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The one picture that's missing is where the midship ladder is indicated on the plan. If there's a ladder there, you have a standard ketch layout with the midships hatch replaced with a regular hatch. That is, if the interior plan is correct. Certainly, there's nothing preventing you from popping out a regular opening hatch rather than a sliding one.
Bob
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Very good, John, I agree with all your points. I've never used the ATN thing, although there are those that swear by it (and no doubt at it).
Here's the problem – if you only have one halyard for the jib, you're already in trouble – you have to lower the main jib before you raise the storm one.
Here's the thing – I've been in a full gale with the jib, staysail, and mizzen (35kts) and the boat, although pressed, is easily handled. With a staysail and mizzen, I've been in 40kts, if only for a few minutes but there was NO DRAMA. Sailing on a close reach at 7.5 knots and less than 15 degrees heel.
If I were to recommend any rig, and you didn't have a solent stay, I'd strongly recommend an inner forestay, a la cutter. The sail helps in light wind (to the tune of a knot +) and as the wind pipes up, provides all the power you need.
The downside is that you need special deck fittings (pictures available), and you need running backstays for the main mast. You also need a block for the staysail halyard. Another downside is tacking and gybing – the inner stay is a pain in the butt to deal with. However, a solent stay is even worse in that you HAVE to furl the main jib and unfurl it on the other tack. Most people I know with solents never bother to use the jib because of that 'feature'. Your experience could be different.
If you can't guess, I'm totally happy with the staysail rig. You could add a furler to it, you could make it so the baby stay can be removed quickly or whatever. But the staysail is small enough and tough enough to be a true storm sail. If not, you could manage to change it as it's way back on deck and it's much, much smaller than even a 120% jib.
My two cents….
Bob
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:26 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Alan,
I think you got three different answers all saying the same thing – neither approach is a good idea.If I understood the two options you were presented, both intended to use the foil to secure the luff of the SJ. The difference was in the hoist. Both sails appear to be racing storm jibs – where the objective is to keep sailing and in the race direction. I've been on the foredeck (20 years and 70 pounds ago) dousing a #3 genoa and hoisting a racing SJ in 45 kts and 10' seas. It was an adrenalin rush, but I also had two very competent crew members on deck with me and a really good helmsman in the cockpit. I would not want to do the same on this boat with my general pickup crew from among friends. Fortunately at my advanced age and weight no one wants me on their foredeck in those conditions anymore.
Without an inner forestay on which to hank the SJ the only other option I know of is the ATN solutioni (aka Rolly Tasker) which uses a sleeve to wrap around the furled genoa. I had one onboard for years before I installed the Solent Stay, but never rigged it in anger. It's still a bitch to be in the bow pulpit trying to wrap that sleeve around the furled sail while the bow keeps plunging a few feet below the water surface. Better to be back near the mast when on deck in those conditions.
I don't think there's anything inheirently unsound in using the foil to secure the luff of an SJ. I think you'll find that the Volvo Around the World racers all use those sail configurations. Again the devil is in the details of of how you get it flying.
John
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 4:05 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I don't care how many crew you have. I wouldn't want to be pulling down and stowing a large gennoa in a blow. There are ways to add an inner forestay to be used just for a storm jib. We've exchanged quite a lot of mail about this in the past.—
Rich Carter
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Don't buy a sail from the first sailmaker. The luff tape is no where strong enough to deal with the stresses of a storm jib. Moreover, you could ask the second sailmaker to include the wire rope throughout the luff so that it can be raised independently of the main jib. That way you don't have to remove the main jib, just furl it.
There are other options as well.
Bob
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 10:18 AM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Question about luff tape on a storm jib.
Two conflicting opinions.
One sail maker suggests having luff tape that runs from the tack point on the furler all the way to the top (masthead).
The other sail maker says luff tape just the length of the sail with pendants attached to bring the furler mechinisim up to the top.
What configurations of attachments are others using.
thanks
alan
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Hi Rodd,
Use a SS plate or aluminum plate – it sinks and and will stay down and won't corrode. You could also use 1/2 acrylic. Don't use wood. It floats. It rots. It smells bad.
Bob
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:03 AM, Rodd Leeds < ([email][/email])> wrote:
In preparation for in-water storage this winter I want to install a rule 500 bilge pump and a float switch in the deep bilge. My question is how best to anchor the pump and switch in the bilge. I thought perhaps to mount both items on a peice of wood and then screw the wood to the bottom of the deep bilge. Any ideas here would be helpful.
Thanks.
