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Joe,
I have a manual Lofrans Royal, which appears have the same mechanics
(gears, chain wheels, etc.) as the TIgres, just lacks the motor on the aft
end of the windlass. The chain off my Royal nearly drops directly into the
deck locker. If the PO had installed it about 1″ further aft it would be a
direct drop. As it is the chain rolls over the forward edge of the locker
without an coaxing by me. Since my windlass is manual, I’m standing in the
locker when cranking in the chain. As castles build up I can easily kick
them down toward the forward, under deck, portion of the locker. I have
cranked nearly 200′ of 5/16″ G4 chain into this space with no problems.
I am considering replacing the Royal with a Tigres. The upper body workout
I get with the Royal is losing its appeal.
How as that windlass worked for you. Most of the windlasses i’ve looked at
(Quick, Maxwell, etc) offer a 1500W motor for vessels our size. The Tigres
is 1200W. I’m trying to determine if those extra 300W are really
important as they cost a lot of $$$ over the price of the Tigres.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
Quote:Robert,
What kind of windlass arrangement do you have? I have a Lofrans Trigres
and the chain needs to drop 90 degrees coming off the windlass. So using
the upper locker is very tricky for me. I like the idea of feeding it
there, even if temporarily to avoid castleing in the lower locker and
running back and forth to the v-berth..so I will try to figure a way to
feed it from the windlass without losing a finger or two if/when the chain
slips off the windlass.Joe,
Half Moon________________________________
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It seems to me, using the water tank for chain has the problem of getting
access to pull the chain out of the below decks locker. I think Tor is
right, you would have to manually pull the chain into the tank – it would
not fall naturally from the deck into the tank. That presents the problem
of access without major modifications to the V-Berth. My V-Berth cushion
is one piece and is a PITA to lift or move. If and when I replace that
cushion, it would be with one with a hinge down the center to allow it to
be folded and moved out of the forward cabin more easily. It would still
be a PITA, just less so.As I understand it, Quent’s solution of running the chain into the forward
bilge and cutting an access port below the berth provides access to the
chain while only requiring the V-Berth insert removal.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Quent,Your right on both counts. I’m not sure how Dan envisions using the
forward water tank space, if he goes that route. If I were to use it on
my boat, it would be as the repository for the infrequently used portion
of primary anchor’s rode-&-chain rather than for the whole pile, similar
to how some others among us use the bilge space aft of the tank. I’d
probably have to hand-feed it in, but if done right it would run out by
itself when needed. Meanwhile, unlike using the forward bilge, the
converted tank would maintain the watertightness of the overall chain
locker, which matters to me; keeping the bottom muck out of the boat.
The regularly used portion of the chain, the first 100′ or so, then
should have enough room to settle and pile in my (already modified)
chain locker directly below the windlass.Just thinking out loud.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Original Message
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Joe,
I think you will find that 5/16 does not castle as much as the 3/8 BBB,
but I’m not sure the difference is so great to make the problem go away. I
carry 300′ of 5/16 plus 200′ of rope. However I let my chain fall into the
deck locker when hauling in. As long as I have not put out more than 200′
if just piles up in the forward end of the locker. Then when I’ve got the
anchor secured I move the chain down into the lower locker (or leave it in
the deck locker if I’m just sailing a short distance that day). When
moving the chain to the lower locker I do get a castle problem. I have a
small garden hoe that I use to knock down the castles from the V-berth.
Jack & Patricia Tyler, when they owned Whoosh, told me their normal
operation was Jack on deck pumping the windlass and Patricia in the V-berth
knocking down the castles. They also used 5/16 chain.I think the only solution, other than going to a short length of chain
(50′ or less) as I did for several years, is to modify the chain locker as
Tor and a few others have done. That provides a long enough fall for the
chain that castles are not a significant problem.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
Quote:I have 100′ of 3/8″ BBB and 200′ of nylon and I have a lot of problems
with castleling. One of us has to run to the V-Berth and poke the chain
mound so we can finish deanchoring. What a nuisance.
