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Hi Tor,
Although in the bad old days of 1978 hank on sails were still the norm, I think Pearson's philosophy of the ketch was a relatively large boat that could be comfortably managed by two people over a wide range of sailing conditions. The ketch, while carrying nearly the same sail as the sloop provides a rig with sails that are smaller and far easier to hand in when things get dicey. Pearson always designed and built pretty tough boats (the 10M as the exception because it competed with the Tartan 10), and they were, to my humble opinion, one of the 'sailor's yacht builders' (think the Ariel and Triton, both circumnavigated many times). I think their market was what is now filled by boats like Island Packet and Valiant and so forth.
I know that since I was a newbie I always wanted a ketch with a staysail knowing that as I got older it would get tougher to deal with the sails. So far, it hasn't happened, as I am still young at heart, mind, and mostly body. Ok, I'm a little creaky on some days… but you get my drift. My aunt and uncle sailed an 8 Meter into their 80's with a 60' foot mast carrying an ungodly amount of sail, in the thousands of square feet. Yet they still sailed up to the mooring and did some of the classic boat races on the sound with only the slightest amount of gnashing of teeth. True, it took a long time for my uncle to get the sail up at the end, but still it was amazing (as were the sazeracs afterwards).
All I'm saying is as we get older, we sail smarter. Or rather, that's what I'm hoping.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Tor,
The solent stay is just as John explained. You can also run double head sails downwind and have the boat balanced pretty well as they're close in size. I know people with them who never use the main jib. Imagine that. I'm guessing, when sailing the Solent, the sail changes are minimized using the device because the winds remain fairly steady.
All the advantages you mention for a staysail are correct – in fact, I have a storm staysail that has a reef point! I would be heartily terrified to need that puppy reefed, I have to tell you. Another advantage of the staysail v. the solent is that managing it in bad weather is easier – it's a smaller sail, it's closer to things to hold on to, and it makes the overall rig more balanced and easier to manage for a singlehander. I,personally, am not that fond of furling a big sail part way for extended periods of time -sure for a quick sail down the Long Island Sound, fine, but for days or weeks even, not so much. Out or in. The staysail can be deployed all the time, except when going dead downwind. Then it's just annoying.
Here's a tip – I got new sail covers. It turns out that the old mizzen sail cover works spectacularly as the staysail cover and I leave the whole mess hanked on all the time.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Ah, thank you John. I really was ignorant of that and I'm glad to learn more. Having the Solent stay removable for day sails makes all the difference, though is seems an awfully long wire to move aside – it must overlap the rail by a few feet – and cumbersome if it carries roller furling.
Offhand I can think of 3 advantages to the staysail: (1) The extra slot created adds power to the rig when flown with the genoa – Bob says it gives his boat an extra knot, (2) you can often tack a genoa thru that slot so the wire can remain in place much of the time, and (3) the staysail as a heavy weather headsail – especially as a storm jib when deep-reefed or replaced with a dedicated storm jib – is closer to the boat's center of gravity, a more stable placement of that sail's force. I'm curious. What advantages of the Solent rig over the double headsail (Bob's muahaha “cutter ketch”) rig caused you to choose that instead?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I still say cutter or cutter rigged ketch is acceptable. I will call it that to my, well, for a good long time! Muahahahahaha!
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Joe,
I'm not sure there is an alternative to the Solent rig, which seems to be in a class by itself. What I'm setting up on my boat is a double headsail ketch rig, what some (mistakenly) call a “cutter ketch.” In other words, I'm installing an inner forestay on my ketch-rigged boat to carry a staysail, just as a cutter-rigged sailboat has an inner forestay that carries a staysail. In many cases, this inner forestay requires running backstays to “balance” the forward pulling force it puts on the mainmast when the boat's working hard to windward, since it attached to the mast roughly in between the spreaders and the masthead.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
My running backs are 3/8 Spectra with a 7/16 regular Stayset line in the tackle. They are the only high-tech line on the boat. If I were to make them out of cable, though, I'd probably use 3/16th inch, like the rigging for the mizzen.
