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Hi Tor,
I'm a firm believer that using plastic is way better than metals not designed for the marine environment – case in point, brass (copper and zinc) (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass ). As an alloy, brass is fine for fresh water but terrible for seawater. Bronze is essentially copper and tin, a much more expensive and corrosion resistant metal.
You may not see those fittings fail. But whoever purchases Silver Heels will. Schedule 40 PVC piping is designed for fluids not to exceed 140 degrees F and 120 psi. Since I don't expect to be sailing in waters of that temperature, I'm fairly confident in the fittings. I used threaded valves so that they can be replaced.
I already have a bilge washdown as a 'T' on the engine water intake (which also allows me to fill the engine with antifreeze when the time comes.)
But that's just my opinion. As you well know, I have a million of them.
Bob
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hey Bob,I originally bought PVC fittings to make my manifold, but heard around the yard that an insurance surveyor might take issue with that. So I returned the fittings to Home Depot and swapped them for brass (photo attached). My end users are: watermaker, toilet, galley sink and deck washdown. The gate valve & barb at the left end are for a bilge rinse hose. I can pull off the feed barb at the other end to clean the length of the manifold occasionally, and can easily add on more T-gatevalve-barb sections for additional end users if I ever need to. I think it's going to work well.
I put a grill over the thru-hull on the outside of the hull last haul-out. Was tempted to install a plastic Shurflo in-line water strainer (rated 150 psi) between the thru-hull and the manifold, but decided to use a bronze Groco or Raritan raw water strainer instead. They're a lot more expensive, but I don't like the idea of a plastic fitting adjacent to a thru-hull. Hoping to find a used Groco or whatever at Sailor's Exchange next week. (Anybody out there have one they want to sell?!)
As for running hoses, tell me about it! I've just about completed a substantial replacement of the original hoses in Silver Heels during the past week or so. All the freshwater system hoses and all the sanitation hoses. Just waiting now for my 1-1/2″ & 3/4″ sanitation hose to arrive, hopefully tomorrow. BTW, I found a really cheap source for Series 148 sanitation hose, less than half the Port Supply price: http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/pdf/196.pdf .
Mounting a new toilet this afternoon. Fun.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
It was a rainy day on Friday so I went to Home Depot and got all the PVC parts and valves to make my own manifold – I have the seawater foot pump for the galley and the water for the head and soon a seawater washdown system so I made a 5 valve manifold (pictures soon, if you want) for expansion – never know what else, like a water maker, will use seawater.
I used the white sanitary hose from the thru hull to the manifold inlet which has a valve and then each provider has its own valve, too, and a cap on the end in case I end up with more stuff. I'll wire tie the unused valves shut.
The hardest part of the job was providing a new hose to the head. That took an hour. the rest of the job took about three hours. Mostly because the thru hull is in a terrible place behind the refrigerator compressor.
Oh, and the hose you're talking about is perfect. ABYC indicates you should double clamp any hose fitting that can be below water in normal heel angles.
Bob
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Wow, that little?I'm installing a seawater intake manifold that will draw from a thru-hull 3' below the waterline. This will let me feed all of the seawater users in the boat from just one thru-hull – except for the engine, which has its own, dedicated thru-hull. Anyway, I wondered if reinforced Series 162 polyester reinforced clear PVC tubing (i.e., the kind of hose you'd normally use for your boat's pressure freshwater system) would be all right to use between the thru-hull and the manifold. Its burst pressure is 250 lbs, so I guess it is strong enough.
Anyone know if there are there any ABS or USCG regs about hoses from below-waterline thru-hulls (other than the obvious double-clamping)?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi, John,
In absolute pressure terms, yes, but since the inside of the boat is also subject to the 14.7 psi the pressure you'd be measuring is the delta, or around a pound and a half.
Bob
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:32 AM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Wouldn't the pressure have to include atmospheric pressure on the water surface for a total of around 16 psi at the through-hull?
John
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Yes. It's easy. Water in a column provides about .49 pounds per square inch. That means for every 2 feet or so, it's a pound (close enough). At three feet, you could say, then, it's 1.5 psi static pressure (dynamic is not taken into account here). It's also the reason that water pressure at 33 feet is twice atmospheric (about 14.7 x 2). This is close enough for government work. If you're building something that will only withstand 2 psi, I'd make it stronger.
You could look up the exact conversion, but half a pound per foot is pretty close.
Bob
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Does anyone know, or know how to figure out, the mean (psi) pressure of seawater 3' below the surface? In
other words, what is the pressure on a hose connected to a thru-hull 3' below the waterline?Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
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Regards,
John Stevenson
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Bob Fine
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Yes. It's easy. Water in a column provides about .49 pounds per square inch. That means for every 2 feet or so, it's a pound (close enough). At three feet, you could say, then, it's 1.5 psi static pressure (dynamic is not taken into account here). It's also the reason that water pressure at 33 feet is twice atmospheric (about 14.7 x 2). This is close enough for government work. If you're building something that will only withstand 2 psi, I'd make it stronger.
You could look up the exact conversion, but half a pound per foot is pretty close.