I’m wondering if 5/16 would not castle so readily? Anyone with that
experience??
Also, I’m wondering if I installed new chain it would also solve the
problem. I think my chain is getting rusty which may cause it not to fold
and bend as easily as it drops down into the locker. Would a lubricant
help??
I appreciate any suggestions.Joe,
s/v Half Moon________________________________
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Thanks, Paul.
10 years ago I installed Perko spreader lights. No exterior LEDs back
then, or at least I wasn’t aware of any. The Perko lamps are very bright
(35W Sealed Beam) and draw a lot of juice. However I don’t use the
spreader lights often, and then only for a few minutes – so efficiency has
never been an issue with these lights. The problem I’ve encountered is
bulb longevity. So far I’ve had 4 bulbs burn out, even with the limited
use. At $50 per bulb via WM, those $250 Signal Mate lights are looking
comparatively economical, assuming a typical LED service life. I just
bought my 4th Perko bulb, so I guess I won’t be changing the spreader
lights for at least another year.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Paul Lefebvre wrote:
Quote:John,I think the spelling was wrong and it is Kimberlite and they are part of
the MISEA Group. I see they also bought SCAD.Paul
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Pete,
Can you provide a URL for Kimerlite or a source. When I Google it I don’t
get an LED supplier.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Peaboy Walters wrote:
I have a pair of Dr LED’s spreader lights. Model name is KEVIN. LOVE them!
-p
On 1/7/12, Pete Dubler wrote:
I am impressed with the Kimerlite
Product line and am usi.g them for all the exterior lighting on our refitSent from my Android phone which is programed to entertain you with
creative
Quote:spelling corrections.
Original message
Subject: Re: LED spreader lightsPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Tor,
Really nice.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com2012/1/6 Silverheels
I thought some of you might be interested to see these photos. It was
(I’m embarrassed to admit) the first time I’ve flown Silverheels’ mizzen
staysail, which came with the boat but has remained in a cockpit locker
until now. I guess it was the first time – or at least one of very few
times – I had perfect conditions for it, with lots of time and plenty of
sea room. These photos were taken day after Christmas at 27°N x 72°W,
535 n miles into the Atlantic from Jacksonville (FL) Inlet.A few notes:
– The wind generator mounted on the forward side of the mizzen mast did
not interfere at all, but I shut it off anyway while the sail was up.– I shackled the mizzen staysail’s tack to a back-plated deck ring that
is normally home to a (fore)staysail sheet block. It just happened to be
in about the right place for this.– The single mizzen staysail sheet leads through a snatch block on the
end of the mizzen boom.– Hallett Sailmakers was apparently the original for this boat. My
hank-on staysail (which was originally a #3 yankee and was on the boat
when I got her, virtually brand new, probably never flown) was made by
the same loft. Superb workmanship like you can scarcely find today.– This is also the first time Silverheels has ever flown 5 sails: genoa,
staysail, mainsail, mizzen staysail & mizzen. Very cool! I’d have given
a lot for a motorboat to get a hundred yards away for some photos. I
know the dolphins that visited us that afternoon were impressed.Reef early,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor,
Congrats on a successful passage.
What route did you use and would you recommend it?Freezing my ass off in JAX (thought you would want to know). Still better
than my old berth on the Pax River.John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Well, most of it, anyway.
