the differences in rigs and usage between you guys and your boats. Looking forward to hearing what others are getting from their 424’s to windward.

 

Thanks,

 

Tor

———————-

Silverheels, P-424 #17

http://www.silverheels.us

——————

 

 

 

 

[guy11976]

Thalassa, 1981, $24is a reaching boat which under heavy weather moves at hull speed without much heeling. In light winds steerage is extremely difficult, challenging even to people who grew up on sailboats, 55 to 60 degrees of wind.

With a moderate wind 45 degrees would be excellent, only closer in heavier wind luffing up. If you wanted to go to windward you should not be on a 424.

Guy

 

[Tor]

Gee, now you tell me.

So, Guy, what tacking angle does your 424 manage? Or do you only reach?

[Tor]

Oh, happy day! It appears one of my emails (the one that starts out to Rich) did eventually arrive and get posted. Maybe my next one, presently in the pipeline, will too. Ewan, did you work some magic here?

[Windward Star]

I’m be curious to hear from someone with a cutter rig, the mast is located a couple feet back from the sloop rig.
Newer owner without a functional mainsail right now

[Tor]

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Tom,

 

Theoretical hull speed for a Pearson 424 is about 7.8 knots, i.e., 1.34 X (sq. root of) 33.75′. In reality 424’s often move faster through the water because the waterline lengthens as the boat squats and/or heels underway. It’s probably more like 8.3 knots in practice. In any case, hull speed it the rare treat, not the norm. Most of the time you’d have to crank up your engine RPM way too high to achieve it, so your fuel consumption would be very high, indeed. Better if you don’t plan on making hull speed and forget about an extra 2 knots. You bought a sailboat. Leave the engine off, kick back and enjoy it.

 

Your question, as it is posed, defies a definitive answer because there are too many variables, beginning with what engine and prop the boat has, what the wind and sea conditions are, how clean the bottom is (or isn’t), how high you’re trying to point, and what’s the big rush anyway. The “whatever” answer, though, is 0.6 GPH to motorsail on average IF you’re habitually gentle on the throttle, 1 GPH if you’re not, and 1.5 to 2 GPH to cruise at hull speed. However, none of this applies to a 20-knot wind. You normally wouldn’t use an engine in 20 knots unless you’re angrily forcing the boat hard to windward, and if you do that beating into 20 knots on an offshore passage in a Pearson 424, sooner or later you’ll break something in the boat. Like the forepeak tabbing, or the book shelves, or the bulkheads.

 

Tor

———————-

Silverheels, P-424 #17

http://www.silverheels.us

——————

 

 

 

[Ken Page]

Tor, on my passage from George Town Bahama's to the VI  sailing every moment as high as we could and after all the diesel was gone and most of the wind and we were forced to sail, fighting day and night just to make 100 miles, I felt the boat moved better at 50 degrees than 45. My young nephew who's patience  was very thin, fought and fussed at 45 but the log showed no difference in the long run watch to watch. I relaxed he stressed. I have the tall sloop rig and we thought the boat did better with the 135 reefed a little, maybe 120 to 125 and a full main. Winds were anywhere from 6 to 12 knots for four days. We fought hard for miles every waking moment.

Ken

Taking what comes as I get it, using it all as much as I can and trying hard to leave all the shit behind.

[RichCarter]

Regarding the fuel consumption question, I can’t really tell what my fuel consumption is. I don’t keep the engine at a constant setting for a full tank full of fuel and I do a bit of idling at anchor to run the refrigeration. I therefore have no way to measure consumption. As long as I can find a place to fill-up, it’s not an issue. I would guess that we burn about a gallon/hr at moderate speed. Pulling the throttle up to press the boat past her comfort zone will start sucking down the fuel. My guess is that 6.7 kts would be where consumption starts going up. This is where she is most comfortable. My previous engine, a W60, was comfortable up to about 6kts so your mileage may vary. I usually cruise a little bit faster but I don’t normally push it past 7 kts. Fuel consumption goes up dramatically and so does the noise. She will do 7.8 kts under power at full throttle. The engine specs say that she burns 4.5 gal/hr at full load at this speed however. I run the engine at full throttle for about 20 minutes about once each month to burn off carbon deposits as directed by the owner’s manual. Otherwise I see no benefit to burning that much fuel to go less than a knot faster. If I had to conserve fuel, I’d probably run at about 5kts where I bet she burns about 1/2 gal/hr.

