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Hi All,
It is my plan to use 90 degree 1-1/2″ thru-hulls to do the job. I can only eliminate 4 of the thru-hulls because the cockpit drains are too low to the water to run out like that – if you were in rough seas, they'd let water in rather than drain it out. But eliminating 4 rather large holes in the bottom can't be a bad thing…
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Eh? What are they?
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Pete Dubler < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I have thought about dzus fasteners for the small hatches.
Robert Fine wrote:
Hi Peter,
I use a circular saw. Not just any, but a Rigid 24V saw with a narrow carbide blade. You need some clearance anyway, and the blade relieves about 5/64ths which is more than enough.
I put down blue painting tape and draw the appropriate line on it. It's that simple. Make sure you don't cut deeper than the thickness of the floorboards (measure in another opening). You're good to go.
The hardest part for me is putting the frame around it, but I think I have a way. More on that later. My friend, Leigh, made patterns for the latches, and with them and a pattern bit on the router I can install the latches in about 10 minutes each.
I purchase the latches from Marinepartdepot.com and they're like $19. each. Compared to 49 each anywhere else. I had a friend with a machine shop make the little right angle brackets to attach to. Easy-peasy.For the floorboard inboard of the head, I put a cleat under the garbage bag holder and added only one latch just inboard the head door.
SOLAS requires all floorboards be latched. I haven't figured out what to do with the little ones around the mast and the forward cabin.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Tor,
One or the other – either 5200 and bare aluminum plates or epoxy and plywood. Not both.
Bob
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
5200 rules, but ruthlessly. I'm not encapsulating the plywood. That'll go on between the extra roving and the aluminum backing plates. The plywood is just to spread the bolt stress more widely and evenly across the roving-reinforced surface. Since I'm going to bed the windvane mounts on the outside (of course), and waterproof the inside plywood with a double epoxy coating and bolt sleeves, pray tell why I would want to bed the interior plywood backing at all, let alone glue it permanently to the fiberglass. I'm wide open to a better fix, but just don't see the value in that one – probably because I'm a neophyte repair guy talking to a real engineer.
And now that you mention it, a sugar scoop transom with built-in swim platform might be just the thing.
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Alan,
I do use a router and I have pictures of the patterns on http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com/2008/11/there-is-never-enough-space.html where I describe the whole process.
A pattern bit for a router has a bearing at the top of the bit blade rather than the bottom. The bearing runs on the inside of the pattern for cutting the appropriate shape. I can give you drawings for the patterns for the latches I use, if you like.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Peter,
I use a circular saw. Not just any, but a Rigid 24V saw with a narrow carbide blade. You need some clearance anyway, and the blade relieves about 5/64ths which is more than enough.
I put down blue painting tape and draw the appropriate line on it. It's that simple. Make sure you don't cut deeper than the thickness of the floorboards (measure in another opening). You're good to go.
The hardest part for me is putting the frame around it, but I think I have a way. More on that later. My friend, Leigh, made patterns for the latches, and with them and a pattern bit on the router I can install the latches in about 10 minutes each.
I purchase the latches from Marinepartdepot.com and they're like $19. each. Compared to 49 each anywhere else. I had a friend with a machine shop make the little right angle brackets to attach to. Easy-peasy.
For the floorboard inboard of the head, I put a cleat under the garbage bag holder and added only one latch just inboard the head door.
SOLAS requires all floorboards be latched. I haven't figured out what to do with the little ones around the mast and the forward cabin.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
You will only need to remove the plywood when you install the sugar scoop transom with the built-in swim platform. That's my criteria for 5200. Will I ever need to remove the thing? No? 5200 rules.
That said, everyone has their own way and the mere fact that all boats float indicates that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Or attach backing plates. If you're going to all the trouble of encapsulating plywood then 5200 is not even on the radar. If you're just going with backing plates, then it's a good solution.
Neither is better than the other – just different. Both are accepted ways of doing this.
So, Tor, do it your way and know you've done the best job possible!
Bob
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Good points, Bob.
While aligning the windvane rudder yesterday prior to drilling the mounting bracket holes, I happened to pound on the transom with my fist. No, not in frustration. More like a manly man's kind of “see how solid my boat is” pounding. Only it didn't feel all that solid. Actually, it felt kind of thin and springy. Hence the question I posed to the group. I already knew what I had to do, but wanted an excuse not to do it. Only thanks to Don it didn't work. Also, as you sort of pointed out, that rudder is sure to hit something hard some day. So, I am going to lay on some extra roving as he suggested. Now's the time, hauled out in the yard with the lazarette empty. A little grinding, a little itching and the worst is over.