Bob
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Does anyone know, or know how to figure out, the mean (psi) pressure of seawater 3' below the surface? In
other words, what is the pressure on a hose connected to a thru-hull 3' below the waterline?Tor
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Hi Tor,
God willin' an' the crick doan' rise, next summer, next fall at the latest. I've decided to putter and explore the ICW before hopping off to the Bahamas. Then, who knows? Other islands, other Caribbean places? Or to Bermuda and then England?
Long and short of it is that I have a Monitor and I'll have to live with it. It's a bit like whose God is better. Or, if you're offended by that, then whose dad is smarter.
Both vanes have survived a whole crapload of miles of sailing. One nice thing I've found with my Monitor without having to use it at all is that it's a handy way to get out of the water at the stern.
In any engineering problem, they're bound to be many usable solutions -these are two. I've also used Plastimo wind pilots – it works especially well with tillers (which I wish I had, by the way).
For Alan, who asked about upwind sailing with the mizzen, I've found it's optional but does help balance the boat and in really light wind is pretty effective. As the wind increases, however, the first sail I drop is the main. I don't know if it's because of the staysail or not, but jib and jigger is a really comfortable sail combination. (Add the staysail and it's also fast).
But I digress. I suspect that any good quality windvane steering system that's well made and meets your needs will be perfect. And I'll defend to the death your right to have one of those other ones… 🙂
Bob
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hey Bob,Everything you say makes sense, as usual. (Far be it from me to argue, or even debate, with an engineer!) Anyway, there is no absolute right or wrong here.
By all accounts the Cape Horn seems to be the hands-down winner off the wind in light air. Even Hans is likely to give it that. It's also a smart, esthetically pleasing machine with an excellent track record. It will allow me to use the davits that came with my boat, my mizzen boom won't hit the vane, and I'll spend a thousand bucks less buying it than I would for a new Monitor. Beyond that, I'll have to get back to you in a year or two with some personal experiences to report. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of impressive testimonials at capehorn.com to encourage me.
This stuff is not real important. What is is that we might get to raft up in some really exotic place one of these days and raise a toast or two to… whatever comes to mind. When are you planning to set sail?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
To add fuel to the fire, I have both a short and tall vane for the monitor. In light wind, the tall one is used and of course interferes with the mizzen on a tack or gybe. I'm sure I'll break at least one of them. The short one for winds over about 15 knots doesn't interfere at all.
The bigger problem for all windvane steering systems is that on very close reaches and close hauled courses the spilling wind from the main on sloops and mizzen on ketches or yawls give the windvane false directions. It causes the whole system to hunt at best and not be able to steer at worse.
This is especially true where the boom ends just short of the windvane's vane (paddle).
Now that my stern pulpit (pushpit?) is reinforced, I'm rarin' ta try my monitor.
I also have a simple Simrad tiller pilot that runs the vane with little power draw.
I'm not crazy about the lines in the cockpit, but they are arranged to pass in the aft starboard corner to a double block directly below the wheel.
Since I normally spend a large amount of time tripping, I don't see the addition of one more line set as a huge downside. Those less clumsy might not feel that way.
Bob
Pelican #8On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Pat,I won't know until later how much my new bimini/dodger actually effect a windvane when sailing hard on the wind. They may not. On my last boat it was not an issue. Anyway, I'm not worried about it because our Pearson 424's (and most other decently designed sailboats) will self-steer to windward in most conditions with nothing more than reasonably good sail trim. On all other tacks, the cockpit canvas won't interfere.
Maybe switching to a taller vane will be an answer, at least in light airs when the boat might not stay balanced to windward on her own. As you say, if the mizzen did come across it would only deflect the paddle for a few seconds. I tend to use windvane steering on long tacks anyway.
Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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If you have a Port Supply card, you're in the industry. If you don't you're not. Hahahaha!
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 4:52 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:How do you suppose West Marine determines who is “in the marine industry” and who isn't?Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi John,
I have a Monitor windvane which also can use a tillerpilot autopilot. In addition, I have a new Raymarine ST6002 autopilot.
Bob
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 5:31 AM, John Sommer < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hello,
There was some discussion this summer about the Cape Horn wind vanes…has there been any follow-up. Someone mentioned the possibility of a group purchase. I have been mulling over the purchase because I currently have a 20 year old Benmar autopilot that I really don't feel that secure about taking off-shore as my primary steering system.
I am currious what other 424's have done/are planing for steering off-shore.
John
Indulgence
Portland, ME
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Glad to have helped! Hope you didn't break anything internally blowing on the tubing. Humans are notoriously bad compressors.
Bob
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Chief Engineer Bob,Just a note to thank you again for your smart & simple suggestion for figuring out which freshwater line led
where. My lungs did suffice (in lieu of an air compressor) and I was able to track each hose to its outlet per
your recommendation. Now I have a headache from blowing so friggin' hard through all those long tubes, but
victory is mine!Tor
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http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Rodd,
If my experience will help, and I hope it does, it's the hoses to the shower behind the stall – the fittings are awful and sometimes installed incorrectly. By that I mean the little metal ring is on wrong and the thing never seals properly. Also, the hoses outboard of the shower take a very sharp turn that leaves sideways pressure on the fitting. That will make it leak. I've replaced mine with the fittings you can get at Home Depot and they work flawlessly. I also put a opening hatch to use that space for storage on Pete's and Tor's suggestion.