Original Message
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Tor,
Also consider Del City at http://www.delcity.net/. I also use GenuineDealz
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Yes, I saw that, but I need to cut the lengths when I install the
cables. Too hard to measure precisely in advance. I’ve got a lug
terminal masher, so it’s not a big deal.Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
Quote:
Original Message
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Alan,
That’s the boat. Still next to me in Oriental, which means I’m still in
Oriental and will be to after Thanksgiving.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:10 PM, skipmac wrote:
I did not mean to imply that electric power would not work at all. I have
read about a number of cruising boats that are running electric and have
made major ocean crossings including significant distances under power.But any system I have found that comes close to equivalent power to my W58
plus a generator to put out enough power to run it continuously, costs 2-3
times the price of a new diesel engine, transmission and V-drive together.The more affordable systems I have found have much less power and often
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Rich,
This instrument panel problem may be due to my going with the standard
Yanmar 80A alternator rather than the Balmar-type you have. I think the
alternator is generating some spikes or other problems for the board in the
panel. The panel is a flimsy affair, which I mistakenly had installed on
the bridge deck, where the Westerbecke panel was located. The Yanmar panel
should not be placed in a high traffic location such as I have done.The vibration I think is just an alignment problem.
The original damper plate problem (IMO) was a DOA part provided by Mack
Boring. If I’ve had another damper plate failure (won’t know until the
transmission is removed), I’ll be looking for an explanation. The
replacement damper plate, provided by Mack Boring at my cost, is one of the
R&D-type plates, not the spring loaded plate originally supplied.See: http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewVelvetDriveFailure.html
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 10:20 AM, wrote:
Quote:John,
Its odd that you have problems with your Yanmar instrument panel. I’ve
had no issues with mine, and my yacht club has two launches with much the
same engine and panel (4JH3TE) and have no issues. The club launches are
in continual service for 7 months each year. That’s over 2000 hrs/year.
I’m also not aware of any damper plate issues either. I picked this
engine because the club has such good luck with them.I have very little vibration all the way up to over 3000 RPM. Doors don’t
rattle and there’s no vibration when seated in the cockpit. I can feel
vibration when standing on the sole in the aft cabin, but I think this is
from prop-wash.Rich
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Alan,
I’m at Mile 28, Dismal Swamp Canal. I probably won’t be down to the Neuse
before Sunday. i will likely stop in the Oriental Marina at least to fuel
up. Hope the weather is decent for an outside trip from Beaufort to Cape
Fear early next week.
Hope your stay at Deaton’s is not too expensive. They did the install of
my walter RV26 2 years ago. Very satisfied.
Did you bump the bottom getting into Whitaker Creek. It was shoaling
pretty badly back then.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Alan wrote:
Bill Tice (Charisma) and I (UNABATED) are docked in Oriental. Well,
actually he’s docked in town, I am at Deatons.
We’ll be here until Friday (maybe Saturday – weather dependent).
If you all are around – maybe we can meet and toss back a few.
Alan
585-330-9151
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Phil,
I forgot to mention that if you do not use an installer certified by the
engine manufacturer you will likely have to pay a certified mechanic to
checkout the installation and perform a sea trial in order to receive a
warranty from the manufacturer.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 9:48 AM, John Stevenson wrote:
Phil,
I repowered with the 4JH4-AE. A number of other P424s have repowered with
this engine. I does not fit on the existing engine bed for the W60. I
think the W58 has the same engine mount dimensions as the W60, so the 4JH4
is not a drop in replacement for either engine. The Beta 60 is supposed to
fit on the W60 mounts (it was promoted as a drop-in replacement for that
engine). The Brit in NC who imports the Betas (don’t know if he does the
marinization or if that is done in the UK) will modify the engine as Pete
describes.
At least two other P424s have re-powered with a Cummins engine. I believe
there is only one yard that has done that repower and it is in Tidewater VA.
I know of one P424 that re-powered with a W71. That engine also fits on
the W60 engine mounts.A few years ago you could get a Beta for well below the cost of a Yanmar
or Westerbecke, but I believe the prices have gone up significantly because
of the weak dollar (Betas are priced in Pounds Sterling). If you buy a
Yanmar or Westerbecke through a yard that has an established relationship
with the distributors, they will likely discount the engine price to get
the installation labor.So my recommendations are:
1. If you are going to do the installation yourself or will hire an
independent mechanic the Beta is an excellent choice. You won’t have to
replace the existing engine bed unless it is in poor condition (many are).
