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There’s not enough offset in our boats to affect the steering. It’s not
even close to the amount of vertical offset from the V-drive. When a
designer is trying to minimize walk or torque during powered operation, the
prop is offset a foot or more from centerline.Bob
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:An interesting notion point, Rich. Perhaps our boats have an offset shaft
specifically to reduce prop walk in forward gear in order to lessen the
need to compensate with the rudder.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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You’re right, Tor. If there is any offset, it’s for removing the shaft.
Boats like Tartans and Sabres have a large offset to port. By large, I
mean almost to the turn of the bilge. That is to offset the prop walk. An
offset of an inch or two isn’t enough to change the handling of a 424.Bob
On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:I’d always thought an offset prop shaft was to allow removal without
dropping the rudder. (With a skeg it seems like it’d be essential.)Correcting a boat’s prop walk in forward occurs almost automatically by
slightly cocking the rudder angle. You don’t even think about it. It’s the
strong effect in reverse that flusters some boaters until they understand,
expect and learn to use it.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Yeow! I know the marina. I stayed there for a month a couple of years
ago. I was on the north side, so to get to the fuel dock, I waited for an
incoming tide and just backed right to it – made me look like a king. I
was terrified!Bob
On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 2:15 PM, skipmac wrote:
I pulled my shaft to replace the cutlass and it sure looked like it was
pointed right at the skeg as it came aft.Regarding the handling question. I have to confess that I have somewhat
limited experience with the 422 in close quarters. I only owned it for 9
months before hauling it and trucking it home for the overhaul. In that
time I only had to maneuver around in really tight quarters 3-4 times. The
one that scared the beejeezus out of me was at the Charleston City Marina.Came in to get fuel and was directed to the inside of the T dock. As I
approached I realized there was a current behind me so had the bright idea
to turn around so I could dock into the current. The turning room was
limited by the fuel dock to port and additional docks to stbd and the
finger pier leading out to the fuel dock dead ahead and down current.So swung close to the stbd side docks, backed down some to pull the stern
to stbd, hard over to port and gunned it. Had a bit over two boat lengths
and didn’t come close to bringing the bow around. Was now sideways so
backed down hard and tried again and still didn’t make it. Meanwhile a
2-3 kt current is taking me towards the dead end ahead where a 70′ sloop
with a mirror finish paint job was tied up broadside to me. Came to a
spot where there was a slight gap in the docks to stbd so backed the stern
into the hole to give me a little more room ahead and floored it (do you
say that with a boat?).There I had a bit over 3 boat lengths and just barely got the bow around
without hitting boat ahead on the T dock. In fact the tip of the bow
sprit passed over the head of a woman varnishing the toe rail. The look
on her face! Definitely wide eyed.So maybe the current was a factor in making the turn but you can bet I
waited for slack tide before we left the marina. In the weekend we stayed
there I saw two pretty good fender benders just on our pier. Nice marina,
highly recommended but do watch the tidal currents.Meanwhile once I launch I plan to test out the handling a bit more to see
if I can learn the tricks of the boat._______________________________________________
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s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Hey, John,
The prop isn’t offset at all, at least mine isn’t based on where it goes
through the back end of the keel. The reason you have to keep the wheel
one spoke down to port is because of the torque on the prop, just as in
using right rudder in a prop airplane on taxi because of torque.Bob
On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 8:27 AM, John Stevenson wrote:
Skip,
There may well be a difference between the 424s and 422s. I can’t really
turn to port and rotate the boat within its boat length, but it’s not that
far off. When powering up in forward the boat does have to move forward a
bit before the bow starts to swing, but it is generally pretty responsive
(going both to port and starboard). The prop walk to starboard when
turning to port allows me use short bursts in forward. Going to starboard
I have to use a longer burst and then use reverse to recover some of that
forward movement.
Now that I think of it I’ve never really measured the shaft offset. I’ve
always just assumed it was to the port side of the skeg as when motoring
straight ahead the wheel is one spoke down to port to counter the offset
prop. I’ve only had the prop pulled once to replace the cutlas bearing and
I wasn’t there to observe which side of the skeg it passed by.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 9:57 AM, skipmac wrote:
john stevenson wrote:
This works quite well as long as you want to turn to port. If you need
to turn to starboard you’re SOL.
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comHi John,
I am familiar with the process and have tried it with the 422. My last
boat I could turn port in her own length doing this and I’m disappointedI
can’t do the same with the Pearson.
I have experimented a few times and get just a slight prop walk to stbd
in
reverse which I do use. What I don’t get is any kick to port (or stbd)
in
forward when I goose the engine with the helm hard over. Just about
zero.
I don’t see my bow swing around at all until I get some headway and
water
flow over the rudder. Basically have to get a running start to get the
boat to turn. I wonder if this is a difference with the 422. Ithought
the prop was in the same spot as the 424 but it sounds like you can get a
response that I can’t. I do have a three bladed fixed prop so it’s notan
issue of limited thrust from a folder or two blade.
