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Hi John,
No, you do need a loop, at least as high above the tank as the distance from the vent to the edge of the tank (so it doesn't siphon when heeled). You can meet the criteria by laying the vent across the tank, looping it back to the other side of the tank and then to the bilge. Just so water can't flow out when heeled at the maximum angle.
As far as the fill line and vent being filled above the tank, it doesn't matter whether you have a 1-1/2″ tube or a 1/2″ tube. The first law of hydraulics is that pressure in one point of a system is identical in all points of the system. The pressure applied to the tank has nothing to do with the volume of water – just the height of it. It's non-intuitive, but true.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Bob
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 9:11 AM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Bob,
I assume you ran the vents directly to the bilge, with no loop to deck level. Sounds like a good idea. Even the original owners manual warned of over-filling the tanks and leaving water standing in the fill tube. I think the combined diameter of the fill (1.5″) and the vent (0.5″) tubes would produce more hydrostatic pressure than .5 lb/ft.
Thanks, for another project. While in the Bahamas there is no danger of me overfilling the tanks with $0.20/gallon water and watching it flow out through the bilge pump. I monitor the filling very closely to avoid that situation. Back in the states, with no additional charge for water at most marinas, I'm not always that careful.John
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
That's a great idea, although it may leave loops or sags in the line.
I extended(replaced) mine to lead back to the aft bilge, where filling
the tanks helps keep it clean and smelling fresh.There is some discussion about venting to areas that are exposed to
seawater. And then there is the issue of tank pressure-the highest
point of the vent provides about 1/2 lb/ft, which translates to
pressure throughout the tank. The tanks don't look to sturdy to me…Bob
On 3/31/09, Syringa < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I don't like the settee water tanks dumping over flow water into the fwd
bilge. I have been thinking about rerouting the vent lines into the upper
anchor locker and letting them drain there. Any other ideas?
Don Gardner
S/V Syringa #124/)+/)+~=:)
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Bob Fine
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Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
That’s a great idea, although it may leave loops or sags in the line.
I extended(replaced) mine to lead back to the aft bilge, where filling
the tanks helps keep it clean and smelling fresh.There is some discussion about venting to areas that are exposed to
seawater. And then there is the issue of tank pressure-the highest
point of the vent provides about 1/2 lb/ft, which translates to
pressure throughout the tank. The tanks don’t look to sturdy to me…Bob
On 3/31/09, Syringa <> wrote:
I don’t like the settee water tanks dumping over flow water into the fwd
bilge. I have been thinking about rerouting the vent lines into the upper
anchor locker and letting them drain there. Any other ideas?
Don Gardner
S/V Syringa #124/)+/)+~=:)
—
Sent from my mobile deviceBob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Hi Tor,
If the layup for the hull is anything like earlier boats, I can tell you at the rounding of the bilge at the top of the keel it's 1-1/4″ thick. It only gets thicker as you go down. It would take an extreme pounding to break that.
I love my deep bilge, although with the holding tank in it it doesn't hold as much as it used to, but still a pretty fair amount. As far as I'm concerned, it gets flushed everytime I fill the water tanks and it remains clean. I do like the idea of the garboard drain, except the part where it's underwater all the time and a point of failure. I know, they've been around for a bazillion years, but…
When at dry dock, I use a wet vac to clean up the bilge. Give it a coat of bilge paint and call it good.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Hi Alan,
Besides the two wood strips, nothing, really. Make sure you use a big backing plate or some hefty fender washers.
BOb
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I want to install my Radar display so that it can swing out into the companionway when needed. I will need to mount some kind of swing arm to the bulkhead that is in the Nav Station.
As anyone done this? What is behind the teak paneling?
alan—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Hi John,
Don't even get me going on Bomar and Lewmar. Lewmar does not supply parts for hatches over 10 years old (I know, I tried) that replace or repair their engineering stupidity. Bomar for some reason discontinued the gasket material for our aluminum portlights this year. Defender still has a piece lying around I think.
We could turn this whole discussion into one about manufacturing philosophies. But who's got time for that?