The other leak I had was the fittings under the head sink. Oh, and I don't know if the previous owner did this or one before that but the connections to the faucets were an abomination of tape, slit hoses, hose clamps and an ungodly number of brass couplings, reducers, and whatnot. Check that out, too.
Bob
On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Rodd Leeds < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Tor:Thanks for info on lifelines! I'll check with your source.
As for the water system, I have a persistent leak somewhere, but I cannot find it! My pump keeps cycling every minute or two for a few seconds. I may have to replace some lines and connectors as well. I noticed that my original lines are 1/2″ OD pex-type tubing. What are you using for the replacement lines and connectors to the sinks?
Rodd
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Hi Rodd,
I'd first check the connections on the batteries to make sure there's no corrosion. Then, it sounds like one bank is weak. It would draw down quicker because it doesn't hold a charge properly.
That's my guess.
Bob
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Rodd Leeds wrote:
Just got back from a 10 day trip to the Vineyard and Cape. Noticed that at the end of each day when I went to charge batteries, one bank always took about twice the amperage of the second bank, even though both banks were placed in parallel at all times to increase the overall amp hours of the now one bank. Banks are identical, 2 Trojan T-105's in each bank yielding a total of 425 Ah.
Would one suspect that the bank that is not being drawn down as far is failing, or not up to snuff? I find this very curious!
Thanks for your thoughts.
Rodd Leeds
Windseeker—
Bob Fine
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That's funny, Tor. I have the same thing without the '1,2,3' or anything. If you have a freshwater fitting (I put one on my boat), use an air compressor set at 40# or less and open one faucet at a time. The appropriate tube will empty and you'll see that.
Failing that, and this is really a one time deal, put some food coloring in the water tank (green always freaks people out) and do the same thing watching which tube becomes green. If you need to do it a second time, you'll be rinsing the tanks a lot.
Oh! Hey! I put a 'T' with a valve before the pump to allow the tanks to drain to the bilge (for flushing) or for pumping anti-freeze through the system (never!) or for whatever. Use a pail of colored water. Saves flushing the tank. Easiest and cheapest. Also, don't have to run pump to drain tanks.
Bob
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
My 1978 P424 has two vertical brass freshwater manifolds coming off of the water heater. These direct the
pressurized water throughout the boat. One feeds three hot water hoses labeled “H1, “H2,” and “H3.” The other
feeds four cold water hoses labeled, “1,” “2,” “3,” and “4.” These numbers are written on the hoses in black
magic marker at their manifold ends, but (oh-so-brilliantly) not at their outlet ends. There is no schematic.
I need to know where each of those hoses leads. Assuming the numbering is original factory, does anyone know
which hoses goes to what outlets? The choices are: forepeak sink, galley sink, head sink, and one cold water
hose (only) for a freshwater toilet.Thanks,
Tor
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Yup, that's the place(s)!
Bob
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 6:41 PM, adam silverstein < ([email][/email])> wrote:
thank you, bob. popes marina is 2.25 a foot, justified by nice poopers and showers and laundry. the topless bar is “foxy lady,” I think.
-Adam Silverstein-iPhone (“trust everyone but cut the cards”)
On Aug 20, 2008, at 7:27 PM, “Robert Fine” < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi Adam,
There are moorings on the right before the first bridge that belong to a marina. They don't cost much but if you don't go ashore there they won't come out for the money. They don't have a launch and you'd go to the other side of the harbor to see town anyway.
However there's a West Marine or Boat US behind the marina and also a topless bar which you might not enjoy but some might.
Anyway, they do have slips. I don't know the name, but that's all I can say.
Bob
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:00 PM, adam silverstein < ([email][/email]) ([email][/email])> wrote:
any recommendations for marinas? I'm enjoying the walking tour/sanitary hose replacement tomorrow. thanks all.
-Adam Silverstein-iPhone
(“trust everyone but cut the cards”)
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Hi Adam,
There are moorings on the right before the first bridge that belong to a marina. They don't cost much but if you don't go ashore there they won't come out for the money. They don't have a launch and you'd go to the other side of the harbor to see town anyway.
However there's a West Marine or Boat US behind the marina and also a topless bar which you might not enjoy but some might.
Anyway, they do have slips. I don't know the name, but that's all I can say.
Bob
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 9:00 PM, adam silverstein < ([email][/email])> wrote:
any recommendations for marinas? I'm enjoying the walking tour/sanitary hose replacement tomorrow. thanks all.
-Adam Silverstein-iPhone
(“trust everyone but cut the cards”)
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I happen to have one of the Fairclough covers- I found it in Vermont for $500 brand new! Had to buy a frame, though… 1,200….
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:the nicest covers I hace seen are made by fairclough sailmakers in CT. Note they are pricey David ThompsonOn Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Adam MacNeill wrote:
Can anyone suggest a good winter cover for the 424? Also, would anyone have one they would like to part with?
Adam
Fifth Child #218___________________________________
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