My previous boat liked to surf. Downwind, we could keep the 30-footer on the face of a wave for what seemed like minutes. The 424 doesn’t surf however. Still, under the right conditions she will do 8.3 kts. That’s rare however.

I think I’ve done about all that can be done with the 424 to improve sailing performance, short of gutting the interior and emptying her out. We have short races on Thursday evenings, about an hour or so in duration. The difference between the first few finishers on corrected time is typically a couple of minutes in total. Footing off a bit more would let the boat pick up speed but VMG would be less. When I tack over, the boat I passed is now to windward of me. Of course, if I pinch-up a bit I can sail a shorter course but unless there is a breeze, the 424 won’t effectively point higher.

A few seconds here or there at the start or anywhere on the course is the difference between 1st and 3rd. This gives you a chance to really compare a minor trim adjustment or coarse heading with the other boats. Our courses are always directly upwind/downwind, sometimes twice-around. This doesn’t favor the 424. Upwind is a challenge. I can point as high as most boats but I need to protect my lee. Some boats like the J24 can point higher. If someone who can point higher gets in my lee he can push me up and force me to tack over or stall. Most boats tack over and zip off on the opposite tack. The lumbering 424 takes a couple of minutes to build up a head of steam and crabs to lee until she gets going. I try to run the rhumb-line tacking only twice on the upwind leg.

I always start on starboard tack, sailing until I think I can tack-over to make about 5 or 6 boat lengths from the mark when I tack again. I always round marks on starboard too. Otherwise I have to yield and as I said, the 424 doesn’t tack quickly. If I screw up or get forced over anywhere on the course, I have to take two additional tacks to regain position, each of which cost about a minute or more on my final time. Two extra tacks and I get 3rd or 4th place instead of 1st. Another two and I’m trying to stay out of last place.

Downwind is a bit easier with the 424. Here there is no penalty for gybing as there is with tacking and therefore no lee to protect. Once we round the windward mark we can make up time we may have lost to boats that can outpoint us. I fly a cruising spinnaker and have a good deck crew to handle the sail. I find that we do very well running directly downwind with it. Everyone else zig-zags down the course trying to keep their boat speed up. Directly downwind is best for us. This heading requires careful attention by the trimmer or the sail will collapse. We could sail a bit faster by heading up in either direction but we end up sailing a longer course. We can fly the spinnaker wind-and-wing with the wind more than about 160 degrees apparent. We can broad reach from about 80 to about 120 degrees, so there is a heading of between 120 and 160 degrees where the sail doesn’t work. This sounds like a lot, but the apparent angle rapidly moves forward when you reach up in either direction.

Rich

[Tor]

Thanks, Ken. That’s good feedback. Your taller sloop rig should, at least in theory, point a little better than a cutter, and a cutter better than a ketch, but of course there are so many other variables that it’s not necessarily a given. Sounds to me like you got all your boat had to give and did very well on that passage, for a P424 in those conditions.

 

I find that Silverheels, with her fairly new, fully battened sails and tuned rigging, tacks in 110 to 120 degrees, plus a good 5-degrees leeway either side, in moderate offshore conditions, i.e., 12-15 knots of wind and commensurately modest seas. If I need to point higher, then I consider her a motorsailer to windward. Running my 54HP Yanmar & fixed 3-blade prop at 1400 RPM gets the boat to point high and keep moving and burns just 0.6 GPH of diesel. In flat, protected conditions (which I seem to recall having once, back in 2011, or was it 2012?) I believe I can squeeze a tack into 100-degrees and still be sailing. Maybe.