As for the backing, I do sometimes use 1/4″ aluminum for plates and probably will in this application. As you point out, it's pretty easy to work using ordinary tools. But to really spread the stress over the broadest area, 1/2″ or 3/4″ plywood between the reinforced hull and the backing plates makes sense to me. Yes, I'll remember to bevel the hull-side edges, and I always double-coat plywood with epoxy resin for this kind of thing, and make epoxy sleeves for the bolt holes to preclude water intrusion. None of it is rocket science, just time consuming.
I do not agree with using 5200. There doesn't seem to be a need for that kind of adhesion here – the thru-bolts will hold things in place – and we all know what a bear that stuff is to remove if & when.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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There's only one other thing to consider – what kind of windvane was it and did the damage occur from use or from accident? I know that it's darn easy to back into a dock or have the boat swing or any number of things that would cause the structure to torque, compress, or both causing the kind of damage Don mentions. That said, backing a bolt with something strong is never a bad idea. It needn't be an onerous job, either, especially if you have a recycled metal place nearby. You can use 1/4″ aluminum plate as a backing with 5200 adhesive and it will be far stronger than any stress you can put there (except, of course, backing into a dock, boat, quay, pier, jetty or groin). You can use a standard circular saw or table saw with a carbide blade to cut it and it's super easy to do.
I don't happen to like wood as a backing that much because it can work and compress over a period of time requiring re-tightening. For thru-hulls, fine, but not for variably stressed items. My humble opinion, though.
My two cents again.
Bob
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Aha! That's just the feedback I was looking for (and didn't want to hear). It confirms my suspicions. Thanks, Don. Guess I'll have to deal with it now.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Scott,
A couple of messages back are the pictures.
Pete, with the blade that came with the unit I've done 4 floor openings (4 corners each). The blade is still sharp. I'd say, get one extra. Usually, I'll break a blade before I wear it out (I'll also lose a pen before it's empty – I don't think I've ever worn a pen out). I think you'll be pleased at how well it works.
Bob
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Pete Dubler < ([email][/email])> wrote:
How long do you find the blades last when making cuts like these? (I need to stock up before I go out to my boat).
Pete
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
The Dremel Multimax is a tool that vibrates back and forth around the axis of the tool. Think a right angle grinder but instead of circular motion, it's back and forth. It comes with three blades – one that you can use to cut wood, for instance, in the corners of the cutout like I made. A circular saw will leave some wood in the corners as you know. This tool will cut those pieces out nicely. It's real purpose is for removing boards from a wood floor – you use this to cut the boards across and to remove the tongue so that it pops out.
It also has a triangular sanding do-dah, and a vibrating scraper. You can get a blade that removes grout, too. It's $99. The Fein tool is $279.
Anyway, it's something you'l use once in a very great while, unless you're going to open up your cabin sole like I did -then it's worth the money.
Bob
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Thanks, but I suspect you've got plenty of hippity hopping to do around your own boat.
I have a Dremel tool – don't know how I ever lived without it. What does the Dremel Multi-Max tool do (and why do I expect finding out is going to cost me the price of one)?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
The PO used it for about a year as they made their way from San Francisco to Rhode Island. They cruised the Caribbean for quite a while. The mostly used it with a tiller-pilot autopilot. But the vanes are here, both low and high wind ones.
If you follow the sternrail forward until it turns vertical and attaches to the coaming you'll see it's welded quite poorly to a circular piece. That piece takes all the strain from the lines from the Monitor which is considerable. Anyway, gussets fix the problem. A picture could be provided.
Bob
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
How long has the Monitor been on your boat? Do you know whether the PO used it much? What is “the forwardmost stern rail?”
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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HI Tor,
I don't have any experience with my Monitor, but the backing plates seem to be no more than a big washer. There doesn't seem to be any problem with cracking or anything. For the Monitor, though, the forwardmost stern rail had parted from the foot plate due to the stress. I had a local welder put gussets so that wouldn't happen again and on both sides so that if one did break, I'd have the other to use.
In fact, I could fix the raw water pump now or go to West Marine and buy the line and stuff I need to make it work…
Bob
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
To all who have a windvane on your 424:
Did you (and/or the original installer) feel it necessary to beef up the transom to take that kind of stress,
other than big backing plates for the mounting bolts? Has anyone used a windvane a lot and then discovered or
checked for any signs of stress on the transom?Thanks,
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi John and Tor,
I did it myself. The new Dremel Multi-max tool is just what the doctor ordered for the corners. I've done all the latches myself but need a new pattern bit to finish.
Tor, dude, you say the word and I'll load up my tools and hippity hop down there to do the job!
Bob
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Nice job! When can you do one for me?🙂
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Your wish is my command! Realize I haven't framed out the hatch to match the others, put the bungs in the holes or routed out for the latches. That's a project for another day when I get a pattern router bit.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Okey dokey.
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Silver Heels wrote:
Quote:Bob,
Assuming your buddy can finesse the compound curve of the cushion's outboard edge (and if the price is on the happy side of reasonable), I'm interested. Let me know what he says about cost.
Thanks,
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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