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Aloha to All
i am posting this question to try and see if anyone may knows what course of action i should take with my first big problem.
today while backing into my slip i was shifting between forward and reverse and head a “clunk” it shut down the engine and i was dead in the water. We managed to drift into the slip. I checked to see if i fouled the prop – no. I checked the shifing lever and it moves between forward and neutral. i Checked to v-drive uint and it appears to spin freely.
symptoms:
I can start the engine and the prop appears to be turning in forward.
I can shift to nutral – no difference prop still turns in forward.
i can shift to forward and in an out of neutral with no difference – prop still
turns in frowardi shift to reverse and everything locks up and the engine shut down – immediatelyl – so the shifting linkage is moving the shift lerel in an out of gear, and moves freely between forward and reverse (engine off) but when shifted to reverse it locks up ( when the engine is running). I do not hear any grinding, chatter etc in the process of moving it between gears, just stops dead in the reverse.
We have hull #217 1983 pearson cutter with a w58 w/walter v drive and i think the gear is a model 15 1.6 to 1? I checked the oil in the gear and it was clear & clean, does not smell burned so i am assmuning it did not get hot. was shifting and working prpoerly all day till we got to the slip so it must have happened in the process of shifting between gears backing
up? and then muffled bang! dead in the water.any suggestions/Help would be greatly apprecaited…
James Island Muse – Honolulu Hawaii
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You probably have a model 71c Warner hydraulic transmission. A hydraulc trans only engages when the engine is running and engages the internal pump. Something is siezed in your transmission. Suggest you call or e-mail these folks who have helped me in the pasthttp://www.marinegears.com/techchat/
Sometimes the vibration damper breaks and jambs, but that would probably affect forward and reverse.
The Warner is basically a stripped down version of a Chevy Powerglide. Most transmission shops work on them and it is widely available as a rebuilt. Get some diagnostic advice before you pull it out.
Quent -
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James,
If you have a shaft brake, you’ll want to look at it.
The shaft brake I am familiar with on the W58 in the 424s is spring applied and transmission fluid pressure released. The brake mechanism mounts on the left side of the transmission ( boat stbd side). The caliper unit lifts up in response to trans fluid pressure, releasing the brake. The caliper drops down when trans fluid pressue is removed which applies the brake.
If the fluid pressure mechanism is not working properly and the brake shoes are dragging, the direction of rotation of the trans output shaft in reverse will tend to drve the caliper mechanism downward. This will apply the brake.
The brake is strong enough to stop the engine at least near idle speed.
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Aloha to All
i am still working on my delima – that is i have some good news and bad, As it turns out i have a 1997 or 1998 westerbeke (hour reading at 474 hrs in 2002 according to the survey?) with a borg warner 1:1 ratio gear and a walter rv20 v drive. some of the notes say 1997 perkins 4-154??? are they the same motors?
i have serial no’s on both the engine and gear so i am assuming that i can find the exact models.
anyone know of a spare borg warner gear around, not many out here in hawaii?
Thanks for the reccommendations-
james
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James
Replacement transmissions can be very costly, but these units are straightforward to rebuild. A good transmission shop should be able to rebuild your BW in a few days. Removal should be straightforward. You will likely need to remove the jack-shaft to the V-drive first. The bottom two fasteners on the transmission should be studs, not bolts. Leave the studs on the bell housing to assist in removal and replacement. The transmission is heavy, but a small block-and-tackle rigged up to a beam across the companionway should help. The unit will slide forward and out. I seem to remember fastening a couple of lifting rings on the housing in otherwise unused bolt holes to help attach a sling.Even if there’s nothing wrong with it, I suggest rebuiling it if it hasn’t been rebuilt in the last decade or so. A typical rebuild should run about $600, more so if the unit is badly damaged.
Regards
Rich
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James:
As Rich said, the rebuild should be fairly straight forward. If you are so inclined, complete rebuild kits are $150-$200.
http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page198.html
If you google “Velvet Drive 71C rebuild”, you will find lots of discussions of people doing this themselves. You would need access to a press at one point to insert the bearing ( I usually just bring the part to my local garage and give the mechanic a $10 bill to press it on for me in a couple minutes!!
The service manual gives a very complete description of the procedure.