Bob
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Bob Fine
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“Given the Bahamas…”
Nope, that's not the case. The Bahamian government is VERY friendly to the inhabitants – they are given all sorts of special (to us) permissions, for instance, they can use diving equipment for gathering conch and lobster where visitors may only use snorkle equipment. They may use powered spear guns for fishing where visitors may only use sling type spears. The Bahamian government is looking out for the Bahamians (would that ours would do the same instead of just throwing great gobs of money they (we) don't have at things, but that's another rant. So is 'Homeland Security' which is too close to 'Night Watch' or 'Black Watch' for my comfort, frankly, but that too, is another rant. Don't worry, I have a million of them…but I digress).
So, that said, it probably is cheaper to use the Bahamian source and they make their regular mark up, just like, say, West Marine, here. Also, the Bahamians are not above the odd, umm, circumvention of normal import channels. For your info and possible help in these matters, they love Budweiser Beer, especially if it's cold. No one says they have taste.
That said, we should all purchase a second 424 to tow behind us for spare parts.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Rich,
I think you are being way too hard on Walter. You must understand that the installation of that drive in our boats is like nothing to them – they play with the big boys who put great gobs of power into these things. If you doubt the durability, check in with the C&C people who had crappy little v-drives and see what they have to say. To last 30 years is well beyond what most machinery lasts, and frankly longer than many engines last. Tell me, how many 30 year old abused cars or car transmissions do you have?
For a grand total of possibly 238 boat owners, I don't expect Walter to make changes. At this point, I'm surprised they even can rebuild these things, let alone sell us parts (except the case). They don't build new models thinking of our boats, nor should they. If their current model needs a different mounting then it's to be expected. It's 30 years on!
If it cost $650 to rebuild and $1200 new, I'd go for new. And if you don't think it's fair to change sizes or bolt patterns or whatever, remember, they improve their products over the decades. They have to because the market changes.
Also, if you don't think it needs cooling, it may very well not in our situation. But they're the manufacturer and it was designed for cooling and they'd be simpletons to say you don't need it. Then when some idiot runs 1000 horsepower through it for a couple of hours without cooling and it burns up, what do you think he's going to say? Yup, you guessed it: “Hey, you said it was alright for the Pearson group!”
Let's face it, there is relatively little you can change in a v-drive. It's a simple, well known, well engineered piece of kit and there is very little room for improvement. There is clearly nothing wrong with the drives – they perform to spec, they last decades in an hostile environment (let's have a vote – how many of us have even bothered to open the drive? How many of us check the temperature? How many of us change the oil once a year?). And yet, it performs. It's a good piece of machinery and it does its job. You may not be happy, but I'm not happy cars don't have a separate vent window, or about any other number of engineering changes over the last 30 years.
Bob
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:44 AM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I know, we do this to ourselves. We fail to innovate, building the same junk we made decades ago. Then some innovative foreign company cleans our clocks. Sounds like Detroit. Idiots! Its not like the customer base didn't tell them. I get a strong feeling that Walter will do nothing.Rich
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I hope it lasts – I've found that stuff from Chicago Electric is of inferior quality, but I can be rough on tools. Good luck. John, the PYI fasteners are not the same as the dzus. They anchor differently and are far stronger. They also have a different purpose – for taking two thin sheets of something and attaching them in a removable manner.
As I mentioned, originally, the PYI things were really, really expensive – now they're $14/$15 each and within a budget. I'm going to use them for the little hatches and the things under the aft port bunk.
Bob
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:09 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I just bought one of these, but I paid $40 at the store. I'll let you know how it works in a couple of weeks after I've had a chance to complete a project or two.http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=65700
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Oops, no they're not – they used to be $40 each. Now a more reasonable $14.00 each for 1/2″ – 3/4″, more for 1-1/4″ – 1-1/2″. Come in kits, too.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Here's the things I was thinking of using, except, of course, they are so expensive as to be prohibitive:
http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=panel_anchor&action=floor-anchors&sn=2
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Here's the things I was thinking of using, except, of course, they are so expensive as to be prohibitive:
http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=panel_anchor&action=floor-anchors&sn=2
Bob
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s/v Pelican
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Hey! Those would be great on the lids over the water heater, batteries (in my case) and outboard stowage locker. On the floorboards, though, I like the manly stainless steel latches. I run a manly ship with manly fittings.