 

So, from what I’m seeing in this thread, I’m pointing all right for the boat I have. I was just curious to see whether others were pointing higher. I’ve always thought a 90-degree tacking angle was “normal” or “average” for a “cruising sailboat, but I’ve also always known that everything on a boat is a trade-off. I’ve got a handsome liveaboard cruising sailboat with an easy rig to single-hand, roomy with comfortable accommodations, decent maneuverability, seaworthy, relatively stiff and seakindly, fast enough off the wind… Lots here to appreciate.

 

Tor

———————-

Silverheels, P-424 #17

http://www.silverheels.us

——————

 

 

 

 

[Tor]

Wow, Rich, that’s another world. I am constantly amazed at how much I don’t know about sailing.

 

Tor

 

 

[guy11976]

I prefer reaching,  as rarely can I fetch 45 to 50 degrees. I prefer reaching with jib and mizzen, all easily managed from cockpit while anchoring or docking. I once came into my dock under sail back winding the mizzen and effectively stopping the boat. My engine was not working after falling and pt Judith yard missed that diesel oil supply was disconnected. > have a bow thruster which makes docking and getting into tight places.

guy THALASSA 

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

——– Original message ——–

[serendipity 81]

Getting back to and holding 45 is the object not easily obtained in anything short of a strong breeze. Anxious to see if my new full batten main complements  the 110  in front of it.

Chad
SERENDIPITY

[Tor]

Guy, I suspect it would be hard to find a sailor who doesn’t prefer reaching. Perhaps if you just day-sail with lots of alternate destinations available to choose from, or else sail around in open ocean with no particular destination, then you can reach all the time. What fun! My karma seems to be headwinds about 80% of the time – I’d swear they actually shift to blow from wherever I’m trying to go – except when I’m running down the trade winds, which is about the most fun thing in the world. I long ago accepted that my 424 is a motorsailer hard on the wind if I really need to get someplace.

 

Nice to encounter a sailor who knows something about using a mizzen sail. Few do. There’s a summary of mizzen techniques at http://www.tor.cc/articles/mizzen.htm . I should add your “docking brake” bit to it. Many years (yikes, decades!) ago I had a classic, engineless gaff-rigged ketch. I lived at anchor and only docked her rarely, but was told the former owner used to regularly back her into her slip using the mizzen sail to guide her in.

 

Tor

 

 

 

 

 

[RichCarter]

It’s taken me years to get my boat to point and ten boat units to my sailmaker to get her competitive on the race course.

 

Just to put things in perspective, the sloop and tall ketch have the exact same mainmast rig dimensions.  The main and foresail dimensions are identical.  My sloop has the reinforced step in the cockpit and tabbing glassed to the hull for mizzen chain plates.  For whatever reason, the first owner elected to skip the mizzen option.  The cutter has the exact same mast but has it positioned a couple of feet farther aft.  The cutter therefore has a bit larger sailing plan but a slightly lower aspect ratio.  With good sails and if there were some way to tension the backstay with the ketch, I think she should point about as well as I do.  The same goes for the cutter.  If I had it to do over again, I think I’d opt for the cutter.  If you have a sloop or cutter, reinforce the transom chainplate.  Pearson’s solution is inadequate and IMHO dangerous.

 

Rich

[Ken Page]

Rich,

  I'm not really clear on the sloop, cutter and tall ketch actual measurements but the books and all paperwork aboard this sloop, cutter, I'm not really sure, were WRONG. The book says, 48' 9″ above DWL (designed water line) and the PO made a sketch that showed the mast length from top of grease cap (in mast furling) to the mast step at 50'. After crashing into a bridge I found my masthead (no lights grease cap or antenna included) to be 51' to the water. My safe passage is 53' 6″. 

Ken.

Taking what comes as I get it, using it all as much as I can and trying hard to leave all the shit behind.

[RichCarter]

Ken
I don’t think you have a standard mast. It is quite possible that a PO retrofitted the in-mast furler.

The ketch came in two heights, normal and tall. You appear to have the taller rig. You can view the sail dimensions for the various options at the link below.

http://baconsails.com/bacon/select_sailboat.php

Rich

—– Original Message —–

[Author]

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