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Yes, I think you’re probably right about that, Alan.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hey Bob,
Everything you say makes sense, as usual. (Far be it from me to argue, or even debate, with an engineer!) Anyway, there is no absolute right or wrong here.
By all accounts the Cape Horn seems to be the hands-down winner off the wind in light air. Even Hans is likely to give it that. It’s also a smart, esthetically pleasing machine with an excellent track record. It will allow me to use the davits that came with my boat, my mizzen boom won’t hit the vane, and I’ll spend a thousand bucks less buying it than I would for a new Monitor. Beyond that, I’ll have to get back to you in a year or two with some personal experiences to report. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of impressive testimonials at capehorn.com to encourage me.
This stuff is not real important. What is is that we might get to raft up in some really exotic place one of these days and raise a toast or two to… whatever comes to mind. When are you planning to set sail?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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John,
I agree with you that the Cape Horn web site is a little pushy about it’s comparison to the Monitor windvane. No doubt this is because Monitor is the proverbial elephant in the room, so heavily dominating the US windvane market, and because Cape Horn’s creator obviously feels (passionately!) that he has a better product. Still, I would not have taken that tack myself. In my opinion, they’re both excellent windvanes, each with some pro’s and con’s.
I would not blame Hans Berwall, whom I have known for 20 years, for being a little defensive about Cape Horns, either. He’s right that the Cape Horn installation is a bigger deal than external units like Monitor, but you’re also right that the installation is a one-time activity and not the primary consideration when choosing such an important piece of equipment.
As for the “lazarette… filled with the (Cape Horn) steering apparatus and all storage space… lost,” that will not be the case on our boats. I believe the windvane’s quadrant will perch immediately aft of my boat’s aft-facing rudder post steering quadrant (complete installation info at http://www.capehorn.com/sections/owners/Owner's_Manual_for_Web.htm#In). So I expect to lose a few inches of space along the central forward edge of the lazarette. Also, the connecting tube will run aft from there to the transom, passing through the lower middle of the locker. But our lazarettes are huge compared to most 42-footers. All the rest of the space – to port & starboard and above & below the tube – will still be available for general storage. While there will be some inevitable loss of space in there, I do like the fact that the steering gear is protected inside the boat rather than hanging out off the transom, vulnerable to whatever bangs up against it.
Are there trade-offs whichever way you go? Yep. The best we can do, with windvanes and most other boat gear, is list the good, the bad and the ugly and then decide what suits us best.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Pat,
I won’t know until later how much my new bimini/dodger actually effect a windvane when sailing hard on the wind. They may not. On my last boat it was not an issue. Anyway, I’m not worried about it because our Pearson 424’s (and most other decently designed sailboats) will self-steer to windward in most conditions with nothing more than reasonably good sail trim. On all other tacks, the cockpit canvas won’t interfere.
Maybe switching to a taller vane will be an answer, at least in light airs when the boat might not stay balanced to windward on her own. As you say, if the mizzen did come across it would only deflect the paddle for a few seconds. I tend to use windvane steering on long tacks anyway.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Chuck,
I have an aft-cockpit ketch, so that’s what I’m planning to accommodate. The Cape Horn’s vane is (or can be) short enough and/or low enough to allow the mizzen boom to pass over it. However, that raises another issue, which I’ll address in my next email.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Oh, to answer your question, Paul, since I have The Card myself, I don’t order through my yard except for
occasional small items that I want right away. Then it’s worth paying the little extra for the convenience of
next-day delivery.Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Paul,
Well, that makes sense. I don’t remember WM/PS asking me for all that stuff, but I originally signed up in the
’80’s, then again in 2000, and I was in fact working in the ‘marine industry’. (Still am, in case they’re
watching this group!)As for Defenders, when I started this 424 renovation I did a lot of price shopping. I think I ordered a few
things from Defenders, and a few from just about everyone else. No one outfit offered be best deal on every
item. Then I got a new idea. I listed all the stuff I knew I was about to purchase. It totaled about $10,000,
as I recall. I presented that to a particular WM/PS store manager and asked if he’d cut me a
better-than-Port-Supply deal if I ordered it all through him. The rest is history.🙂
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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How do you suppose West Marine determines who is “in the marine industry” and who isn’t?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Why not just join Port Supply? Everything is 20-40% cheaper. Or something like that.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Linus,
The Cape Horn is actually a thousand dollars less expensive than the Monitor: $3,795 (for a custom-built
Pearson 424 unit) vs. $4,790 ($4,295 base + $495 wheel steering adapter).Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Patrick,
To answer your own question, you’ll want to peruse Cape Horn’s web site, http://www.capehorn.com . It’s worth taking
your time there. You’ll learn a lot. A long-winded answer to your specific question is at
http://www.capehorn.com/sections/Comparaison/Anglais/ComparaisonAnglais.htm .I had a Monitor on my last boat and was satisfied with it. My personal reasons for considering a Cape Horn
windvane for my P424 ketch are:– Cape Horn can utilize a shorter wind paddle, allowing clearance beneath the mizzen boom.