Rodd Leeds
Windseeker—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
I'm here for ya, buddy! Of the three transmissions Pearson used, the Paragon is the only one that can't freewheel, but it's also able to be locked. The Hurth will freewheel in neutral just fine and so will the Velvet Drive. Ah, well. Lock 'er up! The only caveat for the Velvet drive is to not leave it in reverse.
Bob
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Smart. That's why I like running stuff by an engineer. I have a Paragon transmission, which I gather cannot be allowed to freewheel. Too bad. Otherwise, I'd put a generator or an alternator on the shaft, too.Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
I agree with you, too, Tor, in that many people have had great success with MaxProps and the like. You could sail your entire life with one with no problems assuming you haul out and maintain every year.
If my transmission was in jeopardy from the spinning prop, I'd definitely go with a prop that feathers or folds or sucks into itself or whatever. From my perspective, though, it's energy that's there for the tapping. It could solve so many problems – and allow me to run the watermaker under sail. And the refrigerator. And the stereo. And the washer -dryer, microwave, and 48″ flat screen TV. No, just kidding about the TV.
Really, in the microcosm of a boat at sea exists the same underlying issues that affect all of us – no matter what society we live in, from the worst parts of Africa to the best parts of, I don't know, Dubai. We all have to manage resources – and all resources can be related to energy. The engine, generator, electrical system, wind all are providers of energy. For the 1/2kt or so the spinning prop takes, it could provide 30A of power at a leisurely 5 kts. That's a lot of power.
True, at anchor it's not so terribly useful (unless you anchor in the Bay of Fundy), but there are the solar panels for that.
And in 30k of sailing (I sure hope I can come somewhere near that, my friend!) I hope to have ice, water, cold beer for friends, and all the safety stuff I need to keep me going.
So that's my thinking in spinning props.
Bob
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 6:08 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I agree, Bob, that simpler is better, especially underwater. Still, there is a long track record of trouble-free performance from Max-Props when they're properly maintained, i.e., disassembled and serviced annually during haul-out. I had one on my last cruising boat and enjoyed 30k n. miles of flawless performance from it over 6 years. Would've put one on this boat except for budgetary issues. They're awfully expensive, and there are other doo-dads taking priority.But the main point, of course, is that we're happy campers.
🙂
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi John,
If your MaxProp is working correctly, you don't need a permanent shaft brake but something that will drag on the shaft with the engine off – A simple belt brake would work, but that adds complexity.
Phillipe, I'm sorry for your loss… But it points out what I've often said – I don't want things that multiple parts that can fail underwater. A folding or feathering prop presents, to me anyway, a horribly complicated and delicate point of failure. It's really hard to break a fixed prop (although even that is possible).
If I could make everything as simple and bulletproof as a fixed prop, I'd be a happy camper.
Oh, wait. I am already a happy camper!
Bob
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Hi John,
I have the W58 and Velvet Drive and it does indeed freewheel with no problem – to be honest, rather than stop it, I want to use it to generate power. There is a company that makes the self-regulated (and programmable) alternator that needs an 8″ pulley on the propeller shaft.
That's the way I'm going.
Bob
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 8:38 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Patrick,
Let me add my thanks for your scanning these documents. With my re-power I now have a Velvet Drive tranny and the problem of the propeller free-wheeling under sail. Withe Paragon tranny I just had to shut down the engine in gear and the Maxprop would feather. That is not an option with the V-D. I was very interested to see the statement in the manual that free-wheeling is not a problem under sail or at trollng speeds. Of course this is just the opposite of what all the experts advise so I'm not ready to just ignore the problem, but I sure don't want to have to add a shaft brake. I have questions into my installer and the V-D people on this issue.John
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Patrick Walters < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:The Warner Velvet Drive Transmission 70C 71C Service Manual is now posted.I just realized how faint that owner's manual came out. I'll have to redo that one.
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.comPatrick's Sailing Blog | http://www.shipsrecord.com/blogs/patrick
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<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
That aft bunk is a wonder to behold – where is your hot water heater, though? I love the idea and may implement it.
Bob
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Patrick Walters < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I am very partial to this setup in Spirit's aft cabin : http://www.searspirit.com/spirit/aft_cabin.htm-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com
Patrick's Sailing Blog | http://www.shipsrecord.com/blogs/patrick<.. snip>
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Thanks Joe!
Bob
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Joseph Steiner < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I have a Spectra 200c. It is rated at 8 gal/hr and is currently producing around 5 gal/hr. It is mounted in the port lazerrete.
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Hi Tor,
I was wondering if it would fit aft of the watertank… Right – Recovery Engineering! The 40E is 'folded' – the 35 has the motor and gearbox in line with the membrane.
