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This winters haul out projects focus on my thru-hulls. I've got some that don't close well (Popeye would have a rough time), some that leak and some that are down right scary. Additionally they are mostly of different makes. A few I think will clean up with the bead blaster but some have a really thick coat of patina on them that makes me wonder if some of the bronze components have leached from the fitting possibly compromising the integrity of the metal.
The main one I really wonder about it the old Perko 1.5 inch galley drain. It is a rich velvety green but doesn't leak. The design is from the age of steam but is still serviceable. The limited amount of space under there doesn't lend itself to spinning it lose from the thru- hull mushroom. I don't want to pull it unless it really should be replaced. I may be able to clean it up where it is.What is the consensus on a green thru-hull? Shot?
The galley drain hose could possibly have been the original from 1979. My finger would nearly penetrate it at one of the bends. I was rewarded with a varied selection of knuckle cuts and scrapes during the removal of that hose and see why it was possibly never replaced.
I'm not considering any type of sea chest or modification to the intake/drainage arrangement.
Chuck
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Chuck
I don’t think the patina is a problem. That’s what’s supposed to happen and how copper alloys protect themselves.You can grease most seacocks by removing a plug on the side of the valve and temporarily replacing it with a grease fitting. Then pump some grease in there and work the valve a few times.
The hoses on our boats have been discussed in earlier threads. Briefly, you should replace them all every decade or so. Access to the hose and thru-hull under the galley sink is easier if you cut an access hatch under the sink. Its otherwise almost impossible to reach.
Watch out for brass fittings below the water line. Bronze is more appropriate, but Pearson may have used brass for pipe nipples.
If your engine intake fitting has an elbow in it, get rid of the elbow. Stuff gets stuck in there.
Rich
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Chuck,
It sounds like you’d better bight the bullet and pull all your seacocks for inspection, and either servicing or replacing. I’d replace the hoses and (double) hose clamps then, too. I did that on my first big haul-out and have slept better ever since. At that time I cut an access hatch in the floorboard beneath the galley sink, directly above the sink drain thru-hull. This makes servicing that seacock and the drain hose much, much easier.
I can’t tell you whether or not your galley sink drain seacock is all right, but the green patina does not necessarily mean it isn’t. I’d pull it, clean it up and see whether there is noticeable color deterioration (as in pinkish-red spots or areas) in contrast to the healthy gold color of the polished bronze. I believe such discoloration indicates structural deterioration.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Regarding greasing seacocks, when I pulled and service all mine soon after buying the boat, I spoke to some tech guy at Groco about the right grease to use on the hard rubber cylinders inside their 1-1/2″ seacocks. I’d heard that petroleum-based lubricants will deteriorate the rubber. The tech guy concurred and recommended “Dow Corning Compound 111 Valve Lubricant & Sealant.” It took some searching to find the stuff – no one seemed to sell it. I think I finally called Dow Corning and asked who might retail it. I’m afraid I don’t remember now where I finally got it, but it was some kind of repair shop where the office manager kindly agreed to sell me a tube and mail it to me.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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FWIW, every season before launch I have all of the seacocks serviced and greased after a NE winter on the hard. This is also a much better way of discovering failure, than a t sea a week after launch. I keep my boat on a mooring. I close all the seacocks Sunday night and open them again Friday afternoon. Ease of operation is to me thus very important. Best to all.
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FWIW,
I have only one seacock on Sarah, the one for the deck scupper under the aft cabin berth. All the other valves are ball-valves. The valves I've had installed are all Groco SS ball valves. I'm not sure about the other ball valves. The seacock is nice in that it can be taken apart during haulouts, but I've never had one of the ball valves freeze up. They get a little stiff, but gentle persuasion as always loosened them up.
What I don't know is why I have different type of valves from when I purchased the boat. No history from the PO about replacing valves so I guess Pearson just used whatever they had in inventory at the time.Good idea about cutting an access hole under the sink. I only had to work on the sink drain valve once and it was a bitch. I think there will be an access hole under there before next fall, when I also copy Bob Fine's cabin sole hatch in the galley.