Also, I eyeballed my prop shaft, strut and cutlass and I can’t see the
offset (to stbd?) I see mentioned for the 424. Mine shaft looks likeit’s
pointed straight at the leading edge of the skeg. Was that done on all
the 424s or just the early or late models or something? Maybe I missed
that feature. My hull was laid in 1983, boat launched 1984. Hull number
18 of 39 of the 422s but not sure where that would line up with the 424
hull numbers._______________________________________________
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s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Actually, as long as you’re turning to port, the back and fill works quite
well as the Pearson will back to starboard. But both are possible.I had a customer with a Pearson 35 that steered like a bucket of oats (even
worse than the 424), primarily because it had a 2 bladed prop in an
aperture. But when he repowered, he put a three bladed prop and wow! what
a difference!I’m wondering if a 4 bladed prop would help on a 424 because it pushes
water more evenly and faster from a dead stop. Just a thought.Bob
On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 8:05 AM, skipmac wrote:
Tor wrote:
Lackluster maneuverability is a 424 trait. I believe it
is caused not by lack of power, but by the great
distance between the propeller and the rudder, the
primary cause of the sluggish, halfhearted response to
bursts of forward power at slow and no speed. It
doesn’t seem like more horsepower will do much to
improve it.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.usHi Tor,
I agree that the prop/rudder relationship has a lot to do with it. Due
to the distance and angle of the prop you can’t get the prop wash impact
against the rudder to kick the stern around. I almost learned the hard
way on my first trip that the Pearson basically will not maneuver until you
have a bit of headway. Came pretty close to taking out the paint job on
a gold plater in Charleston marina but managed to pull it out with at least
2′ to spare.I was speculating that a bit more power and the ability to reach
maneuvering speed in a shorter distance would help. That was my main
thought behind considering more power but probably any improvement would be
minimal.I had wondered if I had lost my boat handling skills since I read a post
somewhere about turning a 424 with reverse prop walk and short bursts in
forward. Used to work quite well with my last boat but couldn’t seem to
get it to work with this one. So in a strange way I’m glad to hear that
it’s the boat and not me.Now for the first time in my life I find myself thinking about bow
thrusters, until I look at the costs. Plus I don’t like the idea of the
turbulence that big hole in the bow would create._______________________________________________
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s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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This is simple: Cole Hersee switches M-550, M-550-14, M-711, M-832 and
M-850.Use this link to see which one fits best:
http://www.colehersee.com/home/grid/cat/88/Bob
On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 11:21 PM, skipmac wrote:
The old switch is about shot and want to replace it but have trouble with
the selection.The existing switch has off/on/crank and a push to engage the glowplugs
momentary position. I have found plenty of switches with
off/on/acc/crank and similar but the only ones I found with a momentary
function were for a carburetor choke and not sure if they would handle the
amperage for the glow plug solenoid.Anyone know a model number for the proper Cole Hersey or similar switch,
preferably a marine grade, water resistant and such.Thanks
Skip_______________________________________________
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Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Sometimes it’s the only way to get a hole from one place to another…
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 2:13 PM, wrote:
Quote:Paying to ship a hole just sounds wrong…
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Hi Charlie,
. It sounds like the right thing. It would be less to
ship if you just ship the hole.Bob
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:45 PM, cstewart wrote:
O.K., here is what I have: it is a 1 5/8″ OD hole on a 6.5×19.25 teak ply
board with a 1/2″ solid teak trim. Came off an old (’72) Pearson 39.
Yours for shipping. I can cut the hole out and just send it. Not just
the hole, but the 1″ around it. Tried to attach a picture, but it didn’t
go. Give me an email address and I will send pic.Charlie
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose
sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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422 or 424, it’s all the same to us!
Ok, if you have the standard Westerbeke engine panel with keyswitch, glow
plug button, and start button AND you have to hold the glow plug button as
well as the start button to start the engine then you only need the off and
on part of the starter switch. Nothing gets connected to the start
terminal. Behind the panel or near the engine there is a relay that powers
the glow plugs.As far as the alarm goes, you connect it in parallel to the idiot light.
I would say that if your current switch works and you have a direct
replacement the easiest thing to do is to replace it.On the W58, the fuel solenoid is energized whenever the ignition switch is
on.Bob
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 12:41 PM, skipmac wrote:
Hi Rich,
Guess I have a dirty little secret to confess. I don’t really have a 424
but the orphan cousin, the 422. Hull, rig, engine and most systems in
common but in addition to the center cockpit, there are some significant
differences.I guess one is the ignition switch and instrument panel. I thought the
424s were like mine but maybe not. I have a panel in the cockpit with all
the instruments and the switch in the panel. Fuel shutoff is a solenoid
activated when the ignition is on so no cable. Would prefer a cable since
it’s less likely to fail and easier to fix than a solenoid but oh well.So the mods would be doable but I already have a very, very long list I’m
trying to finish so I can get back in the water this spring so really
prefer a quick and easy swap out the switch fix on this one.I think I’ve found a couple of Cole Hersee switches that will work, even
though they aren’t specifically made for diesels but do have a momentary
position. My glow plugs do run off a solenoid on the forward end (back of
the block of course) of the engine, just not certain how many amps the
solenoid draws.Thanks
SkipPS. Please don’t kick me off the forum just because my model is two
numbers less than the norm._______________________________________________
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s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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What engine do you have again? Usually there is a button for the glow
plugs. If you have a Westerbeke then just wire the switch exactly as it is.