I am curios if Chuck or anyone else on the list has done this themselves??
Also, as Rich mentioned, this should be child’s play for your local transmission shop.
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The next sound you hear will be a cash register. About two grand for an overhauled velvet drive from Walter.
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My Velvet Drive was working just fine when I did the engine rebuild, I elected not to mess with it.
The transmission uses pressure from its own pump (run by engine output rotation) to activate the clutch packs in one of two directions. When it moves it into reverse an idler gear is thrown into the mix to get a reverse turning motion. It sounds as if a component of that portion of the drive train could be binding up. I'd guess that if were part of the clutch pack that were binding it wouldn't turn at all as both spin when one or the other is engaged. I sort of doubt though that this is the case.
Since the engine has to be running to get the needed pressure to shift, this could be a tough one to troubleshoot. If there is something bound up in the case, you don't want to make it any worse by applying gross amounts of torque to it. Shutting an engine off by force could break a connecting rod, crank, timing chain…
More than likely it is an issue with the shaft brake. Do you have a shaft brake? It looks like a brake rotor between the transmission and the prop shaft. It is specifically designed to stop reverse rotation when the engine is not running. Pressure from Velvet Drives own pump keeps it disengaged when the engine is running. If not properly adjusted it could be grabbing when the output reverses. It is essentially a wedge and has more than enough force to stop the engine, although it could be torn off it's mount if anything more than an idle were taking place. I'd not want to see what that thing would do to the surrounding woodwork and hull if it got free.
If you are game, have somebody watch the transmission output when you put it into reverse, if it turns a quarter turn and at the same time the shaft brake caliper moves up towards 12 o'clock and the engine stops, I think you found your issue. You could use a tie wrap or small stuff to hold it out of position until you get it fixed. A pipe plug can be put into the V-Drive where the hose attaches if you take the entire thing off. I rebuilt my shaft brake and continue to use it even though I have a feathering prop. It's a great little device when properly maintained.If it is the transmission, it comes right out with the removal of a few bolts. Before you remove it, have a tech take a look at it. It could be a simple fix. A few more bolts and the entire engine can be removed 😉 These are great transmissions and most any yard has a tech that is intimate with its innards.
Jame's, I've got a maint/rebuild doc for the transmission if you need it.
On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Paul Lefebvre < ([email][/email])> wrote:James:
As Rich said, the rebuild should be fairly straight forward. If you are so inclined, complete rebuild kits are $150-$200.
http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page198.html
If you google “Velvet Drive 71C rebuild”, you will find lots of discussions of people doing this themselves. You would need access to a press at one point to insert the bearing ( I usually just bring the part to my local garage and give the mechanic a $10 bill to press it on for me in a couple minutes!!
The service manual gives a very complete description of the procedure.
I am curios if Chuck or anyone else on the list has done this themselves??
Also, as Rich mentioned, this should be child's play for your local transmission shop.
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Aloha to All
Thank you all for the advice, it looks like $1450.00 for a new re build is the best bang for the buck – shipped form seattle. I have made some calls around here but I do not really have much confidnce in the local guys here in hawaii doing the work. Still working on that one before i buy.
Still a little confused on the shaft break, i got th gear out fairly easy but have not seem anything looking like a brake.
the gear just attaches direct to the walter v- drive unitjames – island muse
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Good morning Jim-
As much as I hate suggesting more expense, since you have the trans out, take a good look at the vibration damper. If you look inside the bell housing, that is the disc shaped part into which the splined shaft from the trans connects. The springs in it should be firmly attached, not loose or missing.
Also check out the trans heat exchanger, maybe even replace it on principle. They aren’t too expensive, but failure will wreck your new trans.
Quent -
Good advice regarding the damper plate and heat exchanger. My damper plate was fine, but I sent my heat exchanger out to a local shop when I rebuilt my transmission five years ago. They charged me $140 to clean and repair the unit.
As I recall, I paid about $600 to rebuild my velvet drive. Shipping to/from New England would be expensive, but you might call them to compare.
http://www.idealtransmissions.com/
The shaft brake looks very similar to a disk brake on a car. It bolts on just behind the transmission. I’ve long since removed mine, no need for it since I have a folding prop.
Regards
Rich
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