Even then it just a matter of rebuilding the existing bed. Most of the
existing drive, water and exhaust hookups do not need to be modified. As
Pete said, it is a Kubota so parts and pumps do not depend on the Brit
importer. This is usually the least expensive way to do the re-power as
you can do a lot of the grunt work for which a yard will charge you $85/hr
or more and you should be able to hire an independent mechanic for less
than boatyard rates. Of course you may pay more for the engine going this
route.
2. If you are going to turn the job over to a boatyard, they will
likely try to direct you to the engine they have the most experience with
and with which they have the best margins (hopefully to be able to provide
you with a discount). If you go with other than a Westerbecke or the Beta
the repower will likely involve a good deal of fiberglass work to build new
engine mounts and the technical knowledge to get the alignment correct.I went the boatyard route because I wasn’t comfortable doing the repower
myself with or without an independent mechanic. It was expensive, but
there have been no later gotchas. Well one, Mack Boring delivered the
engine with a defective damper plate, which did not become apparent until
it nearly destroyed the transmission a few years later. Mack Boring’s
response was, “Sorry, out of warranty”. The boatyard did cover about 1/2
the cost of the transmission rebuild, even though they were not at fault.
Mack Boring delivered the engine, damper plate and transmission as a
complete package.Although it is an excellent engine I do not recommend a Yanmar repower as
Mack Boring considers their very limited warranty as their maximum after
installation commitment. I prefer to deal with companies who consider a
warranty their minimum commitment. Also the engine instruments (VDO) are
pure junk.Here is a link to my web page on the installation:
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewUpgradeRepower.htmRich Carter also has published a lot of information on his Yanmar
installation, which he did largely himself. You can find the link to his
website on the P424 website.You should also consider replacing your fuel tank when you have the engine
out. Most of the original fuel tanks are well past their service life.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Look at the Beta 50 as an option. See my articles on this. I picked the
beta over the yanmar. Beta is the best marinization of the Kubota line.
Parts are available everywhere, better warranty (Yanmar disclaims warranty
for example if you mount accessories like a refrigeration compressor). You
can also get the Beta 50 set-up with the water pump positioned so the
impeller is easy to replace in light of our engines going in “backwards”
Can’t do that with a Yanmar. If you missed my articles on this in BWS, I
can send you a reprint John.Pete
On 10/29/2011 5:10 PM, Unicorn wrote:
John,
Thanks for the information. I was actually looking at replacing with a
Yanmar. What size engine did you put in?
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Phil,
I repowered with the 4JH4-AE. A number of other P424s have repowered with
this engine. I does not fit on the existing engine bed for the W60. I
think the W58 has the same engine mount dimensions as the W60, so the 4JH4
is not a drop in replacement for either engine. The Beta 60 is supposed to
fit on the W60 mounts (it was promoted as a drop-in replacement for that
engine). The Brit in NC who imports the Betas (don’t know if he does the
marinization or if that is done in the UK) will modify the engine as Pete
describes.
At least two other P424s have re-powered with a Cummins engine. I believe
there is only one yard that has done that repower and it is in Tidewater VA.
I know of one P424 that re-powered with a W71. That engine also fits on
the W60 engine mounts.A few years ago you could get a Beta for well below the cost of a Yanmar or
Westerbecke, but I believe the prices have gone up significantly because of
the weak dollar (Betas are priced in Pounds Sterling). If you buy a Yanmar
or Westerbecke through a yard that has an established relationship with the
distributors, they will likely discount the engine price to get the
installation labor.So my recommendations are:
1. If you are going to do the installation yourself or will hire an
independent mechanic the Beta is an excellent choice. You won’t have to
replace the existing engine bed unless it is in poor condition (many are).