The glow plug button is wired into the starting circuit.You can tell if you have to press the glow plug button and a start button
to start the engine. Then the power for the glow plugs come from the
starter relay power.Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Feb 21, 2014 10:33 AM, “skipmac” wrote:Hi Bob,
I have a new ON/OFF/START switch but the only way to use that switch with
the glow plugs is to connect their circuit to the ON position which would
mean they are always on when the engine is running. This is my first
engine with glow plugs but I think that is a no no and would burn them out
quickly?I don’t have a relay behind the panel for the glow plugs. The wire goes
from the ignition switch straight to the relay on the block. That relay
is pretty large and I have no idea how many amps it will draw but based on
the size it could be a few.So far all the switches I have found with a push/momentary feature are
made for a carb choke which draws very little. Think one of these would
handle the power to engage the glow plug solenoid? Or, do you know the
rating for that solenoid?Thanks
Skipmadsailor wrote:
Skip,
West Marine and Defender’s both sell OFF-ON-START switches – all you need
for the Westerbeke is the off and on position. The glow plugs don’t take
that much power and the switch is perfectly capable of passing it. Mine
might even have a relay for the glow plugs just behind the instrument
panel, but I’m not sure. They’re cheap (<$15) and easy to install. You
can get them at any auto parts store.Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Hi Skip,
There is a direct replacement for your switch. Instead of an idiot light,
consider a 12vdc piezo alarm from Radio Shack. I replaced my failed buzzer
with it and when there’s high temperature or low oil it makes enough noise
to wake the dead.Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Feb 21, 2014 10:25 AM, “skipmac” wrote:john stevenson wrote:
Skip,
Why not just put the glowplug circuit on separate momentary switch.That’s
how my Westerbecke was wired. My Yanmar switch turns counter clockwise
to
engage the glow plugs, but I’ve never used that feature.
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comThanks John,
Had thought about using a separate momentary for the glow plugs but
available spots on the instrument panel are pretty limited and small. Plus
my instrument panel has a gasketed plexi cover to keep the water out and
just a small cutout to reach the key which would make access to a button in
the panel problematic.Also, I was thinking about using that space to add an idiot light to the
oil pressure and temp sensors. Yes the gauges work but want something
really bright guaranteed to get the attention of whoever is on watch if
something happens with the engine.So yes a separate button would work but not the most ideal solution and
I’m striving for perfection. OK, stop laughing. I’ll confess that I will
settle for workable and easy._______________________________________________
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Skip,
West Marine and Defender’s both sell OFF-ON-START switches – all you need
for the Westerbeke is the off and on position. The glow plugs don’t take
that much power and the switch is perfectly capable of passing it. Mine
might even have a relay for the glow plugs just behind the instrument
panel, but I’m not sure. They’re cheap (<$15) and easy to install. You
can get them at any auto parts store.Bob
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:37 AM, John Stevenson wrote:
Skip,
Why not just put the glowplug circuit on separate momentary switch. That’s
how my Westerbecke was wired. My Yanmar switch turns counter clockwise to
engage the glow plugs, but I’ve never used that feature.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 11:21 PM, skipmac wrote:
The old switch is about shot and want to replace it but have trouble with
the selection.The existing switch has off/on/crank and a push to engage the glowplugs
momentary position. I have found plenty of switches with
off/on/acc/crank and similar but the only ones I found with a momentary
function were for a carburetor choke and not sure if they would handlethe
amperage for the glow plug solenoid.
Anyone know a model number for the proper Cole Hersey or similar switch,
preferably a marine grade, water resistant and such.Thanks
Skip_______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Thanks, Charlie! I appreciate it!
Bob
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:01 AM, cstewart wrote:
I will get my hands on it and check the size this morning, then get back
to you.
Charlie Stewart
s/v OneEighty, hull 54
Gulf Shores, Alabama
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose
sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Thanks, Charlie! I appreciate it!
Bob
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:01 AM, cstewart wrote:
I will get my hands on it and check the size this morning, then get back
to you.
Charlie Stewart
s/v OneEighty, hull 54
Gulf Shores, Alabama
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose
sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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That door might be right (I’m sorry, I don’t know your first name cstewart,
or if I do or did I don’t remember it). If you look at the outer diameter
of the piece that’s in the hole, it should be 1-3/8″. If it’s smaller than
that it won’t work. Believe it or not, I’ve gotten holes out of doors
before. They’re varnished in. A heat gun works.Thanks,
Bob
On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 11:29 PM, cstewart wrote:
Bob: I have a spare cabinet door that has the finger hole in it and I will
give you the whole thing if you want to pay for shipping. It is about a
5″x12″ teak (veneer) door with the larger hole that came off an old Pearson
39 that I never could use or throw away. I will dig it out of the shop
tomorrow if you are interested. However, I bet the finger hole won’t come
out in one piece.
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose
sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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