I was also wondering, should I get the manual handle kit?
I don't mind mounting it in an exposed area, though. I thought if I run a hose up to the bow for a washdown pump, maybe I could open the forward tank so that it is 'storage' as with the watermaker, I don't need to carry another 50 gallons around (450 lbs).
Lots of decisions….
Bob
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hey Bob,I believe these 12V watermakers started out in the mid-80's under the brand name “Recovery Engineering,” and I had a '35' on my last cruising boat. It was GREAT! Used it continuously for 6 years. So I picked up a factory-refurbished PowerSurvivor 40E to install in Silver Heels. Have not quite gotten to that yet, but will soon. My thought is to put it in an existing box-like locker beneath the mid-ship companionway ladder, or else in the narrow space just abaft the starboard water tank.
Will be interested to know what you decide to do.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
I've heard that, too. For what it's worth, regular green ethylene glycol is perfectly fine and will last properly for up to 5 years. I'm not sure how much longer a 'long life' antifreeze could last.
I know people who have had their boats for a decade without changing antifreeze. Not that I advocate it, but if you're going to use the cheap green stuff or the expensive red stuff and change it every year or so, you might as well use the cheap green stuff that you know is compatible with your engine.
So ends my two cents.
Bob
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Oh, yeah, I forgot about that – I have two snubbers – 25' of 5/8 nylon line with an eye on one end and a chain hook on the other – I use them singly or in pairs depending on the conditions.
If you have a windlass (and you do if you have chain or you have a crew of deck apes) you should NEVER depend on the windlass to hold the boat. In addition, the bow rollers are not designed for the stresses of the boat motion on the anchor chain. The cleats, however, are designed for just that.
Snubbers are easy to make and one of the cheapest things you'll ever purchase for the boat (excepting light bulbs). Don't leave home without them.
Bob
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 5:12 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Aaron,
There are some other considerations regarding the “correct amount of rope,” or “line” as Bob corrected me
yesterday. In choppy conditions, the boat and anchors benefit by having some stretch in the rode. Chain alone
can't provide that. It'll cushion the bucking or pitching shock up to a point simply by its own weight having
to lift off the bottom, but when it does straighten out there is a violent shock to the system. In extreme
conditions something eventually has to break. Nylon line provides the necessary buffer, acting as a shock
absorber because of it's stretchy nature. When you anchor with an all chain rode, you may benefit by attaching
a length of nylon line to the chain with a chain hook or a rolling hitch, feed out another 15'-30' of chain,
depending on conditions, and then take up the tension on the line & secure it to the bow. The first 15'-30' or
whatever of chain then hangs slightly limp from the bow.Taking this a step further, you can install a strong, back-plated eye bolt in the stem just a foot or so above
the waterline and splice or shackle a length of anchor line to it. The bitter end attaches to the all-chain
rode as described and gets fed out when you anchor, again so that the line takes the strain and the first
section of chain is limp. This not only provides the rode stretch when needed, but lowers the angle of pull on
the anchor and so reduces the amount so scope necessary for a given depth of water.OK, I've probably said too much. I'm off to the bilges to run new sanitation hoses. Fun!
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Original MessageQuote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
To add to the mix, I have a 35Kg (75lbs) Bruce as my main anchor with 200 feet of chain, a secondary anchor that's a 45lb CQR with 40 feet of chain and some kind of wierd, but wonderful rode (and no, there are only two ropes on a ship -the bolt rope on the sail and the bell rope). My stern anchor is a 25lb Fortress with 200 feet of chain.
I know for a fact that 6 424's can be held in 15+ knots of wind in a mud bottom with the Fortress. I'll never laugh at one again. If you get it to catch, you have a good anchoring. You have to be careful because it can skip along the bottom easier than regular anchors that depend on weight to catch.
For chain and line rodes, the rule of thumb is use at least the length of the boat's worth of chain.
Anchoring is mostly magic, so whatever works for you works for you.
Bob
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 6:23 PM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I have both CQR and Bruce on the bow. The boat came with 275 feet of 3/8 BBB chain. I have since replaced it with 300 feet of 5/16 HT. Lighter but stronger. I did that when I install the electric windlass. I saw the old thing coming fast.
lan— On Wed, 9/24/08, Rodd Leeds < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Chuck,
Pat figured it out – It's Beluga
Owned by:
WM MIKE JOHNSON
205 WOODSIDE DR
BAYTOWN, TX 77520Bob
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Chuck Ruble < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I'm pretty certain this is a 424. Is it possibly somebody on the list here?
This was included in a message forwarded to me in a power point presentation of Ike images.Chuck
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Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
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