Also, the match the ones I put on already.
Bob
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Pete Dubler < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Used on race car and airplane skins and the like for quick opening and closing. I believe Southco now owns them. Just google dzus fasteners and you will find them. The question is do they make any long enough.
Robert Fine wrote:
Eh? What are they?
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Pete Dubler < ([email][/email])
I have thought about dzus fasteners for the small hatches.
Robert Fine wrote:
Hi Peter,
I use a circular saw. Not just any, but a Rigid 24V saw with a
narrow carbide blade. You need some clearance anyway, and the
blade relieves about 5/64ths which is more than enough.I put down blue painting tape and draw the appropriate line on
it. It's that simple. Make sure you don't cut deeper than
the thickness of the floorboards (measure in another opening).
You're good to go.The hardest part for me is putting the frame around it, but I
think I have a way. More on that later. My friend, Leigh,
made patterns for the latches, and with them and a pattern bit
on the router I can install the latches in about 10 minutes each.
I purchase the latches from Marinepartdepot.com and they're
like $19. each. Compared to 49 each anywhere else. I had a
friend with a machine shop make the little right angle
brackets to attach to. Easy-peasy.For the floorboard inboard of the head, I put a cleat under
the garbage bag holder and added only one latch just inboard
the head door.SOLAS requires all floorboards be latched. I haven't figured
out what to do with the little ones around the mast and the
forward cabin.Bob
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Excellent advice! With smaller sails, it should work in heavier weather, tho, right?
Bob
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
Many years ago I used to skipper charters, both bareboat and fully crewed, in the VI. Since the bareboat guests often possessed little experience on a sailboat that size, I taught them a neat little trick the very first hour of the very first day out sailing. I called it The Tor Overboard Drill – what to do if I fall off the boat while we're sailing. Rather than trying to teach them the classic figure 8 pickup, which they'd never remember in an emergency, I taught them to heave-to instantly. All you do is turn the boat hard over as if you're trying to tack, but DO NOT TOUCH ANY LINES. Just turn. When the jib/genoa backwinds, try to turn the boat back the other way, securing the helm hard over. This locks the boat, stops her nearly dead in the water with her beam or even her quarter to the wind. (This is not for heavy weather, but for fair weather only.) She'll then drift very slowly back the way she came so that I could easily regain the vessel. I made several of the guests actually do this, and then ran a surprise drill once or twice during the week's charter. They enjoyed it and I felt safer.
Happy to report, though, that I never did fall overboard during a charter. But I had a couple of guests who did, and we retrieved them in this manner.
Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Quent,
The ABYC standard states that any through hull that is or can be below water in circumstances normally encountered needs a valve. Up at the cove stripe (where the outlet would be) could be considered out of that area. I know that I've tried to put the rail in the water with little success, but I may not be trying hard enough.
Bob
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:56 AM, quent < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Besides John's point about the dirt stains, I think there are a couple other factors worth considering. ABYC considers any thru-hull on the side of a sailboat as requiring a seacock, so there might be an issue with future surveys. The drain outlets would also be in a vulnerable location unless protected by a rubrail.
Another possibility might be to run the drain hoses aft to the transom. The run would be longer, but it would also eliminate the below waterline thru-hulls.
Quent—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Hi Tor,
Thanks for that – I hadn't thought about the bow as a sail, but you're perfectly correct. I think they are more thinking of stopping the boat for a bit of a rest rather than extreme weather conditions, but am not sure. I'll pass this on – let them do what they will….
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Here's where you can get these puppies for not too much money: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=9127&familyName=TH+Marine+90+degree+Thru-Hull – the white plastic ones cost like $15. each. Not bad, eh? And you don't have to purchase 50 of them.
Bob
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi All,
It is my plan to use 90 degree 1-1/2″ thru-hulls to do the job. I can only eliminate 4 of the thru-hulls because the cockpit drains are too low to the water to run out like that – if you were in rough seas, they'd let water in rather than drain it out. But eliminating 4 rather large holes in the bottom can't be a bad thing…
Bob
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Bob Fine
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Hull #8—
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