John
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Thatcher Stone < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:FWIW, every season before launch I have all of the seacocks serviced and greased after a NE winter on the hard. This is also a much better way of discovering failure, than a t sea a week after launch. I keep my boat on a mooring. I close all the seacocks Sunday night and open them again Friday afternoon. Ease of operation is to me thus very important. Best to all.<.. snip>
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The PO on my boat made a nice opening under the sink for the two valves – the drain and the seawater intake for the head. Unfortunately, opposite under the starboard side in an area that is virtually unreachable is the head through hull. I can't get there to operate it fully because my arms aren't that long. What have any of you done with that valve?
Bob
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:03 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:FWIW,
I have only one seacock on Sarah, the one for the deck scupper under the aft cabin berth. All the other valves are ball-valves. The valves I've had installed are all Groco SS ball valves. I'm not sure about the other ball valves. The seacock is nice in that it can be taken apart during haulouts, but I've never had one of the ball valves freeze up. They get a little stiff, but gentle persuasion as always loosened them up.
What I don't know is why I have different type of valves from when I purchased the boat. No history from the PO about replacing valves so I guess Pearson just used whatever they had in inventory at the time.Good idea about cutting an access hole under the sink. I only had to work on the sink drain valve once and it was a bitch. I think there will be an access hole under there before next fall, when I also copy Bob Fine's cabin sole hatch in the galley.
John
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Thatcher Stone < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:FWIW, every season before launch I have all of the seacocks serviced and greased after a NE winter on the hard. This is also a much better way of discovering failure, than a t sea a week after launch. I keep my boat on a mooring. I close all the seacocks Sunday night and open them again Friday afternoon. Ease of operation is to me thus very important. Best to all.<.. snip>
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Bob,
I'm not much help – I sealed my head outtake. Before that I reposition the thru-hull when I combined the engine and generator intakes. Again not much help with your question. I'm sure I have longer arms than you, but before I moved the thru-hull it was still a bitch. Sounds like you need to get your boatwright friend back to work with a hatch at the base of the companionway ladder (assuming that's where you thru-hull is located).John
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:The PO on my boat made a nice opening under the sink for the two valves – the drain and the seawater intake for the head. Unfortunately, opposite under the starboard side in an area that is virtually unreachable is the head through hull. I can't get there to operate it fully because my arms aren't that long. What have any of you done with that valve?Bob
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:03 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:FWIW,
I have only one seacock on Sarah, the one for the deck scupper under the aft cabin berth. All the other valves are ball-valves. The valves I've had installed are all Groco SS ball valves. I'm not sure about the other ball valves. The seacock is nice in that it can be taken apart during haulouts, but I've never had one of the ball valves freeze up. They get a little stiff, but gentle persuasion as always loosened them up.
What I don't know is why I have different type of valves from when I purchased the boat. No history from the PO about replacing valves so I guess Pearson just used whatever they had in inventory at the time.Good idea about cutting an access hole under the sink. I only had to work on the sink drain valve once and it was a bitch. I think there will be an access hole under there before next fall, when I also copy Bob Fine's cabin sole hatch in the galley.
John
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Thatcher Stone < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:FWIW, every season before launch I have all of the seacocks serviced and greased after a NE winter on the hard. This is also a much better way of discovering failure, than a t sea a week after launch. I keep my boat on a mooring. I close all the seacocks Sunday night and open them again Friday afternoon. Ease of operation is to me thus very important. Best to all.<.. snip>
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I have precisely the same issue. I’ve never been able to adequately reach the head seacock. The last time I replaced the head hose, I cursed and swore about the guy who came up with that design. This has me thinking. The head is on a short platform that is fastened to the cabin sole in the head. It wold be straightforward to cut an access hole under the platform to reach the through-hull for service. I’d have to remove the head, but that’s probably part of whatever project requires that kind of access to the valve.
I have another through-hull under the aft bunk for my refrigeration cooling water. Whoever installed that one put it right against the bulkhead so the valve can’t be closed.
The engine cooling water intake seacock used to hit against the strainer before it could be completely closed. This was fixed by replacing the strainer and getting rid of the damn elbow.
Rich
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Hi Rich,
When in a no-discharge zone you need to have the valve closed and locked. This is in addition to the Y-valve. That means it should get operated several times a year when coming in and out of the Long Island Sound. I may have to get it moved when I haul this year. Sometimes I wonder who thinks or doesn't think about these things..
Bob
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:57 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I have precisely the same issue. I've never been able to adequately reach the head seacock. The last time I replaced the head hose, I cursed and swore about the guy who came up with that design. This has me thinking. The head is on a short platform that is fastened to the cabin sole in the head. It wold be straightforward to cut an access hole under the platform to reach the through-hull for service. I'd have to remove the head, but that's probably part of whatever project requires that kind of access to the valve.I have another through-hull under the aft bunk for my refrigeration cooling water. Whoever installed that one put it right against the bulkhead so the valve can't be closed.
The engine cooling water intake seacock used to hit against the strainer before it could be completely closed. This was fixed by replacing the strainer and getting rid of the damn elbow.
Rich
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We probably had all original Perko seacocks. We cut them all out using a Moto tool and fiberglass cutting wheels. Perko wanted the price of new Jabscos for just the plastic inside parts. I say replace them all, and the hoses. We also upsized the cockpit drain seacocks to 2″.
Life is short, and the Gulfstream is too wide to swim.
Quent -
I'm pretty sure I don't have the same things here on Pelican. There is the through hull and a 1 1/2″ bronze ball valve with SS balls. I don't like the arrangement much, but they seem newer than Pelican ('78).
The cockpit has 2 – 1-1/2″ outlets added to the aft wall just off the bottom that exit the transom with no valves. I'm not sure I like that, either.
Bob
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 6:26 PM, quent < ([email][/email])> wrote:
We probably had all original Perko seacocks. We cut them all out using a Moto tool and fiberglass cutting wheels. Perko wanted the price of new Jabscos for just the plastic inside parts. I say replace them all, and the hoses. We also upsized the cockpit drain seacocks to 2″.
Life is short, and the Gulfstream is too wide to swim.
Quent—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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While we’re talking about access to through hulls, the one that scares me to death is the one just aft of the captain’s berth. It is for the cockpit drain on the port side. I am going to install a hatch at the foot of the bed. I plan to eventually lengthen the berth but the compressor for my refrigeration is mounted just aft of the bulkhead. The compressor is 30 years old I’m sure it will need to be serviced and I can move it a little further aft. When I do this I can make the bottom of the extension lift out for access to the valve.
My paranoia and long legs just seem to work together
Linus
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Hi Linus,
I am not happy with any of the deck drains. There is absolutely no reason for them to drain below the waterline except for looks. The spring when I haul Pelican I am going to either replace them with freeing ports (or really, have the yard do that) or change them so they elbow directly out to the hull. True, there may be dark streaks on the hull, but frankly, dark streaks are better than looking up at the surface of the water.
It's bad enough there are so many through hulls, these 4 don't help matters. If I could figure out a way to get rid of the cockpit ones, I would.
But maybe I worry too much.
Bob
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Bob,
Soon after I bought my boat, I sealed up a bunch of her underwater thru-hulls and relocated some of those seacocks to above-waterline discharges. I think my cockpit drains were already above the waterline, though.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
The problem with the cockpit drains are that even if they drain above the waterline they need seacocks because they can be underwater when the boat is sailed to it's normal limits – that's the criteria for whether or not you need sea cocks. Clearly, if they are under water and the hose fails when sailing at a 20 degree heel angle you are about to visit a very wet and nasty place.
So they need them. But if you take the deck drains and right-angle them right to the hull which puts them just below the cove stripe then they are way above water even in the extreme event you are sailing at a 45 degree angle. Just so you know, it is possible but not for long. The 424 has an incredible righting moment at 45 degrees. I suspect it's why it's such a drama-less boat (which is good).
Even in a gale I haven't gotten the caprails under water and I tried.