Really, with our masts, short and stout as they are I think it would have to be extreme weather to even consider using the running backs. Mine are just aft of the lowers and are usually a little slack.
In 38 kts with just the mizzen and staysail on a close reach there was no mast pumping or even any bend by virtue of the fact that the leeward shrouds were still relatively tight.
But as you saw, my inner forestay is just a bit above the lower shrouds.
I'm glad you like my measuring method.
Bob
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Yes, the main running backs, for balancing the mast bend of an inner forestay flying a staysail. Thanks, Bob, that's the length answer I was seeking. How did you come up with that? Is it a rigging axiom, or just what makes sense to you? Also, what wire diameter seems right for that?Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
Which running backs – the main or mizzen? If the main, it is the distance from the hound to about 3' off the deck at the caprail. Just enough room for a big-assed block and tackle.
Bob
PS, if the mizzen, from the masthead to about 4' above the aft corner cleat.
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:TYPOI meant to ask, “What is the diameter and length of the wire portion” of your running backstays?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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That's the one!
BobOn Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:08 PM, pat noordsij < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Ultimate Sole?
– p
On 3/11/09 8:04 PM, Robert Fine wrote:
Hi Phil,
The people who make the really great cabin sole varnish (I forgot the name) also make a non-skid varnish.
Bob
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Philippe Fontaine < ([email][/email])
Hi All,
I have just refinished my companionway laddars. I am hoping to
find something more durable than the 2'' non-skid tape I used when
I last did this job. Do any of you have an approach to recommend
that has good anti-skid properties, looks good (doesn't cover all
the varnish), and is durable?
Thanks,
Phil Fontaine
Aurora—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Phil,
The people who make the really great cabin sole varnish (I forgot the name) also make a non-skid varnish.
Bob
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Philippe Fontaine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi All,
I have just refinished my companionway laddars. I am hoping to find something more durable than the 2'' non-skid tape I used when I last did this job. Do any of you have an approach to recommend that has good anti-skid properties, looks good (doesn't cover all the varnish), and is durable?
Thanks,
Phil Fontaine
Aurora—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
I concur with Tor – a good sealant without the adhesive would be best. If you don't like Life Caulk, there is a good product from SikaFlex.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Stainless, or more properly, corrosion resistant steel works by oxidizing the chromium in the steel at the surface. Polishing, in many cases, removes the oxide and actually allows a faster corrosion. A better process is what is called 'passivating' that uses a paste with nitric acid in it to actually remove the iron oxides and present a clean chrome surface to oxidize instead. Chrome has an extremely tenacious oxide, like aluminum only shiner.
Bob
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Patrick Walters < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Do you plan to polish the fitting yourself? The reason I ask is that I thought (and I could be wrong) that the reason to polish stainless steel was to remove as many imperfections as possible to prevent surface corrosion and pitting.Now at $70 you could buy one of these every two years so I guess its less of an issue, but I'm curious what you all think about the polishing and corrosion. I think I learned that at the Brion Toss rigging class I took, but I'm not feeling very vague on that.
Thanks,
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com
________________________________________
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Thanks, Thatcher, for the resounding recommendation. It just looks like a place you could set a while and enjoy. I'll keep you posted on how it goes. Since I have to wait until November to go too far south it may be a pleasant place to while a way a few days.
Bob
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Thatcher Stone < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Robert:-
Charleston is an amazing and fascinating place. In 1982 I had the pleasure of staying in a “haunted house” on Lagere, I think it is spelled, St. Everything south of Main Street at the “4 Corners of the law,” represented by Federal, State, Municipal Court Houses and Moral- a church) pre dates the American Revolution. It is without a doubt one of the most interesting cities in the country from an historical perspective. My ex and I used to go every year for the Spoleto Festival in May, a cultural extravaganza that includes symphony, opera, drama and the like at every venue in town. Plan your trip for Spoleto but in any event don’t miss Charleston. Irin is the expert I am sure, but I’m a big fan. And a Yankee to boot!
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Irin,
I'm enjoying the cover immensely as I live on the boat and in two years has paid for itself. Since it's dark most of the winter anyway, the constant twilight beneath it is ok. However, now that the days are longer, I can't wait to put it back in storage.
I've been through Charleston a number of times crewing on deliveries. I definitely want to stop there – it looks really interesting. We'll keep in touch. It looks like a great place.
Peter Weeden is they guy I bought the cover from – I had forgotten his name. An interesting guy. Anyway, it was a beautiful fall day and the drive up and down was spectacular.
Your route is the one I want to take – exactly the same, although if the weather is really crappy I may duck in in Georgia or whatever. I expect to take a couple of months to get to the Bahamas only because I can and there are so many places I want to stop and anchor or see that it will take some time. I may see if I can pick up some crew in Beaufort – it really is a sailor's town. Hopefully, like Tor, she'll be young and beautiful. She'll definitely be single.
My time in Ft. Lauderdale will be as short as possible. Although I'd like to stay for a night in Travis McGee's (F 18) slip, there is nothing else appealing about Ft. Lauderdale except the West Marine store which is amazing. My personal opinion of Ft. Lauderdale is that if one were to go about designing the ugliest city in the world they could not have made it as ugly as Ft. Lauderdale. I see now why people go there for the beach and stay as drunk as possible for their entire stay. In August (admittedly not the top of the season) it is not only so ugly it hurts the eyes and makes the brain swim, but it is blazingly, meltingly, heart stoppingly, soul suckingly hot.
I'm sure there are those of you who really like Ft. Lauderdale. To you, I apologize. But not too strongly. 🙂
Regards,
Bob
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 10:40 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi Bob,
Glad to hear the cover is in good hands. Hope you are getting good use from it. If you ever decide to sail south as a sailing trip, you might want to stop off at Charleston, SC. I live in Mt Pleasant, SC 10 minutes from downtown Charleston. A big harbor and many marinas in the area.
If you have never visited Charleston, it is worth the stop. Should you want any crew, I have sailed Ketch Ya Later from Stamford, CT to Ft Lauderdale in the fall, and back to Stamford, CT each spring for eight consecutive years. Going south I go offshore, then duck into Norfolk, take the Intercoastal Waterway anchoring off the waterway two nights to barbeque. The third morning I stop at Beaufort, NC. Visit the sailing museum, fuel and go offshore the next morning until reaching my destination.
Going back from Ft Lauderdale I go offshore seven days around the clock to Stamford, CT. Great experience.
Say hello to the guys at Fairclough for me. They are good guys. Was the guy in Vermont Peter Weedeen? He was a sailing friend from Wilmington, VT/
Irin Paris
843-881-1648 (home)
843-530-3380 (cell)
In a message dated 3/10/2009 12:29:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, () writes:Hi Irin,
I can't imagine there are many people named 'Paris' with Pearson 424s. As it turns out, I think I have your Fairclough cover, which I purchased a couple of years ago from a guy in Vermont. They remembered you at Fairclough and built a replacement frame for me.
How about that?
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession.
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Irin,
I can't imagine there are many people named 'Paris' with Pearson 424s. As it turns out, I think I have your Fairclough cover, which I purchased a couple of years ago from a guy in Vermont. They remembered you at Fairclough and built a replacement frame for me.
How about that?
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
What an incredibly sad story – especially considering the current state of the boating market – even the mega-yachts are staying put because no one can afford to use or charter them.
There are, indeed, some real pricks in this world.
Bob
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Stephen,
There are a million things to look for, not just for old 424s and 422s, so make sure give the boats a thorough going over. From my experience, I'd check the following:
1. Over all hull condition – by this I mean check for cracking and crazing along the cabin top to side/fore deck connections, also on the hull between the caprail and waterline. For the former, there will be some because of the technology used with gelcoat when the boats were built. On the hull, though, it means the boat was Imron-ed or Awlgripped and then was pounded fairly hard against fenders on a dock. Awlgrip doesn't flex like gelcoat and will crack and pull the gelcoat away leaving really hard to repair cracks. Think repainting the topsides.
2. Check the mainmast step. Is it corroded? How about the foot? If it's not coated you'll see the corrosion. It's a pain in the butt to replace.
3. If there is access to the deep part of the bilge, check it out. It shouldn't be disgusting. A little dirty is ok, but not lots of oil/grease.
4. If the same owner has had the boat for a while, the hoses on the head and engine will have probably been replaced. Check them. They are all a pain to work with.
5. Make sure all the through-hull valves work. The big ones are located in awful places. Take the time to see they work.
6. Check the rigging carefully. You can't do a 100% job without non-destructive dye testing but if it's heavily corroded or the turnbuckles are bent or there are meat hooks on the rigging wire, that's bad. It means there are worse things lurking.
7. Are there dents in either mast? You'd be surprised what can happen to masts in a yard.
8. Particular to the 424 – check the tabbing in the v-berth under the boards. Many owners have reported that breaking away in heavy seas. It should have been repaired or should still be sound.
9. Remove the engine cover. Check the top of the fuel tank. Is there rust? Is there diesel fuel underneath? If the tank is original, it may mean a big messy job to replace it.
10. Finally, how does the boat smell? All boats have a smell – a mixture of fuel and oil, people, mold and mildew, and any number of other things. It should not smell strongly of any of them, especially mold and mildew. Check carefully around the portlights for evidence of leakage. Check in the cabinets behind the settees for mold and mildew. Look as far as you can under the floorboards for same. You can clean a bilge of it's smells, but mold is extraordinarily hard to get rid of. It hasn't lasted 3 billion years because it's easy to kill.
None of this stuff is fatal to a boat purchase. The 42x series of boats sport a very strong hull and rig. You can repair or replace almost anything else in it. The question will be do you want to financially or physically? Don't be dazzled by loads of equipment, either, unless you're sure that it works and it's something you'll use. For instance, if you're going to do US coastal cruising, you don't really need a watermaker. Even not using one is expensive in maintenance.
One of the best things you can do while looking at these boats is to bring a current owner along or a friend that doesn't like boats all that much. They will be your 'grounding' device.
I've looked at 424's from seriously disgusting to sublime and they all have similar asking prices. If you're handy, they're a great boat to work on. They are simply made and strong. I never took more than about 1/2 hour to judge the condition of the boat.
I fell in love with Pelican literally minutes. Even though the cabin was torn apart, the owner's care for the boat was obvious. She had no real equipment (broken knotmeter, depth, and speed), no radio/cd player, and an amazingly ancient VHF radio. But she had not been horribly customized either, so she was a tabula rasa – a blank slate to make the way I want.
Everyone has their own opinions. Make sure the previous owner's opinions are ones you can live with, because they are often too hard to change.
It goes without saying, check the sails and other stuff you would normally check for a boat purchase. But that will all fall under extended inspection of the boat. You can eliminate many boats before that.
Good luck with your search! I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we'll welcome you with open arms to the group!
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Tor,
I plan to write a book, actually, but not just about bottom paint. Here's the site and the price delivered: $125/gal. Now, I happen to know Frank, I think, and if you tell him that you were recommended by a customer he'll give you a discount, maybe. I expect to get one, too, if I use the paint this year, as I've purchased from him for a number of years. Check this site: http://www.supershipbottom.com/
Bob
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Bob,
Good info. You should write a book! How much $$ is that Ship Superbottom paint?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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