Even then it just a matter of rebuilding the existing bed. Most of the
existing drive, water and exhaust hookups do not need to be modified. As
Pete said, it is a Kubota so parts and pumps do not depend on the Brit
importer. This is usually the least expensive way to do the re-power as
you can do a lot of the grunt work for which a yard will charge you $85/hr
or more and you should be able to hire an independent mechanic for less
than boatyard rates. Of course you may pay more for the engine going this
route.
2. If you are going to turn the job over to a boatyard, they will likely
try to direct you to the engine they have the most experience with and with
which they have the best margins (hopefully to be able to provide you with
a discount). If you go with other than a Westerbecke or the Beta the
repower will likely involve a good deal of fiberglass work to build new
engine mounts and the technical knowledge to get the alignment correct.I went the boatyard route because I wasn’t comfortable doing the repower
myself with or without an independent mechanic. It was expensive, but
there have been no later gotchas. Well one, Mack Boring delivered the
engine with a defective damper plate, which did not become apparent until
it nearly destroyed the transmission a few years later. Mack Boring’s
response was, “Sorry, out of warranty”. The boatyard did cover about 1/2
the cost of the transmission rebuild, even though they were not at fault.
Mack Boring delivered the engine, damper plate and transmission as a
complete package.Although it is an excellent engine I do not recommend a Yanmar repower as
Mack Boring considers their very limited warranty as their maximum after
installation commitment. I prefer to deal with companies who consider a
warranty their minimum commitment. Also the engine instruments (VDO) are
pure junk.Here is a link to my web page on the installation:
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/ewUpgradeRepower.htmRich Carter also has published a lot of information on his Yanmar
installation, which he did largely himself. You can find the link to his
website on the P424 website.You should also consider replacing your fuel tank when you have the engine
out. Most of the original fuel tanks are well past their service life.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Pete Dubler wrote:
Look at the Beta 50 as an option. See my articles on this. I picked the
beta over the yanmar. Beta is the best marinization of the Kubota line.
Parts are available everywhere, better warranty (Yanmar disclaims warranty
for example if you mount accessories like a refrigeration compressor). You
can also get the Beta 50 set-up with the water pump positioned so the
impeller is easy to replace in light of our engines going in “backwards”
Can’t do that with a Yanmar. If you missed my articles on this in BWS, I
can send you a reprint John.Pete
On 10/29/2011 5:10 PM, Unicorn wrote:
John,
Thanks for the information. I was actually looking at replacing with a
Yanmar. What size engine did you put in?
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Phil,
Zahnisher’s in Solomons, MD did my repower. with a Yanmar. Very satisfied
with the work and support beyond the normal warranty period. Suggest you
choose your mechanic based on the engine with which you intend to repower.
That is, choose a mechanic who has done several repowers with the engine you
have decided on or choose a mechanic and then pick the engine with which he
has the most experience and a relationship with the distributor.
That’s certainly not the only way to do it, but if you are hiring a mechanic
do you want pay for his education on an engine he hasn’t installed before?