The only two disadvantages I see is that there will be streaks in the hull (not so bad) and that collecting water for the tanks will be harder, but I've already thought of a solution involving nylon funnels mounted between the lifelines and the coach roof. We'll see how that goes.
Bob
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,Soon after I bought my boat, I sealed up a bunch of her underwater thru-hulls and relocated some of those seacocks to above-waterline discharges. I think my cockpit drains were already above the waterline, though.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hey Bob,
Sure, you’re right about the above-waterline thru-hulls being submerged sometimes. Still, I believe most boats (including ours) are built without seacocks on above-waterline thru-hull fittings. Seems to me if you start out with new hoses & clamps and inspect/replace them periodically, the chances of one opening up while sailing are slim. In half a century messing around with boats I’ve never heard of it happening. That’s not to say it can’t happen, but if it does it’s easily remedied, beginning with changing tacks or heaving-to. Next you have to remember where you stowed those big wood bungs!
This is only my take on it. What matters on your boat, of course, is your take. If you’ll enjoy the cruise more knowing all waterline thru-hulls have seacocks, then you should definitely install them. I might even do it myself some day, just on the principle that safer is usually better.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
I've never had it happen either in 30+ years either. I've had leaks and so forth but none like that. The requirements for above the waterline seacocks aren't mine – they're ABYC and USCG for inspected vessels – not all of them need it, though. Just the ones that can be under water during the extreme limits of operation. Because the cockpit sole is so close to the waterline there's no way to have the drains high enough. That's all I'm saying.
You are correct about the tacking and all that. The problem is that in extreme circumstances you'd not know until water was sloshing about the cabin sole, I think.
It could very well be that I am overly concerned with sinking. I mean, I've seen thousands of boats and only a couple sank. That's pretty good odds. Even the worst leakers I've heard of have traveled the U.S. coast more or less successfully but the stories the crew tells are not something I'd like to personally experience. That said, of course, life is what happens while you're making other plans so I could have the safest vessel in the world and still experience a whale, submarine, or container strike that makes me really appreciate the life raft.
And in the end, you are also right – it's whatever makes us feel comfortable. I would never hesitate to sail with you even knowing your cockpit drains are seacockless… 🙂
Bob
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hey Bob,Sure, you're right about the above-waterline thru-hulls being submerged sometimes. Still, I believe most boats (including ours) are built without seacocks on above-waterline thru-hull fittings. Seems to me if you start out with new hoses & clamps and inspect/replace them periodically, the chances of one opening up while sailing are slim. In half a century messing around with boats I've never heard of it happening. That's not to say it can't happen, but if it does it's easily remedied, beginning with changing tacks or heaving-to. Next you have to remember where you stowed those big wood bungs!
This is only my take on it. What matters on your boat, of course, is your take. If you'll enjoy the cruise more knowing all waterline thru-hulls have seacocks, then you should definitely install them. I might even do it myself some day, just on the principle that safer is usually better.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Aw, shucks.
As to water sloshing over the cabin sole, I’ve installed (1) a bilge alarm, which beeps in the nav station and lights up LED lights there and in the cockpit so I know when the pump is cycling on, and (2) a high water alarm via a float switch about 14″ above the deep sump bottom, which sounds a car horn that’ll wake up everyone within 100 yards (plus its own set of LED lights, nav station & cockpit). If Silver Heels springs a leak, I’ll know about it well before it gets anywhere near the floorboards.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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That seems like a better idea, actually. I just have the little lights that go on with the pump. Hmmm, maybe I should put the Radio Shack Annoy-the-crap-out-of-everyone alarm in. Good idea! Thanks! ( for the 'high level' switch, that is)
Bob
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Aw, shucks.As to water sloshing over the cabin sole, I've installed (1) a bilge alarm, which beeps in the nav station and lights up LED lights there and in the cockpit so I know when the pump is cycling on, and (2) a high water alarm via a float switch about 14″ above the deep sump bottom, which sounds a car horn that'll wake up everyone within 100 yards (plus its own set of LED lights, nav station & cockpit). If Silver Heels springs a leak, I'll know about it well before it gets anywhere near the floorboards.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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