– My boat came with davits, which I want to use when appropriate. According to my measurements the Cape Horn
will mount close enough to the transom to allow room for that. The Monitor would stick out too far, at least
on my boat.– The Cape Horn appears to be better adapted for steering by a low-draw tiller autopilot when motoring. The
low draw is not such an issue – you’re likely to be motoring when using the autopilot, anyway, especially with
a Cape Horn – but since my boat doesn’t yet have a heavy duty autopilot, being able to use a much less
expensive tiller pilot is likely to save me a few thousand dollars – even if I buy two tiller pilots to carry
a complete spare.– With the Cape Horn, I’ll avoid steering lines running across the cockpit.
– If their claims and multiple testimonials are to be believed, Cape Horn is the only windvane capable of
steering downwind in light air due to its superior design characteristics.– Incredibly, the Cape Horn is actually a thousand dollars less expensive than the Monitor: $3,795 (for a
custom-built Pearson 424 unit) vs. $4,790 ($4,295 base + $495 wheel steering adapter).– The Cape Horn design is so much more elegant, not a jungle gym on the boat’s transom.
I don’t think you’d regret getting a Monitor windvane, Patrick. I just believe the Cape Horn is a better
alternative.Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hey Bob,
Is your boat a ketch? Do you have davits?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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John,
I’m the one who brought up the notion of a group discount on Cape Horn windvanes. Didn’t get any response from
this group at that time so I assumed little or no interest. I’m discussing a vane for my ketch with Cape
Horn’s designer/builder, Yves Gélinas, and will probably order one in the not-too-distant future. I don’t
actually expect to use it until spring, but do want to leave myself ample time for the installation.Regarding a multi-order price break, Yves wrote on August 8th, “We are presently building some Cape Horn
Toucana gears for a group purchase that was originally organized by Westsail 32 owners. Some Bristol Channel
Cutter owners who use the same model, the same dimensions, heard about it and joined in. This is the second
group purchase by Westsail 32 owners. The original offer was for a 15% discount if there was 5 or more units,
20% if there was more than 10. After they had 15 potential customers, they asked if the discount could be
increased to 25% and I agreed. Now the group purchase has reached 22 orders (with $500 deposit each).”Bottom line is we’d need at least 5 of us to qualify.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Walter,
Photos attached, labeled to illustrate some of the main points. I put the framework together myself from
scrounged parts around the boat yard and from a nearby used boat gear store. Had to re-bend, cut and otherwise
modify the 1″ ss tubing to get what I needed out of it, but it saved me a bundle and I learned a lot. However,
I do not sew. My “canvas guy” lives on a sailboat down the pier and gave me a great deal on the work. Really,
he way under-bid this job. It turned out to be uncommonly complex. I lucked out in that regard. Figure I at
least owe him a lobster dinner gratuity.Access to the mizzen sail is excellent through the four opening panels. However, even though we put Sunbrella
rain deflector strips over the zippers they leak a little when it rains hard. Everything’s a trade-off, I
guess. I’m now having an in-port tent fly made, a simple trapezoid that will pass over the mizzen boom and
secure to the shrouds. This will rain-proof my bimini except when I’m actually sailing in the rain with the
mizzen hoisted. I can live with that. The fly will also enable me to leave the four large opening panels open
most of the time without letting in the brutal tropical sun, thus providing extra ventilation in the cockpit.
FYI, I’m also having a reversible Sunbrella rain-&-spray side panel made, which I can put up on the weather
side of the cockpit on long, wet passages. It’s a poor man’s version of a full enclosure, something I used and
appreciated on my last cruising boat.I have not been sailing with this new canvas yet, but I’m pretty happy with it at this point.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Jim,
I sure would like to see some photos of your set-up. That’s what I’d like to have on Silver Heels, too – eventually. Right now I’ve got too many other projects ahead of it, including doing some cruising before I forget how to sail. So I’ve settled for building a dodger hard top and doing the rest in Sunbrella & Strataglass this time around. A true hard dodger/bimini is on my Refit Phase II list, somewhere down the line.
You cutter owners have it easy designing a bimini. On an aft-cockpit ketch it’s a bit of a challenge. I finally came up with a way to have a full, semi-permanent bimini top and also have full access to my mizzen sail for furling, etc. Life is good.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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