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Unicorn wrote:
Can anybody recommend a good mechanic to repower a 424 in the Annapolis, MD
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Patrick,
Just so you know you have company, my ACR is wired as yours was – alternator
output to the start bank, then to the house bank when the starting battery
voltage > 13.1 VDC. Like you, I thought it made sense to treat the start
battery as the critical bank.Then the original combiner (a Yandina, not Blue Sea) failed. In the middle
of the night my crew woke me to say the entire boat just went dark – chart
plotter, autopilot, instruments and lights. I checked the batteries and
sure enough the house bank was under 10.5 VDC and the starter bank was
really happy at 13.6 VDC. It took me a few minutes to realize the combiner
had failed and only the starter bank was getting a charge. Then I threw the
switch to combine the batteries on the backside of the combiner. A few
seconds later all of the electronics were back in operation and I could go
back to sleep.Strangely enough, when I replaced the failed Yandina with the Blue Sea ACR I
still kept the Starter bank as the primary for charging. I still wasn’t
convinced it was the wrong way to go. Subsequent thinking and reading on
this issue has convinced me I have it backwards, just haven’t gotten around
to re-wiring. I also bought the remote control switch for the Blue Sea ACR
to manually combine the batteries. That hasn’t been installed either. I do
like to think hard and long on these projects. Some would call it
procrastination. I prefer to think of it as the thoroughness of a
craftsman.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comOn Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters <
> wrote:Thanks for all the ideas let me try and answer the questions and provide a
bit more background.I originally thought you were supposed to put all the charge inputs on the
house and use the ACR to charge the starting battery as well. The guy here
at the local Chandlery convinced me it was more important to ensure the
starting battery was serviced first in case of a failure of the ACR, which
made sense to me. So we wired the alternator to the starting battery. We
now
definitely know it was wrong to have the 12V sensor wire and the charge
loads on different sides of the ACR. Read about that in the blog post. The
question now is it OK to rely on the ACR to charge the house battery…
everyone seems to say we shouldn’t do it that way (including Rich at
Balmar)
but I’ve not heard a technical reason why. Seems like as long as the ACR
combines you’re charging everything anyway… The ACR isnt’ a “smart”
combiner that uncombines when the 2nd bank is full.Anyway, I am thinking I’ll go that route anyway so we’re in compliance with
the normal way. In fact, I’m thinking I might get rid of the ACR from the
system and add a smarter combiner like the Balmar
Duo-Charge or
Xantrex Echo Charge<
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/auxiliary-battery-charger.aspxsomeone
else mentioned. They seem even smarter than the ACR. Going to
confirm with Monty today and make a decision before shipping for the day
ends.*Quent*, I don’t think it was a voltage drop issue. I used 2/0 wire all
under 12′ lengths. The original problem was a timing issue of the ACR not
combining the batteries while the regulator was sensing one bank and
charging another.*Pete*, the regulator is on the defaults now which is the Universal Factory
Program (UFP) which should be fine for all batteries. I’ll switch to the
flooded mode for sure, but the UFP shouldn’t cause any issues.Someone asked about the type of the starting battery. The new starting
battery is a sealed lead acid. It’s not an AGM.Like I mentioned I think we’re going to wire everything to the house bank
and use the ACR or a smarter combiner to charge the starting battery.Looks like the weather is bad till Thursday, so plenty of time to get this
right! 🙂
-p—
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 Hull #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com | @DeepPlayaOn Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Robert Fine wrote:
Hi Pat,
Alan is correct. Use the house bank for monitoring and charging, using
the
ACR to charge the start battery. After all, you can start the engine
with
the house bank, I hope, but not run ship’s loads with the engine start
battery.Also, make sure you have all the same type of batteries. Don’t do
flooded
for engine start and AGM for house. You may have mentioned the types, so
this could be an unuseful comment.Good luck. It’s good to have 660 hours – I have that (almost) in 3 – 4D
batteries and seldom go much below about 80% charged – with the new solar
panels, not even that. I have two group 31s for emergency start andradio
operation. Normally, I use the house bank exclusively with the other
tested
by starting the engine whenever I think about it.Bob
On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Alan wrote:
I have always have had the Alternator charging the house bank – it’s
the
biggest need.
When you think about it, you only crank the start battery for a fewseconds
and really don’t take much power from it. SO .. I set it up to charge
the
house bank – the ACR is set up to turn ON when it sees a voltage
condition
from the Alternator over a certain level. Because the sense wire is on
the
house bank. When that happens, the contacts close and charges the
starting
battery “at the same time”.
Probably 100% of the time the house bank is going to be at a much lower
level (discharged) then the starting battery ( unless your reallycranking
and having trouble starting the engine. In which case your probably
going
to
be using the battery switch to combine the the house bank and starting
bank
Quote:anyhow.
Alan— On Sun, 9/25/11, Patrick “Peaboy” Walters
wrote:Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum